baker continues to blame the kids

[goonys evil twin]

 

Agreed, but I think a lot of our vets are overpaid. I'm not going to hold them to the standards their contracts set. I blame Hendry for that. Certain guys are just flat out underachieving (Ramirez, Prior, Wood, Pierre). Others are doing as good as they can do but are getting paid too much to do it, so it looks worse (Jones, Perez, Rusch).

 

You won't hold vets accountable to the standards of their contract but you will criticize young players who struggle when they enter the big leagues?

[srbin84]

 

Agreed, but I think a lot of our vets are overpaid. I'm not going to hold them to the standards their contracts set. I blame Hendry for that. Certain guys are just flat out underachieving (Ramirez, Prior, Wood, Pierre). Others are doing as good as they can do but are getting paid too much to do it, so it looks worse (Jones, Perez, Rusch).

 

You won't hold vets accountable to the standards of their contract but you will criticize young players who struggle when they enter the big leagues?

 

No, I said guys like Ramirez, Prior, Wood and Pierre flat out stink. I'm not going to pile on Jones most of all because I think he is doing what he has always done. You can't down him for that. Perez and Rusch aren't major league players (maybe last guy in the pen or last guy on the bench at best ). This seemed obvious a year or two ago. Like I said with the rookies, they either should be playing better (in which case I blame them) or they aren't that good. If it is the second circumstance, I don't blame them. I blame Hendry and the scouts. You're right about that. I'm not going to blame a guy for doing the best he can do if that happens to be bad. I blame the people that put him on the team.

[srbin84]

And my biggest concern about our rookies is the lack of improvement most of them show. They've either played worse from the start of their careers until now or they've been exactly the same as they played their first game.

[goonys evil twin]

And my biggest concern about our rookies is the lack of improvement most of them show. They've either played worse from the start of their careers until now or they've been exactly the same as they played their first game.

 

Maybe you just don't understand player development in baseball. Players don't just step onto the field and improve in a straight line. Almost all of them suffer setbacks. To "blame" a rookie, or get upset with a young player for experience normal setbacks in his career is just plain old illogical.

[srbin84]

And my biggest concern about our rookies is the lack of improvement most of them show. They've either played worse from the start of their careers until now or they've been exactly the same as they played their first game.

 

Maybe you just don't understand player development in baseball. Players don't just step onto the field and improve in a straight line. Almost all of them suffer setbacks. To "blame" a rookie, or get upset with a young player for experience normal setbacks in his career is just plain old illogical.

 

Out of like 10 guys, why can't we have a couple who just come up, start playing well or get good quick? I'm sick of watching the other teams have guys like that while we have to wait for what may or may not ever come. Sometimes you have to. Not everybody is going to burst on the scene but some should be.

[goonys evil twin]

Out of like 10 guys, why can't we have a couple who just come up, start playing well or get good quick? I'm sick of watching the other teams have guys like that while we have to wait for what may or may not ever come. Sometimes you have to. Not everybody is going to burst on the scene but some should be.

 

Very few burst onto the scene. The Cubs got scene bursters with Wood and Prior. But they abused the heck out of them and couldn't keep them healthy. That's one of the big problems with devoting the vast majority of your minor league system to pitching. Pitching is unreliable. And who are all these other teams with first year guys tearing it up from the outset? It just doesn't happen all that frequently. The difference is most other teams don't send a guy down for struggling and blame their struggles on the kid. The Yankees for instance have an impotent Melky out there everyday and he's as much of an OF butcher as any Cubs fielder.

[srbin84]

Out of like 10 guys, why can't we have a couple who just come up, start playing well or get good quick? I'm sick of watching the other teams have guys like that while we have to wait for what may or may not ever come. Sometimes you have to. Not everybody is going to burst on the scene but some should be.

 

Very few burst onto the scene. The Cubs got scene bursters with Wood and Prior. But they abused the heck out of them and couldn't keep them healthy. That's one of the big problems with devoting the vast majority of your minor league system to pitching. Pitching is unreliable. And who are all these other teams with first year guys tearing it up from the outset? It just doesn't happen all that frequently. The difference is most other teams don't send a guy down for struggling and blame their struggles on the kid. The Yankees for instance have an impotent Melky out there everyday and he's as much of an OF butcher as any Cubs fielder.

 

Just about every team has at least one. Let's look at our division for example:

 

Elizardo Ramirez, SP, Reds

Prince Fielder, 1B, Brewers

Ronny Paulino, C, Pirates

Anthony Reyes, SP, Cardinals

Adam Wainwright, RP, Cardinals

 

Ok, so the Astros also don't have one. I could go through the other divisions and find similar players, but I think you get my point.

[fromthestretch]

Out of like 10 guys, why can't we have a couple who just come up, start playing well or get good quick? I'm sick of watching the other teams have guys like that while we have to wait for what may or may not ever come. Sometimes you have to. Not everybody is going to burst on the scene but some should be.

 

Very few burst onto the scene. The Cubs got scene bursters with Wood and Prior. But they abused the heck out of them and couldn't keep them healthy. That's one of the big problems with devoting the vast majority of your minor league system to pitching. Pitching is unreliable. And who are all these other teams with first year guys tearing it up from the outset? It just doesn't happen all that frequently. The difference is most other teams don't send a guy down for struggling and blame their struggles on the kid. The Yankees for instance have an impotent Melky out there everyday and he's as much of an OF butcher as any Cubs fielder.

 

Just about every team has at least one. Let's look at our division for example:

 

Elizardo Ramirez, SP, Reds

Prince Fielder, 1B, Brewers

Ronny Paulino, C, Pirates

Anthony Reyes, SP, Cardinals

Adam Wainwright, RP, Cardinals

 

Ok, so the Astros also don't have one. I could go through the other divisions and find similar players, but I think you get my point.

 

Murton and Cedeno came up as rookies last year and played very well. Like many before them, they have struggled at times in their second season.

 

Most of the guys you listed will have their struggles, as well. Some of them could end this season with mediocre numbers. Anthony Reyes has thrown a total of 33.3 innings in his career. I'm not ready to name him Rookie of the Year just yet.

[Iceblink]

Perhaps a lighter workload on Prior and Wood in 2003 would've allowed two rookies to be eased instead of being depended on. Only two rookies - Murton and Cedeno - are being depended on for any offense.

 

Baker can't pretend that this isn't at least partly self-inflicted.

[srbin84]

Perhaps a lighter workload on Prior and Wood in 2003 would've allowed two rookies to be eased instead of being depended on. Only two rookies - Murton and Cedeno - are being depended on for any offense.

 

Baker can't pretend that this isn't at least partly self-inflicted.

 

We'll never know if saving Prior and Wood the 10 or so innings they pitched extra in blowout games would have made the difference between them staying healthy since then or not. It was nevertheless stupid, but with modern medicine the way it is now, I just cannot see how anyone could rationally say that he ruined their careers by doing that. If nothing changes for those guys five years from now, are those same people going to give them a lifetime mulligan because of 2003? I don't see many/any others in baseball doing it now, so I doubt anyone will then.

[abuck1220]

boy, the kids just killed the cubs again tonight.

[barryfoote]

And my biggest concern about our rookies is the lack of improvement most of them show. They've either played worse from the start of their careers until now or they've been exactly the same as they played their first game.

 

Maybe you just don't understand player development in baseball. Players don't just step onto the field and improve in a straight line. Almost all of them suffer setbacks. To "blame" a rookie, or get upset with a young player for experience normal setbacks in his career is just plain old illogical.

 

I tottally agree with you on this one. Not all players come in and are immediate factors.

 

Ryne Sandberg's numbers for his first two full seasons

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP

1982 22 CHC NL 156 635 103 172 33 5 7 54 32 12 36 90 .271 .312 .372 236 7 5 3 4 7

1983 23 CHC NL 158 633 94 165 25 4 8 48 37 11 51 79 .261 .316 .351 222 7 5 3 3 8

 

Greg Maddux's first year numbers

Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP

1987 21 CHC NL 6 14 30 27 1 1 2 0 155.7 181 111 97 17 74 101 4 4 701 13 7 5.61 4.29 77 1.638

 

 

The one good thing that can come from this dismal season is that the Cubs have the opportunity to blow this whole thing up and play the rookies so that they can develop.

[CuseCubFan69]

 

Blow the whole damned thing up, and start over !!

 

But you have to blow it up from the top or else all is moot. Baker and his staff HAVE to go at the very very least.

 

What'd I say ???

 

I just wanted to make sure your whole and my top were the same thing. :D

Man....that sentence could be taken in many ways.

[frostwyrm]

This BS from Dusty about not having "his" team is nothing new. Last year Dusty said "my teams" don't have bad fundamentals, and bitched about all the players who came up through other systems that didn't emphasize fundamentals, which is funny, because now he bitches about having too many homegrown players.

[Andy]

boy, the kids just killed the cubs again tonight.

Bring in more experienced vets to get this team rolling. I hear Russ Ortiz is available.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

boy, the kids just killed the cubs again tonight.

Bring in more experienced vets to get this team rolling. I hear Russ Ortiz is available.

 

Nope, he signed with the O's.

[Andy]

boy, the kids just killed the cubs again tonight.

Bring in more experienced vets to get this team rolling. I hear Russ Ortiz is available.

 

Nope, he signed with the O's.

Damn

[abuck1220]

baker will be all over cedeno's error.

[TB_11]

Just about every team has at least one. Let's look at our division for example:

 

Elizardo Ramirez, SP, Reds

Prince Fielder, 1B, Brewers

Ronny Paulino, C, Pirates

Anthony Reyes, SP, Cardinals

Adam Wainwright, RP, Cardinals

 

Ok, so the Astros also don't have one. I could go through the other divisions and find similar players, but I think you get my point.

 

Ricky Nolasco, P, Marlins

 

There's our guy who's burst onto the scene.

 

And my biggest concern about our rookies is the lack of improvement most of them show. They've either played worse from the start of their careers until now or they've been exactly the same as they played their first game.

 

Neither Ronny and Murton has had 400 PAs in the majors yet. It would be safe to say that they are still in the start of their careers.

 

If you want to point a finger, point it at the hitting coaches who have emphasized aggressive hitting over patience. Murton's BBs/PA have basically been halved from ~.11 in April to ~.06 in June.

[soapy]

Cedeno and Murton have played the equivalent of about a 1/2 season in the bigs. I'm not really sure why people are surprised when they struggle.

[gflore34]

Last night I attended the Astros-Tigers game (Clemens was far from dominating however, he pitched well, allowing 2ER over 6+ IP to a very good Tigers lineup) and something Leyland did exhibited the vast difference between a Manager of his style vs. Baker' style. So here’s the situation, bottom 6th Craig Monroe facing Dan Wheeler with two Clemens' base runners. Monroe crushes one, off the bat it looks like a 3 HR apparently, Monroe thought so to for, he paused at the plate, momentarily admiring it. Turns out the ball hit just below the yellow line at the top of the LF wall and Monroe legs out a two run double. Top of the next inning, in Monroe's place, there's a new LF'er, I believe this is an example of Leyland holding the players accountable for their actions. As a result, this Tiger team has played very well, no missed count-off men, getting doubled-off on fly balls, etc. leading to the best record in Baseball. Baker, on the other hand, would make some creative excuse for Monroe' play rather than hold him accountable for his actions. It’s no coincidence the Cubs are 20 games under .500 and stinking while, the Tigers are 28 games over .500 and rising.

[goonys evil twin]

Dusty would have kept Monroe out there, and made excuses for him, because he's been in the league for 6 years, which is all that matters to Dusty, and he's approaching 30. If it was a younger player Dusty would have talked about how many young mistakes they make.

[BigbadB]

Last night I attended the Astros-Tigers game (Clemens was far from dominating however, he pitched well, allowing 2ER over 6+ IP to a very good Tigers lineup) and something Leyland did exhibited the vast difference between a Manager of his style vs. Baker' style. So here’s the situation, bottom 6th Craig Monroe facing Dan Wheeler with two Clemens' base runners. Monroe crushes one, off the bat it looks like a 3 HR apparently, Monroe thought so to for, he paused at the plate, momentarily admiring it. Turns out the ball hit just below the yellow line at the top of the LF wall and Monroe legs out a two run double. Top of the next inning, in Monroe's place, there's a new LF'er, I believe this is an example of Leyland holding the players accountable for their actions. As a result, this Tiger team has played very well, no missed count-off men, getting doubled-off on fly balls, etc. leading to the best record in Baseball. Baker, on the other hand, would make some creative excuse for Monroe' play rather than hold him accountable for his actions. It’s no coincidence the Cubs are 20 games under .500 and stinking while, the Tigers are 28 games over .500 and rising.

 

By the way, Murton and Jones are both better players than Craig Monroe. A platoon of Craig Monroe and Marcus Thames? Probably not. But, Craig Monroe by himself? Absolutely.

[RegulusBlue]

Top of the next inning, in Monroe's place, there's a new LF'er, I believe this is an example of Leyland holding the players accountable for their actions.

 

I'll sort of agree with you here. While Leyland does hold his players accountable for everything, its not that Dusty never does. The main problem is that Dusty only holds those players who aren't his favorites accountable.

 

For instance, Neifi had a bonehead that cost us a game against the Braves right after the bunt with two down in the ninth, and Baker came to his defense, and his playing time didn't suffer hardly at all.

Jacque Jones can't throw a ball to home to save his life, but he still makes every start out in RF despite numerous circus throws and horrid ABs vs. LHP and RHP.

Aramis dogs it nearly once a game whether at the plate or on the basepaths, and Dusty never takes action. Our flaws become pulsing boils, and one third of the team is not held accountable.

 

On the other hand, there are players who receive terrible treatment after similar mistakes. Walker gets benched repeatedly for Neifi, despite destroying him at the plate, and being just fine in the 2B slot. Hell, during interleague Walker had to bat 8th while Neifi batted 2nd!

Murton is another player who has recently been blamed for everything, and has clearly seen the end of his starting days despite his replacement being worse. He's been above average in left by every defensive metric (BTT and BP). He's slumping at the plate now with no chance to bust out of it because he'll never play again. Just last night he became our pinch runner!

Theriot became another victim of Dusty, but no one knows how he plays! He never got to play in the first place!

 

Dusty treats "his players" great, but everyone else is an excuse and gets benched. Accountability is uneven for the Cubs, and I have my own theories as to why certain players get special treatment.

[Irrelevant Dude]

Accountability is uneven for the Cubs, and I have my own theories as to why certain players get special treatment.

Me too.