The Corey Patterson Thread

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Oh well, all we really did was throw away our 1998 1st round pick. Just like we did in 94, 96, 97, 99, 2000 (maybe), 2002 (thrice), 2003...

[sweetpeteman]

So far tonight: 1-2, BB (with bases loaded, 2 out...), 2 RBI

[David]

Oh well, all we really did was throw away our 1998 1st round pick. Just like we did in 94, 96, 97, 99, 2000 (maybe), 2002 (thrice), 2003...

 

2006....

[ToupeeOnFire]

Corey Patterson's success is a huge indictment against this coaching staff. Basically, what they were telling him last year was: "Dude, cut down on your strike-outs, don't worry about taking pitches, just make contact...you know, like that Pierre kid in Florida. You're fast, so don't try to drive the ball, knock it into the ground, like Wille Mays Hayes in that movie."

 

Instead of realizing what they had - a young athletic kid with power and speed, but with limited strike-zone judgement - they tried to turn him into their idea of a lead-off hitter.

 

Unfortunately, their idea of a lead-off hitter (apart from being fast) is not necessarily somebody who can get on base, but somebody who makes contact. And since Patterson is fast, he must bat lead-off, because where else are you going to bat a speedy guy? Like bad organizations tend to do, they simply could not accept his limitations, but tried repeatedly, despite much evidence to the contrary, to make him into a player that he simply wasn't...as established over six professional seasons spanning the major and minor leagues. Go figure.

 

Oh wait, that's right, he's uncoachable and unteachable (booo!). As if these coaches (manager included) have shown even the slightest ability to coach or teach anyone (other than maybe to hack away at everything and make outs on the basepaths).

[Jazz]

oh dear god, lou brock II

[Guest]

oh dear god, lou brock II

No, for Lou Brock the Cubs received a 20 game winner.

 

For Corey we received a guy who is failing in his attempt to repeat A-Ball.

[Jazz]

more along the idea of the cubs letting out a potential worldly CF who we couldnt harness suceed somewhere else.

 

slightly scary though:

 

Brock's first full year in STL : .288/.345/.445

Patterson in 06: .291/.341/.471

 

plus patterson is on pace to steal over 50 bases, maybe not lou brock's 63 in 65', but all the more reason to draw a comparison.

[Andy]

The Brock/Patterson comparison is not a wild one. Both were speedy guys who were simply awful as Cubs (in CPatt's case only in the latter days) and became great as soon as they left.

 

But will CPatt become a HOFer? Probably not.

[TXCubsFan]

Corey Patterson's success is a huge indictment against this coaching staff. Basically, what they were telling him last year was: "Dude, cut down on your strike-outs, don't worry about taking pitches, just make contact...you know, like that Pierre kid in Florida. You're fast, so don't try to drive the ball, knock it into the ground, like Wille Mays Hayes in that movie."

 

Instead of realizing what they had - a young athletic kid with power and speed, but with limited strike-zone judgement - they tried to turn him into their idea of a lead-off hitter.

 

Unfortunately, their idea of a lead-off hitter (apart from being fast) is not necessarily somebody who can get on base, but somebody who makes contact. And since Patterson is fast, he must bat lead-off, because where else are you going to bat a speedy guy? Like bad organizations tend to do, they simply could not accept his limitations, but tried repeatedly, despite much evidence to the contrary, to make him into a player that he simply wasn't...as established over six professional seasons spanning the major and minor leagues. Go figure.

 

Oh wait, that's right, he's uncoachable and unteachable (booo!). As if these coaches (manager included) have shown even the slightest ability to coach or teach anyone (other than maybe to hack away at everything and make outs on the basepaths).

 

I blame Patterson. CPatt was making stupid swings at some really bad pitches, and looked worse than most rookies. Doesn't matter if you're batting 1st or 7th. I can't blame the coaching staff for his stubborn attitude. If Pie is trying to learn patience at the plate at age 21 in Iowa, what does that say about Corey's willingness to learn?

[illiniguy]

Corey Patterson's success is a huge indictment against this coaching staff. Basically, what they were telling him last year was: "Dude, cut down on your strike-outs, don't worry about taking pitches, just make contact...you know, like that Pierre kid in Florida. You're fast, so don't try to drive the ball, knock it into the ground, like Wille Mays Hayes in that movie."

 

Instead of realizing what they had - a young athletic kid with power and speed, but with limited strike-zone judgement - they tried to turn him into their idea of a lead-off hitter.

 

Unfortunately, their idea of a lead-off hitter (apart from being fast) is not necessarily somebody who can get on base, but somebody who makes contact. And since Patterson is fast, he must bat lead-off, because where else are you going to bat a speedy guy? Like bad organizations tend to do, they simply could not accept his limitations, but tried repeatedly, despite much evidence to the contrary, to make him into a player that he simply wasn't...as established over six professional seasons spanning the major and minor leagues. Go figure.

 

Oh wait, that's right, he's uncoachable and unteachable (booo!). As if these coaches (manager included) have shown even the slightest ability to coach or teach anyone (other than maybe to hack away at everything and make outs on the basepaths).

 

I blame Patterson. CPatt was making stupid swings at some really bad pitches, and looked worse than most rookies. Doesn't matter if you're batting 1st or 7th. I can't blame the coaching staff for his stubborn attitude. If Pie is trying to learn patience at the plate at age 21 in Iowa, what does that say about Corey's willingness to learn?

I doubt Pie ever has a season as good as the one Patterson is having. Patterson was a better prospect than Pie and odds are will be a better pro. Especially since he isn't being coached by the the cubs and Pie will be.

[cubfan1955]

I doubt Pie ever has a season as good as the one Patterson is having. Patterson was a better prospect than Pie and odds are will be a better pro. Especially since he isn't being coached by the the cubs and Pie will be.

Point taken about the coaches but...Patterson is having a good season by Corey Patterson standards but he isn't have that great of a season other than SBs. To think Pie will never match the year Patterson is having...is depressing. I don't think it's asking too much for a teams top position prospect to have a better year than what Patterson is having.

[illiniguy]

I doubt Pie ever has a season as good as the one Patterson is having. Patterson was a better prospect than Pie and odds are will be a better pro. Especially since he isn't being coached by the the cubs and Pie will be.

Point taken about the coaches but...Patterson is having a good season by Corey Patterson standards but he isn't have that great of a season other than SBs. To think Pie will never match the year Patterson is having...is depressing. I don't think it's asking too much for a teams top position prospect to have a better year than what Patterson is having.

Well really I don't think he will. I think EPatt has a better shot at being a productive big leaguer for us. We have a poor track record with players with Pie's skill set.

[Guest]

I doubt Pie ever has a season as good as the one Patterson is having. Patterson was a better prospect than Pie and odds are will be a better pro. Especially since he isn't being coached by the the cubs and Pie will be.

Point taken about the coaches but...Patterson is having a good season by Corey Patterson standards but he isn't have that great of a season other than SBs. To think Pie will never match the year Patterson is having...is depressing. I don't think it's asking too much for a teams top position prospect to have a better year than what Patterson is having.

Well really I don't think he will. I think EPatt has a better shot at being a productive big leaguer for us. We have a poor track record with players with Pie's skill set.

:-k

 

How is EPatt's skillset that different from Pie's again?

[Jon]

I blame Patterson. CPatt was making stupid swings at some really bad pitches, and looked worse than most rookies. Doesn't matter if you're batting 1st or 7th. I can't blame the coaching staff for his stubborn attitude. If Pie is trying to learn patience at the plate at age 21 in Iowa, what does that say about Corey's willingness to learn?

I think his success this year says a lot about his willingness to learn.

 

I only wish that Corey really was stubborn last year and could have blocked out everything Clines and company were telling him about changing his swing instead of focusing on strike zone recognition.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Oh wait, that's right, he's uncoachable and unteachable (booo!). As if these coaches (manager included) have shown even the slightest ability to coach or teach anyone (other than maybe to hack away at everything and make outs on the basepaths).

 

I blame Patterson. CPatt was making stupid swings at some really bad pitches, and looked worse than most rookies. Doesn't matter if you're batting 1st or 7th. I can't blame the coaching staff for his stubborn attitude. If Pie is trying to learn patience at the plate at age 21 in Iowa, what does that say about Corey's willingness to learn?

 

That stubbornness has sure shown this season with what Corey has done with Lee Elia.

 

Oh wait...

 

EDIT: Jon, I let you get that one first since it's your birthday.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

I blame Patterson. CPatt was making stupid swings at some really bad pitches, and looked worse than most rookies. Doesn't matter if you're batting 1st or 7th. I can't blame the coaching staff for his stubborn attitude. If Pie is trying to learn patience at the plate at age 21 in Iowa, what does that say about Corey's willingness to learn?

I think his success this year says a lot about his willingness to learn.

 

I only wish that Corey really was stubborn last year and could have blocked out everything Clines and company were telling him about changing his swing instead of focusing on strike zone recognition.

 

In terms of Corey's willingness to learn, didn't he refuse to go to winter ball and the Cubs urged him to then he said he would go at the midpoint of winter ball. But, when the midpoint came he refused again saying he wanted to get away from the game for a while.

 

Was this a true story or blown out of proportion?

[Jon]

I blame Patterson. CPatt was making stupid swings at some really bad pitches, and looked worse than most rookies. Doesn't matter if you're batting 1st or 7th. I can't blame the coaching staff for his stubborn attitude. If Pie is trying to learn patience at the plate at age 21 in Iowa, what does that say about Corey's willingness to learn?

I think his success this year says a lot about his willingness to learn.

 

I only wish that Corey really was stubborn last year and could have blocked out everything Clines and company were telling him about changing his swing instead of focusing on strike zone recognition.

 

In terms of Corey's willingness to learn, didn't he refuse to go to winter ball and the Cubs urged him to then he said he would go at the midpoint of winter ball. But, when the midpoint came he refused again saying he wanted to get away from the game for a while.

 

Was this a true story or blown out of proportion?

 

Probably blown out of proportion in terms of importance, but he also reported to Mesa about four days after the season ended last year to work with Von Joshua on his hitting.

Edited June 11, 2006 by Jon

[srbin84]

I blame Patterson. CPatt was making stupid swings at some really bad pitches, and looked worse than most rookies. Doesn't matter if you're batting 1st or 7th. I can't blame the coaching staff for his stubborn attitude. If Pie is trying to learn patience at the plate at age 21 in Iowa, what does that say about Corey's willingness to learn?

I think his success this year says a lot about his willingness to learn.

 

I only wish that Corey really was stubborn last year and could have blocked out everything Clines and company were telling him about changing his swing instead of focusing on strike zone recognition.

 

That's great, but what are the reasons he was so horrible in about his first 800 ABs/830 PA's, had a pretty good half season when Dusty and his crew first arrived, slipped back to around average in 2004 then all of the sudden reverted back to his rookie form? There is a lot more to his career than just last year.

[Jon]

I blame Patterson. CPatt was making stupid swings at some really bad pitches, and looked worse than most rookies. Doesn't matter if you're batting 1st or 7th. I can't blame the coaching staff for his stubborn attitude. If Pie is trying to learn patience at the plate at age 21 in Iowa, what does that say about Corey's willingness to learn?

I think his success this year says a lot about his willingness to learn.

 

I only wish that Corey really was stubborn last year and could have blocked out everything Clines and company were telling him about changing his swing instead of focusing on strike zone recognition.

 

That's great, but what are the reasons he was so horrible in about his first 800 ABs/830 PA's, had a pretty good half season when Dusty and his crew first arrived, slipped back to around average in 2004 then all of the sudden reverted back to his rookie form? There is a lot more to his career than just last year.

It's pretty widely agreed that he was brought up too soon (a .700 OPS in 367 ABs at AAA before coming up to the big leagues for good), but as I've pointed out before, his 2004 has probably been understated. He finished with a .772 OPS, but it was as high as .821 as late as mid-September. And I'd probably classify his 329 ABs in 2003 better than pretty good. He was 4th in OPS among CFers with more than 300 ABs that year. It was a very good pace.

 

And he doesn't turn 27 until August.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I blame Patterson. CPatt was making stupid swings at some really bad pitches, and looked worse than most rookies. Doesn't matter if you're batting 1st or 7th. I can't blame the coaching staff for his stubborn attitude. If Pie is trying to learn patience at the plate at age 21 in Iowa, what does that say about Corey's willingness to learn?

I think his success this year says a lot about his willingness to learn.

 

I only wish that Corey really was stubborn last year and could have blocked out everything Clines and company were telling him about changing his swing instead of focusing on strike zone recognition.

 

That's great, but what are the reasons he was so horrible in about his first 800 ABs/830 PA's, had a pretty good half season when Dusty and his crew first arrived, slipped back to around average in 2004 then all of the sudden reverted back to his rookie form? There is a lot more to his career than just last year.

 

He was rushed/had major flaws early in his career (still has flaws, of course). Had a great 2003 before the injury. Came back early from the injury in 2004 and had a good season until he tired in September (he had been working out for 9 consecutive months between recovering from the injury and the season).

[srbin84]

The funniest part of all this for me is that Patterson's season is being held together by all of his bunt hits.

[srbin84]

It's pretty widely agreed that he was brought up too soon (a .700 OPS in 367 ABs at AAA before coming up to the big leagues for good), but as I've pointed out before, his 2004 has probably been understated. He finished with a .772 OPS, but it was as high as .821 as late as mid-September. And I'd probably classify his 329 ABs in 2003 better than pretty good. He was 4th in OPS among CFers with more than 300 ABs that year. It was a very good pace.

 

And he doesn't turn 27 until August.

 

In regards to 2003/2004 and 2005, if Clines is to blame for screwing Patterson up in 2005, then is the reason for his success in 2003 and to a lesser extent 2004 attributed to his work with Gary Matthews?

[CuseCubFan69]

It's pretty widely agreed that he was brought up too soon (a .700 OPS in 367 ABs at AAA before coming up to the big leagues for good), but as I've pointed out before, his 2004 has probably been understated. He finished with a .772 OPS, but it was as high as .821 as late as mid-September. And I'd probably classify his 329 ABs in 2003 better than pretty good. He was 4th in OPS among CFers with more than 300 ABs that year. It was a very good pace.

 

And he doesn't turn 27 until August.

 

In regards to 2003/2004 and 2005, if Clines is to blame for screwing Patterson up in 2005, then is the reason for his success in 2003 and to a lesser extent 2004 attributed to his work with Gary Matthews?

 

Not every coach can help every player. Some pitchers hated Mazzone when he was in Atlanta. IMO the best coach is the one that gets the most ability out of each player and doesn't ram the same techniques down every players throat.

[Jon]

It's pretty widely agreed that he was brought up too soon (a .700 OPS in 367 ABs at AAA before coming up to the big leagues for good), but as I've pointed out before, his 2004 has probably been understated. He finished with a .772 OPS, but it was as high as .821 as late as mid-September. And I'd probably classify his 329 ABs in 2003 better than pretty good. He was 4th in OPS among CFers with more than 300 ABs that year. It was a very good pace.

 

And he doesn't turn 27 until August.

 

In regards to 2003/2004 and 2005, if Clines is to blame for screwing Patterson up in 2005, then is the reason for his success in 2003 and to a lesser extent 2004 attributed to his work with Gary Matthews?

I believe he has primarily worked with Clines since Dusty arrived. Of course, it was also certainly tied to Hendry and his love for the Pierre prototype.

[srbin84]

It's pretty widely agreed that he was brought up too soon (a .700 OPS in 367 ABs at AAA before coming up to the big leagues for good), but as I've pointed out before, his 2004 has probably been understated. He finished with a .772 OPS, but it was as high as .821 as late as mid-September. And I'd probably classify his 329 ABs in 2003 better than pretty good. He was 4th in OPS among CFers with more than 300 ABs that year. It was a very good pace.

 

And he doesn't turn 27 until August.

 

In regards to 2003/2004 and 2005, if Clines is to blame for screwing Patterson up in 2005, then is the reason for his success in 2003 and to a lesser extent 2004 attributed to his work with Gary Matthews?

I believe he has primarily worked with Clines since Dusty arrived. Of course, it was also certainly tied to Hendry and his love for the Pierre prototype.

 

Well, then it seems like he did a pretty damn good job coaching him in 2003 and 2004 because he made a really huge jump in productivity.