Getting sick of Juan Pierre.

[mhuber92211]

so JP will all of a sudden just have a .350 OBP? Thats just silly to wait until he reaches that point to cheer him. Logically it would be better to encourage him to do better rather then beat him down until he improves.

 

 

Forgive me for not being clear. By "cheer" i meant "laud his praises," not the literal cheering at the ballpark. It's not my style to boo players and of course when at the ballpark I'll cheer for him as I will for any other player.

 

My point was to say: "Look, I'm not anti-Pierre. I want him to succeed, just like all Cubs players. In fact, he's seems like a tremendous guy with a wonderful work ethic. I also really enjoy watching him on the basepaths. So I'm not criticizing his play for simply the sake of doing so. And when/if he turns it around I'll be the first to admit that I was mistaken about him."

 

...But in the meantime, isn't it okay to point out that he's really struggling? And isn't it okay to also point out that he's struggled now since 2004? And isn't it okay to express concern that maybe...just maybe...he is and will continue to be a liability for the team? Because he is right now. His play is hurting the Cubs. We really need him to play better if we are going to survive this time without Lee, Prior, and Wood. He needs to pick it up, and pick it up fast. If he doesn't, I would have no problem with a Pie callup to take his place.

 

If Pierre doesn't get on base more frequently, he is a liability. He simply doesn't do anything else well enough to help the team in other ways.

 

Who else is there that isn't a liability? I would go so far as to say that JP is the 3rd best hitter on this team. If all we rate him on is his OBP we are doing him a disservice. Reaching on errors actually counts against your OBP as does FC. Personally I would rather have JP on 1st with 1 out then the pitcher on 2nd and 1 out.

 

I am for giving him (and Jones for that matter) more credit just because both of them are seemingly behind the 8 ball on this team. They both come in with such high expectations and when they didn't come out of the gate quickly there are these 10 page long threads on them. I don't feel that its fair to them or the Hendry (who also gets the heat). April is not a make or break month. If JP still has a sub .325 OBP in July then I might not be as defensible. I know the "its still early" defense is tired and often just an excuse but at the same time, I think that new players on a team deserve some added cushion. Especially for a player that is as likable as JP

[goonys evil twin]

Who else is there that isn't a liability? I would go so far as to say that JP is the 3rd best hitter on this team.

 

Murton, Cedeno, Walker and Barrett aren't liabilities. They are all better than Pierre, at least so far this year. Ramirez, as bad as he's been, has been better. Pierre has been better than Jones and Perez, but that's not really an accomplishment.

[srbin84]

I hate to point it out but by the time you are at the ballpark booing, management already has your ticket money, your beer money, your hotdog money, your nacho money, your hot pretzel money, your t-shirt money, and your hat money.

 

Management says "Come on out to the ballpark and boo all you want! CHA-CHING!!!"

 

True, but if you are at the game anyway, there is not use in sitting back like a drone when you see consistent mediocrity.

[badger1679666666]

If JP is the 3rd best hitter on this team, I got Heidi Klum naked in my bedroom begging for me right now.

[Joe_Cub]

Lucky's hitting .167-.219-.167 vs LHPs in 30 ABs this year and .308-.333-.423 vs RHPs in 52 ABs. He hasn't ever had LHP-RHP splits like that in MLB. Cubs have faced a lot of LHPs lately.

 

Making the adjustment against LHPs will help him alot and he will do that. He's a hard worker and has a good attitude.

[mhuber92211]

Who else is there that isn't a liability? I would go so far as to say that JP is the 3rd best hitter on this team.

 

Murton, Cedeno, Walker and Barrett aren't liabilities. They are all better than Pierre, at least so far this year. Ramirez, as bad as he's been, has been better. Pierre has been better than Jones and Perez, but that's not really an accomplishment.

 

Is that the same Murton who was hitting .250 coming into the Marlins series.

 

The Same Cedeno who is 6/19 in his last 7 games

The Same Walker who is 6/17 in his last 7 games.

 

Pierre is 6/23 in his last 7. Strange that 2 of the players have the same exact number of hits the last 7 games and yet you can say that One is playing terrible right now but the others aren't.

[Geech]

Well, Murton may have been hitting 250, but I guarantee you that his OBP was quite a bit higher than Pierre's even with that low average. For that matter, he's .294/.377/.456 right now, which blows Pierre away.

 

As for the rest of your post...

 

6/19 = .316 avg

6/17 = .353 avg (!)

6/23 = .261 avg

 

That .261 may represent an improvement over what Pierre has done previously but it's still significantly worse than what Cedeno and Walker are producing.

 

Seriously, why did you even post this? Did you think no one would divide the numbers out or anything?

[Roast]

Who else is there that isn't a liability? I would go so far as to say that JP is the 3rd best hitter on this team.

 

Murton, Cedeno, Walker and Barrett aren't liabilities. They are all better than Pierre, at least so far this year. Ramirez, as bad as he's been, has been better. Pierre has been better than Jones and Perez, but that's not really an accomplishment.

 

Is that the same Murton who was hitting .250 coming into the Marlins series.

 

The Same Cedeno who is 6/19 in his last 7 games

The Same Walker who is 6/17 in his last 7 games.

 

Pierre is 6/23 in his last 7. Strange that 2 of the players have the same exact number of hits the last 7 games and yet you can say that One is playing terrible right now but the others aren't.

 

You notice Something there?

 

How many BB's have walker and cedeno had the past seven games? And you seemed to leave out that was red hot this series.

[mhuber92211]

Well, Murton may have been hitting 250, but I guarantee you that his OBP was quite a bit higher than Pierre's even with that low average. For that matter, he's .294/.377/.456 right now, which blows Pierre away.

 

As for the rest of your post...

 

6/19 = .316 avg

6/17 = .353 avg (!)

6/23 = .261 avg

 

That .261 may represent an improvement over what Pierre has done previously but it's still significantly worse than what Cedeno and Walker are producing.

 

Seriously, why did you even post this? Did you think no one would divide the numbers out or anything?

 

It obviously was posted to point out that people's numbers don't often tell the entire story. I wouldn't call Pierre terrible and I would say that he is hitting just as much as other players. Not walking as many times, but it proves that not all statitiscs tell the story. Pierre is far fromt terrible and far from a "liability". My point is to give him a chance that goes past the first 20 games and see what happens.

[goonys evil twin]

It obviously was posted to point out that people's numbers don't often tell the entire story. I wouldn't call Pierre terrible and I would say that he is hitting just as much as other players. Not walking as many times, but it proves that not all statitiscs tell the story. Pierre is far fromt terrible and far from a "liability". My point is to give him a chance that goes past the first 20 games and see what happens.

 

That's fine if you don't want to call Pierre terrible. Fact is, he is playing terribly right now. The numbers do tell the story. They are facts, not feelings, opinions, hunches or biases, they are facts. I'm more than willing to give him a chance past 20 games. That doesn't mean I can't say he hasn't been terrible his first 20 games, because the numbers prove he has. Why would you be afraid to admit that? If Murton was terrible his first 20 games, I'd say he was terrible. I wouldn't use that to judge his entire season. But it doesn't make any sense to ignore it.

[jjgman21]

I knew coming into the season that Juan took walks only begrudgingly. what I did not know was his penchant for swinging at pitches 6-12 inches out of the strikezone.

 

I am getting sick of Juan very quickly.

[goonys evil twin]

I knew coming into the season that Juan took walks only begrudgingly. what I did not know was his penchant for swinging at pitches 6-12 inches out of the strikezone.

 

I am getting sick of Juan very quickly.

 

:lol:

 

I actually haven't seen a ton of Pierre at bats this year, but I've always thought of him as a guy who will swing at anything within a few inches of the strike zone. Pitchers can really make you look bad with that type of approach.

[Soul]

Derek Lee struggled his first April here.

 

Guess we should have benched/traded him, too.

 

JP is no Derek Lee. JP is a one-dimensional ballplayer who hasn't been valuable to a team since 2004.

 

I never said he was Ry. The point is valid: wanting a player to be thrown out of town based on an April isn't right.

 

Not saying you want that, but people are suggesting it on these boards. If it gets to be June and he's still getting on at his current clip, I'll be the first to suggest we NOT extend him and perhaps give Pie a shot or pursue some other avenue.

 

But it's still April (well, for a couple more days anyway). And lots of players struggle their first April with a club. Doesn't mean anything......yet. BTW, you should look at Pierre's April numbers from 2003, when he first came to the Marlins. Eerily similar to this year's numbers. And he wound up giving them 2 good years----like you said, through 2004.

[imb]

Who else is there that isn't a liability? I would go so far as to say that JP is the 3rd best hitter on this team.

 

Murton, Cedeno, Walker and Barrett aren't liabilities. They are all better than Pierre, at least so far this year. Ramirez, as bad as he's been, has been better. Pierre has been better than Jones and Perez, but that's not really an accomplishment.

 

Is that the same Murton who was hitting .250 coming into the Marlins series.

 

The Same Cedeno who is 6/19 in his last 7 games

The Same Walker who is 6/17 in his last 7 games.

 

Pierre is 6/23 in his last 7. Strange that 2 of the players have the same exact number of hits the last 7 games and yet you can say that One is playing terrible right now but the others aren't.

 

that is by far the worst use of statistics i have ever seen.

[mhuber92211]

Who else is there that isn't a liability? I would go so far as to say that JP is the 3rd best hitter on this team.

 

Murton, Cedeno, Walker and Barrett aren't liabilities. They are all better than Pierre, at least so far this year. Ramirez, as bad as he's been, has been better. Pierre has been better than Jones and Perez, but that's not really an accomplishment.

 

Is that the same Murton who was hitting .250 coming into the Marlins series.

 

The Same Cedeno who is 6/19 in his last 7 games

The Same Walker who is 6/17 in his last 7 games.

 

Pierre is 6/23 in his last 7. Strange that 2 of the players have the same exact number of hits the last 7 games and yet you can say that One is playing terrible right now but the others aren't.

 

that is by far the worst use of statistics i have ever seen.

 

Why? Because I don't extrapolate from them what you do?

 

Stats are fact. Absolutely. However, how we intrepet these facts are based on our own assumptions and beliefs. I refuse to say that JP has been terrible cause he hasn't. Terrible would describe the worst player at any given time. JP hasn't been the worst on this team and to classify it as such would be a disservice.

 

When someone forms an opinion based on fact, its still an opinion. Classification of someone's performance is opinion no matter the facts.

[goonys evil twin]

Why? Because I don't extrapolate from them what you do?

 

Stats are fact. Absolutely. However, how we intrepet these facts are based on our own assumptions and beliefs. I refuse to say that JP has been terrible cause he hasn't. Terrible would describe the worst player at any given time. JP hasn't been the worst on this team and to classify it as such would be a disservice.

 

When someone forms an opinion based on fact, its still an opinion. Classification of someone's performance is opinion no matter the facts.

 

First off, using average as your only tool is weak.

 

Second, terrible does not solely describe the worst player. There isn't just one terrible player per team. Juan Pierre is not a terrible player, but he has been playing terribly.

[CubinNY]

Well, Murton may have been hitting 250, but I guarantee you that his OBP was quite a bit higher than Pierre's even with that low average. For that matter, he's .294/.377/.456 right now, which blows Pierre away.

 

As for the rest of your post...

 

6/19 = .316 avg

6/17 = .353 avg (!)

6/23 = .261 avg

 

That .261 may represent an improvement over what Pierre has done previously but it's still significantly worse than what Cedeno and Walker are producing.

 

Seriously, why did you even post this? Did you think no one would divide the numbers out or anything?

[mhuber92211]

 

First off, using average as your only tool is weak.

 

 

I used # of hits too! :D

[imb]

 

First off, using average as your only tool is weak.

 

 

I used # of hits too! :D

 

you equated someone hitting .353 to someone hitting .261 because they both have six hits. Nevermind the fact that one of those players accomplished this feat in 6 fewer at bats. That is seriously the worst use of baseball statistics that i have ever seen in my entire life. Extrapolate those numbers out to a full season. Are you still going to say that two players with 180 hits are equal even though one has done it in 100 or so fewer at bats?

[Holy Cow]

 

First off, using average as your only tool is weak.

 

 

I used # of hits too! :D

 

you equated someone hitting .353 to someone hitting .261 because they both have six hits. Nevermind the fact that one of those players accomplished this feat in 6 fewer at bats. That is seriously the worst use of baseball statistics that i have ever seen in my entire life. Extrapolate those numbers out to a full season. Are you still going to say that two players with 180 hits are equal even though one has done it in 100 or so fewer at bats?

 

Especially because it is not due to injury or time on the bench - most of those missing ABs are walks!

[sunnydoo]

The Pierre-o-Meter finishes at:

 

.264/.299.

 

The 2 runs now put him on a pace for 131 this year, which would tie him for 19th best single season as a Cub.

 

More day games and more heat = more effective Juan Pierre. His career numbers say so at least.

[treebird]

juan pierre was not terrible today

[CubinNY]

The Pierre-o-Meter finishes at:

 

 

More day games and more heat = more effective Juan Pierre. His career numbers say so at least.

 

More heat? Do tell...

[cheapseats]

juan pierre was not terrible today

 

He got desperate and started juicing.

[Roast]

The Pierre-o-Meter finishes at:

 

 

More day games and more heat = more effective Juan Pierre. His career numbers say so at least.

 

More heat? Do tell...

 

Havent you been reading this thread?

 

It has been decided that since pierre runs fast, he will be better when it gets hot, because it is simply impossible to have any athletic ability in the cold, ever.