Getting sick of Juan Pierre.

[rocket]

Pierre's spot is +36 in projected runs (119 in 2006 vs. 83 in 2005) and he is on a pace to finish 2nd in the Modern Era for Cubs in SBs (Chance had 67 in 1903, Pierre is on a pace for 60).

 

Oh noes!

 

It's a little early to project stats out toa full season, though I'm sure he'll come close to the modern era stolen base mark.

[sunnydoo]

Pierre's spot is +36 in projected runs (119 in 2006 vs. 83 in 2005) and he is on a pace to finish 2nd in the Modern Era for Cubs in SBs (Chance had 67 in 1903, Pierre is on a pace for 60).

 

Oh noes!

 

It's a little early to project stats out toa full season, though I'm sure he'll come close to the modern era stolen base mark.

 

Oh hell no. You cant have it both ways. Either the sample size is too small (in which case everyone needs to shut up) or the projections are legit. Dont play both sides of the fence, it is uncool.

Edited April 26, 2006 by sunnydoo

[goonys evil twin]

Pierre's spot is +36 in projected runs (119 in 2006 vs. 83 in 2005) and he is on a pace to finish 2nd in the Modern Era for Cubs in SBs (Chance had 67 in 1903, Pierre is on a pace for 60).

 

Oh noes!

 

Combine the "lowered expectations" with the "let's get all worked up about relatively meangingless side facts" and there's your argument. Just because he could be better than last year's leadoff hitters doesn't mean he's good. And stolen base totals don't make a player.

[srbin84]

Alright, well, at least that is something tangible. Maybe they should try cutting it shorter at Wrigley.

 

That's no more tangible than the rest of the discussion.

 

Nobody has given an explanation why we should expect him to keep having a low average and low obp other than the fact he is in a prolonged stretch of it.

 

OPS+

2000-2005

55

89

65

98

107

84

 

He's averaged a 87 for his career. He peaked at 26, as expected. If he repeats his disappointing 2005, he'll be right in-line with his career.

 

I don't think he'll stay as terrible as he's been this year. But if he does improve, he'll have to hit much better than he did last year to be anything close to valuable. He could be less of a liability than Patterson was last year, but that's not enough to earn recognition as a valuable member of the team. Better than crap can still be bad.

 

I'm not worried about him. He isn't doing that bad. He's a one week hot streak from being on pace to match his career high numbers.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm not worried about him. He isn't doing that bad. He's a one week hot streak from being on pace to match his career high numbers.

 

That's great that you aren't worried, but it's an outright lie to claim he's not doing that bad.

[Proven Veteran]

Milton Bradley's OBP is .373, even with his .246 BA. :(

[rocket]

Pierre's spot is +36 in projected runs (119 in 2006 vs. 83 in 2005) and he is on a pace to finish 2nd in the Modern Era for Cubs in SBs (Chance had 67 in 1903, Pierre is on a pace for 60).

 

Oh noes!

 

It's a little early to project stats out toa full season, though I'm sure he'll come close to the modern era stolen base mark.

 

Oh hell no. You cant have it both ways. Either the sample size is too small (in which case everyone needs to shut up) or the projections are legit. Dont play both sides of the fence, it is uncool.

 

What the hell are you talking about? The argument is that no one is impressed with Juan Pierre so far. No one is saying they expect Pierre to put up a sub-300 OBP the whole season. But with his crappy season last year, this start isn't giving anyone any hope for a very productive season.

 

There is a difference.

[srbin84]

I'm not worried about him. He isn't doing that bad. He's a one week hot streak from being on pace to match his career high numbers.

 

That's great that you aren't worried, but it's an outright lie to claim he's not doing that bad.

 

Why are expectations so high? Those who are against Pierre, what are your expectations from the leadoff/CF spot?

[RyCubsFan]

I'm not worried about him. He isn't doing that bad. He's a one week hot streak from being on pace to match his career high numbers.

 

That's great that you aren't worried, but it's an outright lie to claim he's not doing that bad.

 

Why are expectations so high? Those who are against Pierre, what are your expectations from the leadoff/CF spot?

 

From every position in the lineup, I look for at least a .350 OBP, an .800 OPS, and solid defense. That's a well balanced player.

 

I'll be surprised if Pierre provides any of the 3. Meanwhile, we traded 3 young arms for him, we're paying him millions, and we have a CF in triple A who I believe would indeed provide all 3.

[srbin84]

I'm not worried about him. He isn't doing that bad. He's a one week hot streak from being on pace to match his career high numbers.

 

That's great that you aren't worried, but it's an outright lie to claim he's not doing that bad.

 

Why are expectations so high? Those who are against Pierre, what are your expectations from the leadoff/CF spot?

 

From every position in the lineup, I look for at least a .350 OBP, an .800 OPS, and solid defense. That's a well balanced player.

 

I'll be surprised if Pierre provides any of the 3. Meanwhile, we traded 3 young arms for him, we're paying him millions, and we have a CF in triple A who I believe would indeed provide all 3.

 

Well, I think you expect too much. There wasn't a team in the major leagues that met your expectations last year just from an offensive standpoint.

[Guest]

His speed looks fine to me. Nobody has given an explanation why we should expect him to keep having a low average and low obp other than the fact he is in a prolonged stretch of it. Explain to me why he isn't going to play like he did for years before. And to RyCubsfan, I'm not looking for SLG from the leadoff man.

Actually, his speed does appear to be as good as it ever has been. Pierre's struggles aren't a matter of him losing a step or even of bad luck; His BABIP was .310 heading into today, not too far off his career average of .323 and a bit better than the .294 mark he posted last season. Clearly his struggles aren't due to more ground balls finding infielder's mitts than normal. The real reason he's had a slow start is far more troubling.

 

As others have pointed out, Pierre's K/BB ratio has been terrible in 2006, particularly for him. That's bad news because a bad K/BB ratio is far more likely to persist than a lowered BABIP. The good news is that it's still early enough that the deviation could be attributed to small sample size, but it's troubling nonetheless. From 2003-2005 Pierre's Take/Swing ratio was consistently around 1.35. It's dropped down to 1.16, however, through his first 304 pitches this season. Now a 1.16 T/S ratio isn't bad; it's about league average. What is bad is the type of pitches those extra swings are coming from. Pierre is swinging at 12.9% of pitches outside the strike zone, quite a bit below league average and second-worst among Cub regulars. (Only Jones has shown worse strike-zone recognition so far.) Despite all these ill-advised swings Pierre is still making regular contact (93.4%), but what it is doing is killing his walk rate. Balls he used to take for a free pass are now fouled off or grounded weakly to an infielder.

 

It's still early, but Pierre's batting eye is something that we should worry about.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Anonymous

[Dirt Dog Sparly]

 

From every position in the lineup, I look for at least a .350 OBP, an .800 OPS, and solid defense. That's a well balanced player.

 

 

While they are at it that can solve world hunger, balance the budget, keep Iran from getting nukes, solve cancer, and on Saturdays teach everyone to read a foreign language.

[RyCubsFan]

I'm not worried about him. He isn't doing that bad. He's a one week hot streak from being on pace to match his career high numbers.

 

That's great that you aren't worried, but it's an outright lie to claim he's not doing that bad.

 

Why are expectations so high? Those who are against Pierre, what are your expectations from the leadoff/CF spot?

 

From every position in the lineup, I look for at least a .350 OBP, an .800 OPS, and solid defense. That's a well balanced player.

 

I'll be surprised if Pierre provides any of the 3. Meanwhile, we traded 3 young arms for him, we're paying him millions, and we have a CF in triple A who I believe would indeed provide all 3.

 

Well, I think you expect too much. There wasn't a team in the major leagues that met your expectations last year just from an offensive standpoint.

 

It's worth shooting for. And it would obtainable in CF by simply benching Pierre and calling up Pie.

 

I certainly expect better than Pierre's current .275 OBP! It's absolutely terrible.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm not worried about him. He isn't doing that bad. He's a one week hot streak from being on pace to match his career high numbers.

 

That's great that you aren't worried, but it's an outright lie to claim he's not doing that bad.

 

Why are expectations so high? Those who are against Pierre, what are your expectations from the leadoff/CF spot?

 

So high? Claiming his sub .300 OBP is bad reflects unfairly high expectations?

[RyCubsFan]

 

From every position in the lineup, I look for at least a .350 OBP, an .800 OPS, and solid defense. That's a well balanced player.

 

 

While they are at it that can solve world hunger, balance the budget, keep Iran from getting nukes, solve cancer, and on Saturdays teach everyone to read a foreign language.

Lee, Walker, Cedeno, Ramirez, and Barett are have a good chance to provide that.

 

Murton certainly does in the OF.

 

That leaves two holes: Pierre and Jones. These two holes happen to be paid a whole lot.

Edited April 26, 2006 by RyCubsFan

[sunnydoo]

From every position in the lineup, I look for at least a .350 OBP, an .800 OPS, and solid defense. That's a well balanced player.

 

Get ready for disappointment. Guess how many qualified CFs in MLB have these stats? 3- Vernon Wells, Curtis Granderson, and Corey Sullivan. ESPN

 

Players such as Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter, Jim Edmonds, and Johnny Damon all suck according to your standards. Hmmm...realistic standards?

[RyCubsFan]

From every position in the lineup, I look for at least a .350 OBP, an .800 OPS, and solid defense. That's a well balanced player.

 

Get ready for disappointment. Guess how many qualified CFs in MLB have these stats? 3- Vernon Wells, Curtis Granderson, and Corey Sullivan. ESPN

 

Players such as Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter, Jim Edmonds, and Johnny Damon all suck according to your standards. Hmmm...realistic standards?

 

I don't want Hunter on my team. Damon's defense does indeed suck, but he will certainly put up a .350 OBP and .800 OPS this year, as will Edmonds and Jones. Are you so certain that Pierre will? I find it highly unlikely.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm not worried about him. He isn't doing that bad. He's a one week hot streak from being on pace to match his career high numbers.

 

That's great that you aren't worried, but it's an outright lie to claim he's not doing that bad.

 

Why are expectations so high? Those who are against Pierre, what are your expectations from the leadoff/CF spot?

 

From every position in the lineup, I look for at least a .350 OBP, an .800 OPS, and solid defense. That's a well balanced player.

 

I'll be surprised if Pierre provides any of the 3. Meanwhile, we traded 3 young arms for him, we're paying him millions, and we have a CF in triple A who I believe would indeed provide all 3.

 

Well, I think you expect too much. There wasn't a team in the major leagues that met your expectations last year just from an offensive standpoint.

 

It's worth shooting for. And it would obtainable in CF by simply benching Pierre and calling up Pie.

 

I certainly expect better than Pierre's current .275 OBP! It's absolutely terrible.

 

A .350 OBP and .800 OPS from everybody is high. And i'm not sure Pie is a great bet for at least the first part. I'd like a .340-.350 OBP from the top of the order guys, somewhere around .370-.400 from the middle guys and .320-.340 from the lower guys. There's nothing wrong with a sub 800 OPS from a few guys, it's going to happen regardless.

 

It doesn't matter though, because no matter how you slice it, or how many convoluted "1 hit a week" theories you come up with, Pierre is off to a terrible start and needs to improve to help the team.

[sunnydoo]

I don't want Hunter on my team. Damon's defense does indeed suck, but he will certainly put up a .350 OBP and .800 OPS this year, as will Edmonds and Jones. Are you so certain that Pierre will? I find it highly unlikely.

 

Really?

 

Jones hasnt had a .350 OBP since 2002, and has only accomplished it 3 times in 11 years.

 

Edmonds numbers are declining. You can almost see the bell curve when you look at his numbers. With his early injuries and a .385 OBP last season, I dont think he will make it this year.

 

I am not a fan of OPS so I am not going there.

[RyCubsFan]

From every position in the lineup, I look for at least a .350 OBP, an .800 OPS, and solid defense. That's a well balanced player.

 

Get ready for disappointment. Guess how many qualified CFs in MLB have these stats? 3- Vernon Wells, Curtis Granderson, and Corey Sullivan. ESPN

 

Players such as Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter, Jim Edmonds, and Johnny Damon all suck according to your standards. Hmmm...realistic standards?

 

 

Last year the following CF had an OBP above .350 and an .OPS above 800:

 

1) Edmonds .385 / .918

2) Griffey .369 / .946

3) Damon .366 / .805

4) Winn .360 / .859

5) DeJesus .359 / .804

 

Sizemore, Jones, and Crisp JUST missed an OBP of .350, but all put up OPS's greater than .800. Brady Clark had an OBP of .372, but his OPS was .798.

 

That's 9 CF's that were right about .350 / .800 or well above.

 

Pierre btw had a .326 OBP and a .680 OPS. That is horrible.

[RyCubsFan]

Juan Pierre

Offense: .256 / .282 / .339

Defense: 0 assists

Cost: $5,750,000 and 3 young pitchers

 

Felix Pie

Offense: .320 / .391 / .520

Defense: 3 assists

Cost: League Minimum

 

You choose.

[rocket]

Juan Pierre

Offense: .256 / .282 / .339

Defense: 0 assists

Cost: $5,750,000 and 3 young pitchers

 

Felix Pie

Offense: .320 / .391 / .520

Defense: 3 assists

Cost: League Minimum

 

You choose.

 

Juan Pierre. The Cubs shouldn't be rushing Pie to the majors.

 

Next season? I'm open for Pie suggestions.

[RyCubsFan]

Juan Pierre

Offense: .256 / .282 / .339

Defense: 0 assists

Cost: $5,750,000 and 3 young pitchers

 

Felix Pie

Offense: .320 / .391 / .520

Defense: 3 assists

Cost: League Minimum

 

You choose.

 

Juan Pierre. The Cubs shouldn't be rushing Pie to the majors.

 

Next season? I'm open for Pie suggestions.

 

Pie would outperform Pierre now. I don't think Pie's the type of player that would be hurt by being pushed.

[Roast]

I'm not looking for SLG from the leadoff man.

 

Okay, then what do you want? OBP? Thats what I'd like, sadly, he sucks in that department too, so far this year.

 

And I'd just like to share my personal reaction of WTH? To the defense that Pierres still doing good, cause LOOK HE CAUSES HAVOC ON THE BASEPATHS. Sorry to dissapoint, but to cause all this havoc, you have to get on base first.

 

I dont disagree that when he gets on base he causes trouble for the pitchers, and that his speed is a great asset, nor do I disagree that said trouble and speed can help manufacture runs. Key phrase, however, "When he gets on base". Speed is good, speed is fine, but you need to be on base to use it.

[bhogg]

If the Cubs thought for one second that Pie would immediately put up those kind of numbers, Jones wouldn't have been signed.