Grissom signs with the Cubs.........

[CuseCubFan69]

Bobby Hill

 

Harris wasn't the better option.

 

Bobby Hill is most similar at age 27 to Patsy Gharrity. :shock:

 

I hope that's a dude. :D

 

I guess its 20-20 hindsite, but I am not positive that Hill is/was a head-and-shoulders better pro than Harris was in 03'. Plus, sending him back down to the minors may have allowed him to maintain his value enough such that the Ramirez-Lofton deal got done. Had he languished on the bench in Chicago, his value might have dropped. Its probably too close to call.

 

In Grissom's case, there seem to be better options.

 

You don't think Hill was better than this: .183/.255/.229/.484

 

That's what Harris put up in around 145 PA's. You'd be very hard pressed to find someone worse.

 

Point taken. But how did Harris do in 2002, the year before he made the team?:

 

.305 / .355 / .411

 

Plus, he played well for FL after we released him in 03':

 

.286 .412 .286

 

Point is, I don't think anyone could have predicted that large a decline.

 

I think it was that Harris was used wrong by Baker more than anything. Baker plays fadded vets way too much and this is a good example.

[SouthSideRyan]

Just in case the above wasn't disconcerting enough, note that Grissom's last good year was in 1996:

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/g/grissma02.shtml

Yeah, and his last good year against lefties was 2004. The last time before that was 2003. The last time before that was 2002... and so on.

 

Grissom is a horrible player at this point in his life. Horrible meaning really, really bad. He has no business on the Cubs.

 

I refuse to believe that this signing is anything more than a favor to him from Dusty. The signing is so he can show he can still play. He will sign with a low payroll team after the Cubs cut him.

 

If he is on the Cubs come April I will be more than shocked.

 

Nope, the smart money is on him breaking the PA record. The only reason I'm pissed about this move is retroactive to Hendry's insane decision to trade Walker.

[craig]

Bobby Hill was considered a prime prospect then. Rather than parking him as a reserve 3B where he'd never played before, it made sense to return him to Iowa and let him work things out.

 

Hill/Harris would be analogous to Grissom/Pie. So, if Murton breaks his leg this spring, do you want to force Pie onto the big-league team, when he may be totally unready and do nothing but get one or two K's per week? Or would you rather send him to minors where he belongs and where he can develop his game, and tolerate Grissom for a while? I can just imagine, if Murton gets disabled and they decide to send Pie down, for years we'll get posts about how Cubs/Baker/Hendry preferred vet Grissom over kid Pie....

 

My Grissom question is whether he's just non-roster depth/injury insurance, who will only make the team if one of the intended roster outfielders gets hurt. Or whether they intend for him to make the team, and perhaps he's simply non-roster for convenience. The roster is full for now, but will open later. (Wellemeyer is out of options; assuming he doesn't make the April roster, he'll be removed from the roster just as happened with Kelton last spring. Or, some pitcher will turn up on the 60-day DL come spring and open a roster spot; or perhaps Hendry will still make a quantity for quality trade that opens a roster spot; or Corey will be traded for a young prospect who isn't a roster prospect yet; or if none of those things happen to open a spot, but Aardsma comes back throwing 88 again, they can always deroster him in March if they want to make room for Grissom...).

 

At present Murton is the only RH outfielder on the roster. Do they want to go with an outfield in which everybody else is LH? (so that even if Jones is platooned, it would have to be with another LH hitter!!!) Or do they feel they have to have a RH outfielder/PH? (At present, the RH pinch hitters would be Blanco, and whichever among Neifi/Hairston don't start.)

 

If they feel they have to have or might end up wanting another RH outfielder besides Murton, is Grissom that guy? Or are they still hoping/prioritizing acquiring another RH outfielder? With Grissom just an option in case somebody's injured in camp? Or just in case the teams with RH reserve outfielders available won't trade them for less than Pie or Hill?

 

My guess is they still want to acquire a RH outfielder who will be a no-doubt-about-it-on-the-roster guy. And Grissom is just injury protection.

 

But it could be that Grissom might also be viewed as a genuine RH 5th outfielder option, just in case they can find somebody who will give a pretty good prospect for Corey.

[Bull]

Just in case the above wasn't disconcerting enough, note that Grissom's last good year was in 1996:

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/g/grissma02.shtml

Yeah, and his last good year against lefties was 2004. The last time before that was 2003. The last time before that was 2002... and so on.

 

His last good year was '96? .

 

how was 96 good (.838 ops) and 2002 (.831) not good?

I always thought an .831 ops for a CFer was pretty good (2002)

 

.790 in 03 and .794 in 04. League average in 2004 was .752. Good enough for a fourth OFer in my book. Add in the facts that his splits against lefties are even better, I don't think its terrible that they signed him to a minor league contract.

[RynoRules]

Bobby Hill

 

Harris wasn't the better option.

 

Bobby Hill is most similar at age 27 to Patsy Gharrity. :shock:

 

I hope that's a dude. :D

 

I guess its 20-20 hindsite, but I am not positive that Hill is/was a head-and-shoulders better pro than Harris was in 03'. Plus, sending him back down to the minors may have allowed him to maintain his value enough such that the Ramirez-Lofton deal got done. Had he languished on the bench in Chicago, his value might have dropped. Its probably too close to call.

 

In Grissom's case, there seem to be better options.

 

You don't think Hill was better than this: .183/.255/.229/.484

 

That's what Harris put up in around 145 PA's. You'd be very hard pressed to find someone worse.

 

Point taken. But how did Harris do in 2002, the year before he made the team?:

 

.305 / .355 / .411

 

Plus, he played well for FL after we released him in 03':

 

.286 .412 .286

 

Point is, I don't think anyone could have predicted that large a decline.

 

well, i think you'll have to admit that it's someone's fault. either hendry for signing him or dusty for playing him everyday.

 

you can't excuse blame for both in this instance.

 

imo, they both suck.

 

You took the words right out of mouth. I blame Dusty for how he used him. I know, I know: what other 3B options did he have? I get that. But Lenny Harris has never been a every day player, and therefore Dusty extinguished what makes him valuable by trotting him out there every day. So instead of Bellhorn sucking and Harris doing a good job off the bench, he benches Bellhorn and made Harris the starter, causing them both to suck.

 

I do not blame JH.

[JeffH]

No problem. If I had to guess, I'd say that the hit by pitch has resulted in more serious problems for Greenberg than the Cubs have publicly let on: that would certainly fit with them purchasing his contract mid-season only to outright him at the end of the season, and if other teams were aware of these problems too, that'd fit with him successfully clearing waivers, which I found pretty surprising given that he looks/looked like becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders. All of that's just a guess though, and I obviously really hope it's not the case.

 

Adam Greenberg was on his way to becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders?

[erik316wttn]

Merry Christmas, Dusty. You got another toy.

 

In theory, Grissom wouldn't be terrible. But, with Dusty Baker running this team, you know for a fact he's going to get far more playing time than he should.

[RynoRules]

Just in case the above wasn't disconcerting enough, note that Grissom's last good year was in 1996:

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/g/grissma02.shtml

Yeah, and his last good year against lefties was 2004. The last time before that was 2003. The last time before that was 2002... and so on.

 

His last good year was '96? .

 

how was 96 good (.838 ops) and 2002 (.831) not good?

I always thought an .831 ops for a CFer was pretty good (2002)

 

.790 in 03 and .794 in 04. League average in 2004 was .752. Good enough for a fourth OFer in my book. Add in the facts that his splits against lefties are even better, I don't think its terrible that they signed him to a minor league contract.

 

I was looking mainly at his OBPs in light of the fact that he has mainly been a leadoff hitter during his career. It was illustrative, IMO, of why I'd blow my top if he were to start over Murton.

[NCCubFan]

Bobby Hill was considered a prime prospect then. Rather than parking him as a reserve 3B where he'd never played before, it made sense to return him to Iowa and let him work things out.

If I remember correctly, he also missed a lot of time in Spring Training due to illness (flu, I believe) and needed some time to regain his strength.

[UK1679666180]

If they feel they have to have or might end up wanting another RH outfielder besides Murton, is Grissom that guy? Or are they still hoping/prioritizing acquiring another RH outfielder? With Grissom just an option in case somebody's injured in camp? Or just in case the teams with RH reserve outfielders available won't trade them for less than Pie or Hill?

 

That's my main concern with the bench as it stands, there's no legit option of a RH bat off the bench with the ability to hit for some power. I'm unsure of Hairston's stats, but I assume there isn't much of distinction between the two, to where you could say that Hairston can provide the RH'ed bat off the bench for both scenarios req'd for a PH (the ability to get on and the ability to drive them in).

[Mizzou]

No problem. If I had to guess, I'd say that the hit by pitch has resulted in more serious problems for Greenberg than the Cubs have publicly let on: that would certainly fit with them purchasing his contract mid-season only to outright him at the end of the season, and if other teams were aware of these problems too, that'd fit with him successfully clearing waivers, which I found pretty surprising given that he looks/looked like becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders. All of that's just a guess though, and I obviously really hope it's not the case.

 

Adam Greenberg was on his way to becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders?

The fact that not a single team claimed him a few weeks ago strongly suggests otherwise and is telling of how much we (Cubs fans) overvalue our own guys at times.

[ThePenguin11]

No problem. If I had to guess, I'd say that the hit by pitch has resulted in more serious problems for Greenberg than the Cubs have publicly let on: that would certainly fit with them purchasing his contract mid-season only to outright him at the end of the season, and if other teams were aware of these problems too, that'd fit with him successfully clearing waivers, which I found pretty surprising given that he looks/looked like becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders. All of that's just a guess though, and I obviously really hope it's not the case.

 

Adam Greenberg was on his way to becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders?

The fact that not a single team claimed him a few weeks ago strongly suggests otherwise and is telling of how much we (Cubs fans) overvalue our own guys at times.

 

Seriously. Adam Greenberg. Perfect example. I've seen half-a-dozen threads started about the pending fate of Adam Greenberg. Who cares? If he sniffs a starting position in the majors for a full season at any point in his career, I'll name my next child LaRussa or Pujols.

[RynoRules]

No problem. If I had to guess, I'd say that the hit by pitch has resulted in more serious problems for Greenberg than the Cubs have publicly let on: that would certainly fit with them purchasing his contract mid-season only to outright him at the end of the season, and if other teams were aware of these problems too, that'd fit with him successfully clearing waivers, which I found pretty surprising given that he looks/looked like becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders. All of that's just a guess though, and I obviously really hope it's not the case.

 

Adam Greenberg was on his way to becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders?

The fact that not a single team claimed him a few weeks ago strongly suggests otherwise and is telling of how much we (Cubs fans) overvalue our own guys at times.

 

Seriously. Adam Greenberg. Perfect example. I've seen half-a-dozen threads started about the pending fate of Adam Greenberg. Who cares? If he sniffs a starting position in the majors for a full season at any point in his career, I'll name my next child LaRussa or Pujols.

 

Witness!!!!

 

But seriously, I agree that Greeny is a bit overrated on this bd.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Greenberg is overrated on here because we say he'll be a (good) 4th outfielder?

[CubfaninCA]

It just seems that you have unreasonably high expectations for the guy at the end of the bench. That's all I meant by that.

 

29th man on a good team? Yeah, I guess if you only look at his injury riddled season last year. If you choose to look at his splits over the previous several years though, and you consider how terrible Jones is against lefties, I wouldn't come to that conclusion.

 

He would not be at the end of the bench.

 

He'll be 39 years old. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt that he'll go back to the way he once was. His age 38 season was awful, and while it may be due, in part, to being injured, that's what you expect from mediocre players as they get old. And if you look at Dusty's history there is no way he properly uses Grissom in a platoon with Jones, none. Jones is the starting RF, he'll play almost every day if healthy this year.

And I'm not saying that he does deserve the assumption that last year was a fluke and he'll automatically be healthy and albe to hit lefties well again. This goes back to the fact that it's a minor league contract and he'll have to EARN a roster spot.

 

And this goes back to the fact that he's an ancient veteran who will only have to be able to stand upright to "earn" the spot.

:roll:

 

You're entitled to your own opinion.

 

One that's already been proven by the previously outlined Lenny Harris situation.

 

small sample size..

[CubfaninCA]

No problem. If I had to guess, I'd say that the hit by pitch has resulted in more serious problems for Greenberg than the Cubs have publicly let on: that would certainly fit with them purchasing his contract mid-season only to outright him at the end of the season, and if other teams were aware of these problems too, that'd fit with him successfully clearing waivers, which I found pretty surprising given that he looks/looked like becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders. All of that's just a guess though, and I obviously really hope it's not the case.

 

Adam Greenberg was on his way to becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders?

The fact that not a single team claimed him a few weeks ago strongly suggests otherwise and is telling of how much we (Cubs fans) overvalue our own guys at times.

 

Yep. You've done a nice job in this thread.

[TenzilKem]

But seriously, I agree that Greeny is a bit overrated on this bd.

 

Overrated? The guy has a lifetime OBP of 1.000. That's better than Barry Bonds, Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth.

[treebird]

No problem. If I had to guess, I'd say that the hit by pitch has resulted in more serious problems for Greenberg than the Cubs have publicly let on: that would certainly fit with them purchasing his contract mid-season only to outright him at the end of the season, and if other teams were aware of these problems too, that'd fit with him successfully clearing waivers, which I found pretty surprising given that he looks/looked like becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders. All of that's just a guess though, and I obviously really hope it's not the case.

 

Adam Greenberg was on his way to becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders?

The fact that not a single team claimed him a few weeks ago strongly suggests otherwise and is telling of how much we (Cubs fans) overvalue our own guys at times.

 

Yep. You've done a nice job in this thread.

 

it really bugs me when people compliment each other for arguing the right points or whatever it is that is happening here.

[E.J.]

No problem. If I had to guess, I'd say that the hit by pitch has resulted in more serious problems for Greenberg than the Cubs have publicly let on: that would certainly fit with them purchasing his contract mid-season only to outright him at the end of the season, and if other teams were aware of these problems too, that'd fit with him successfully clearing waivers, which I found pretty surprising given that he looks/looked like becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders. All of that's just a guess though, and I obviously really hope it's not the case.

 

Adam Greenberg was on his way to becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders?

The fact that not a single team claimed him a few weeks ago strongly suggests otherwise and is telling of how much we (Cubs fans) overvalue our own guys at times.

 

Yep. You've done a nice job in this thread.

 

it really bugs me when people compliment each other for arguing the right points or whatever it is that is happening here.

 

You're right on point with this statement. Good job Tree.

[stitchface]

I'm in favor of platooning grissom with jones. combined you get a .340ish OBP and decent defense.

[imb]

No problem. If I had to guess, I'd say that the hit by pitch has resulted in more serious problems for Greenberg than the Cubs have publicly let on: that would certainly fit with them purchasing his contract mid-season only to outright him at the end of the season, and if other teams were aware of these problems too, that'd fit with him successfully clearing waivers, which I found pretty surprising given that he looks/looked like becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders. All of that's just a guess though, and I obviously really hope it's not the case.

 

Adam Greenberg was on his way to becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders?

The fact that not a single team claimed him a few weeks ago strongly suggests otherwise and is telling of how much we (Cubs fans) overvalue our own guys at times.

 

Yep. You've done a nice job in this thread.

 

it really bugs me when people compliment each other for arguing the right points or whatever it is that is happening here.

 

You're right on point with this statement. Good job Tree.

 

[CubfaninCA]

No problem. If I had to guess, I'd say that the hit by pitch has resulted in more serious problems for Greenberg than the Cubs have publicly let on: that would certainly fit with them purchasing his contract mid-season only to outright him at the end of the season, and if other teams were aware of these problems too, that'd fit with him successfully clearing waivers, which I found pretty surprising given that he looks/looked like becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders. All of that's just a guess though, and I obviously really hope it's not the case.

 

Adam Greenberg was on his way to becoming one of the game's best fourth outfielders?

The fact that not a single team claimed him a few weeks ago strongly suggests otherwise and is telling of how much we (Cubs fans) overvalue our own guys at times.

 

Yep. You've done a nice job in this thread.

 

it really bugs me when people compliment each other for arguing the right points or whatever it is that is happening here.

 

Just giving the man props.

 

You must be bugged often then.

[stitchface]

why not send him a pm?