Wheres the support for a lead off guy?

[b_wiggy_66]

I have been reading posts all day and the majority of people dont want Pierre and Furcal because they think there are better options. These are two of the best leadoff hitters in the game.

 

Last year in June and July when we were seeing CPatt and Neifi 1-2 everyday we all would have probly threw a parade and declared ourselves world champs if we were told we could have Furcal and Pierre. Now we dont want them?

 

we NEED Pierre and Furcal so we can generate runs so we dont have to wait for the three run bomb when the wind is blowing in at 30 miles per hour.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'd prefer we trade for Luis Castillo over Furcal and Pierre. That being said, I'd rather have Furcal than Pierre.

 

My issue is if we have Furcal to lead-off, why trade for Pierre. It seems a little redundant to me.

[b_wiggy_66]

Why not have them so they can both get on base?

[AAApittsburgh]

Pierre and Furcal are the 2 best leadoff hitters in the game?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Why not have them so they can both get on base?

 

Why not have someone who gets on base better than Pierre and has more power but less speed and plays better defense, ala Milton Bradley?

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Why not have them so they can both get on base?

 

Why not have someone who gets on base better than Pierre and has more power but less speed and plays better defense, ala Milton Bradley?

 

I think the Cubs would prefer a leadoff guy that's ready to play 162 games, instead of spending part of the year either pouting in the dugout, or in jail. Just a thought.

[CubfaninCA]

My guess is that Walker and Bradley would win a vote here. They're cheap and have good obp and slg.

 

They'd be pretty far down my list. 185 combined games played in 2005 scares me.

[Outshined_One]

You don't have to be a (s)crappy, short, slap-happy hitter to be an acceptable leadoff hitter. Sure, it'd be nice to have a guy like that who could consistently get on base.

 

But...in all honesty, the main qualities I look for an ideal leadoff hitter are...

 

1) An OBP around or above .350

2) A concrete idea of the strike zone (i.e. knows when to lay off bad pitches)

3) A willingness to take and/or foul off pitches effectively.

4) Good awareness on the basepaths.

 

Todd Walker exhibits those qualities. Matt Murton does as well. In all honesty, this team already has two guys who could effectively bat 1-2 in the order. They are an incredible step up from the three headed monster that was Corey Patterson, Jose Macias, and Neifi Perez last season. None of those three guys deserved to be in those two slots. I'd be willing to listen to a case for Hairston being in the 2 slot, but leadoff I'm not as much of a fan.

 

Despite these questionable managerial moves, Hendry seems to think the only way to remedy them is to go out and find stereotypical leadoff hitters. I don't think Pierre conforms to all four of those things I laid out above (check out his career pitches per plate appearance and his SB%). Furcal actually fits pretty well into that spectrum, so I wouldn't be too upset with him in a Cubs uniform.

 

The main problem I have with Pierre is I get the feeling Hendry might overpay for Pierre. At a fair price, he'd be a decent addition. However, he's not the ideal addition; not by a longshot.

[indifferent]

You don't have to be a (s)crappy, short, slap-happy hitter to be an acceptable leadoff hitter. Sure, it'd be nice to have a guy like that who could consistently get on base.

 

But...in all honesty, the main qualities I look for an ideal leadoff hitter are...

 

1) An OBP around or above .350

2) A concrete idea of the strike zone (i.e. knows when to lay off bad pitches)

3) A willingness to take and/or foul off pitches effectively.

4) Good awareness on the basepaths.

 

Todd Walker exhibits those qualities. Matt Murton does as well. In all honesty, this team already has two guys who could effectively bat 1-2 in the order. They are an incredible step up from the three headed monster that was Corey Patterson, Jose Macias, and Neifi Perez last season. None of those three guys deserved to be in those two slots. I'd be willing to listen to a case for Hairston being in the 2 slot, but leadoff I'm not as much of a fan.

 

Despite these questionable managerial moves, Hendry seems to think the only way to remedy them is to go out and find stereotypical leadoff hitters. I don't think Pierre conforms to all four of those things I laid out above (check out his career pitches per plate appearance and his SB%). Furcal actually fits pretty well into that spectrum, so I wouldn't be too upset with him in a Cubs uniform.

 

The main problem I have with Pierre is I get the feeling Hendry might overpay for Pierre. At a fair price, he'd be a decent addition. However, he's not the ideal addition; not by a longshot.

 

Good post, no need to kill a fly with an elephant or whatever the phrase is. One move for a leadoff hitter would more than fix the situation provided Baker will use Murton or Walker in the two slot.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Why not have them so they can both get on base?

 

Why not have someone who gets on base better than Pierre and has more power but less speed and plays better defense, ala Milton Bradley?

 

I think the Cubs would prefer a leadoff guy that's ready to play 162 games, instead of spending part of the year either pouting in the dugout, or in jail. Just a thought.

 

Apparently you didn't read where I qualified everything by saying if we sign Furcal. In that scenario, I have a lead-off hitter ready to play 162 games, and so with that in place I'd rather a hitter who can actually drive the ball every once in awhile.

[cheapseats]

Why not have them so they can both get on base?

 

Would you bat them 1-2? Not necessarily a good idea.

 

Furcal and Pierre both came to bat 81 times last season with a man on first and less than 2 outs. Both players hit into 13 double plays. The double play percentage works out to 16%, roughly one in every six opportunities.

 

Neifi's DP% was 22%, so either Furcal or Pierre would be an improvement, but we already have Todd Walker, whose DP rate was just 9%.

 

I'd actually rather hit Murton and Walker 1-2 than pick up Furcal and Pierre.

[badgercub]

Why not have them so they can both get on base?

 

Would you bat them 1-2? Not necessarily a good idea.

 

Furcal and Pierre both came to bat 81 times last season with a man on first and less than 2 outs. Both players hit into 13 double plays. The double play percentage works out to 16%, roughly one in every six opportunities.

 

Neifi's DP% was 22%, so either Furcal or Pierre would be an improvement, but we already have Todd Walker, whose DP rate was just 9%.

 

I'd actually rather hit Murton and Walker 1-2 than pick up Furcal and Pierre.

 

Does anyone honestly believe Walker is going to be a Cub this season? IMO the only reason the Cubs picked up his option is because at that salary it makes him an extremely valuable trade commodity. Along with some young pitching he is probalby going to be the centerpiece to any deal that brings in a major upgrade to the outfield.

[YearofDaCubs]

I'd prefer we trade for Luis Castillo over Furcal and Pierre. That being said, I'd rather have Furcal than Pierre.

 

My issue is if we have Furcal to lead-off, why trade for Pierre. It seems a little redundant to me.

Perfectly stated. Furcal and Castillo would be VERY Nice though. :D

[cheapseats]

Nope, I don't believe Walker will be a Cub this year, and I think that's a shame.

 

His VORPr was exactly the same as Alfonso Soriano's last year, and he's a better defender (still below average, but better than Soriano).

 

I'll hate to see him go.

 

Why not have them so they can both get on base?

 

Would you bat them 1-2? Not necessarily a good idea.

 

Furcal and Pierre both came to bat 81 times last season with a man on first and less than 2 outs. Both players hit into 13 double plays. The double play percentage works out to 16%, roughly one in every six opportunities.

 

Neifi's DP% was 22%, so either Furcal or Pierre would be an improvement, but we already have Todd Walker, whose DP rate was just 9%.

 

I'd actually rather hit Murton and Walker 1-2 than pick up Furcal and Pierre.

 

Does anyone honestly believe Walker is going to be a Cub this season? IMO the only reason the Cubs picked up his option is because at that salary it makes him an extremely valuable trade commodity. Along with some young pitching he is probalby going to be the centerpiece to any deal that brings in a major upgrade

 

to the outfield.

[CuseCubFan69]

There has to be something about Walker that really bugs Hendry/Baker. I just think there is something we don't know about and that is the reason why he is getting moved more than his abilities. I understand that the push for defense and speed is big with Hendry right now but something here just doesn't add up.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

There has to be something about Walker that really bugs Hendry/Baker. I just think there is something we don't know about and that is the reason why he is getting moved more than his abilities. I understand that the push for defense and speed is big with Hendry right now but something here just doesn't add up.

 

I think Walker could have been the cause that we didn't re-sign Baker's girlfried, and maybe that hasn't ever sat very well with Dusty.

[Neuby]

As vance stated Pierre and Furcal seems like a bit much. Others have stated what we really need is Bradley. He's a much better defender than Pierre. He's a more complete player. What the Cubs are going to pay for Pierre in talent and money it could be used better elsewhere.

 

Furcal

Bradley

Lee

Dunn

Ramirez

Barrett

Murton

Cedeno

 

The money and players saved in getting Pierre could afford the Cubs a chance at getting Dunn, Giles, ect.

Say the Cubs land Bradley on then make a move for Dunn . Sign Furcal, and still have the change left over to make a run at Burnett.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

As vance stated Pierre and Furcal seems like a bit much. Others have stated what we really need is Bradley. He's a much better defender than Pierre. He's a more complete player. What the Cubs are going to pay for Pierre in talent and money it could be used better elsewhere.

 

Furcal

Bradley

Lee

Dunn

Ramirez

Barrett

Murton

Cedeno

 

The money and players saved in getting Pierre could afford the Cubs a chance at getting Dunn, Giles, ect.

Say the Cubs land Bradley on then make a move for Dunn . Sign Furcal, and still have the change left over to make a run at Burnett.

 

Supposedly Hendry has a serious jones for Pierre and he's the number 1 priority. Hendry is the man.

[Rooftop Bum]

I don't know. I like Walker as a number 2 hitter but leadoff? He just does seem to be a guy that gets on base all that much for a leadoff hitter. Maybe I am wrong and someone will post some stats. I kind of like the leadoff hitter to have some better speed than Walker does. I can't imagin Walker getting on leadoff and stealing a base. I can with Furcal and Pierre. Thus setting up more chances to hit the leadoff man in. If he gets on base that is :)

[Mizzou]

As vance stated Pierre and Furcal seems like a bit much. Others have stated what we really need is Bradley. He's a much better defender than Pierre. He's a more complete player. What the Cubs are going to pay for Pierre in talent and money it could be used better elsewhere.

 

Furcal

Bradley

Lee

Dunn

Ramirez

Barrett

Murton

Cedeno

 

The money and players saved in getting Pierre could afford the Cubs a chance at getting Dunn, Giles, ect.

Say the Cubs land Bradley on then make a move for Dunn . Sign Furcal, and still have the change left over to make a run at Burnett.

 

Supposedly Hendry has a serious jones for Pierre and he's the number 1 priority. Hendry is the man.

 

I haven't seen anything that said that Pierre is Hendry's top priority - everything I've read says that Furcal is.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

As vance stated Pierre and Furcal seems like a bit much. Others have stated what we really need is Bradley. He's a much better defender than Pierre. He's a more complete player. What the Cubs are going to pay for Pierre in talent and money it could be used better elsewhere.

 

Furcal

Bradley

Lee

Dunn

Ramirez

Barrett

Murton

Cedeno

 

The money and players saved in getting Pierre could afford the Cubs a chance at getting Dunn, Giles, ect.

Say the Cubs land Bradley on then make a move for Dunn . Sign Furcal, and still have the change left over to make a run at Burnett.

 

Supposedly Hendry has a serious jones for Pierre and he's the number 1 priority. Hendry is the man.

 

I haven't seen anything that said that Pierre is Hendry's top priority - everything I've read says that Furcal is.

 

Furcal is the top FA priority. Pierre is the Hendry's top priority (according to Bruce Levine).

 

here's where i heard the pierre "priority" stuff:

 

Levine on ESPN Radio right now (paraphrasing follows):

 

Top priority is trade for Pierre.

 

Furcal is right behind that. Atl and Chi appear to be the only viable options for Furcal.

 

The Cubs could be close to something this weekend. Could be Pierre or McDougal. JH is also likely to talk with the Reds in the next 7-10 days re Dunn or Kearns.

 

Cubs may revisit Giles, but he's on the "back burner". Levine sees him as a two year option.

 

He made it sound like Nomar will not be back.

 

Levine thinks Hendry wants to "add and add".

Edited November 12, 2005 by Meat&PotatoesMan

[Warpticon]

I think Pierre is relatively low production for the position. I'd rather have Furcal. I definitely don't want both, as that's a pretty big sacrifice in power at two positions that has to be made up somewhere without enough gain in OBP to justify it (both are solid, but neither is challenging the .400 mark). And they're redundant, and expensive, to boot.

[Jehrico]

I'd rather get Bradley over Pierre.

- Handling players like that is supposed to be Dusty's fort'e.

- He's considerably better than Pierre.

- He won't cost near as much as Pierre, money or prospect wise.

 

Considering the above three factors, Bradley is a relatively low gamble. We could keep CPatt if we get Bradley. if he is out of control the first half, give CPatt the job back, or, if he's tearing up AAA, bring up Pie (I'd rather not see that happen in '06, but Hendry already seems convinced the kid is ready).

[JeffH]

I want both Furcal and Pierre.

 

Rafael Furcal: $45 million over five years

 

Juan Pierre: Some talent in trade and $5.5 million for one year

 

Not having your manager bat an outmaker second: Priceless

[Andy]

As vance stated Pierre and Furcal seems like a bit much. Others have stated what we really need is Bradley. He's a much better defender than Pierre. He's a more complete player. What the Cubs are going to pay for Pierre in talent and money it could be used better elsewhere.

 

Furcal

Bradley

Lee

Dunn

Ramirez

Barrett

Murton

Cedeno

 

The money and players saved in getting Pierre could afford the Cubs a chance at getting Dunn, Giles, ect.

Say the Cubs land Bradley on then make a move for Dunn . Sign Furcal, and still have the change left over to make a run at Burnett.

I'd be ecstatic at that lineup if JH could pull it off.