so dusty's not afraid to play young players, eh?

[abuck1220]

after some discussion in the other thread about other teams that use young guys, i got to thinking just how many teams currently have a rookie/2nd year guy in the everyday lineup, rotation or as the closer.

 

guess how many teams...

 

a) don't have a guy w/ less than two years of service time currently in their lineup, their rotation or as the closer

 

or

 

b) haven't given at least 10 starts to such a pitcher or 30 starts to such a position player?

 

ONE....the cubs.

 

the only teams to come close were...

 

the padres, who have given 10+ starts to stauffer.

 

the twins (surprisingly), who have mauer at catcher.

 

the red sox, who currently have papelbon in their rotation.

[CubfaninCA]

You're obsessed w/ Baker.

 

Maybe the Cubs farm system just suks.

[abuck1220]

you're obsessed with disagreeing with everything i say.

 

which is worse?

[cbbryan]

You're obsessed w/ Baker.

 

Maybe the Cubs farm system just suks.

 

How would you know what the kids on the farm can do? I think it's a legit point especially given the situation that the Cubs have been in throughout the year.

 

Whether you're tired of hearing about Baker's shortcomings, or not. It's hard to defend the guy when he continued to trot out Neifi to SS and let Cedeno sit on the bench. When Corey went down and Murton was batting over .400, Macias (that's right MACIAS) started in CF. Not only is that frustrating, but it's especially frustrating going into the offseason. How do you fill needs when you don't know what your needs are?

 

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe the problem isn't that the Cubs haven't developed the talent.................just that they didn't give the young player the opportunity to showcase that talent? No one on this board or the Cubs front office can tell if Cedeno or Murton can fill a need for this team on a daily basis because they were not played when the opportunity to showcase them was available.

 

How do you evaluate and size-up talent on the big league level if the players don't play? How do you not put the youth out there when the opportunity presents itself?

 

Every team has injuries every year. Look at the Cards and Braves for examples. The Cardinals have had Rolen out most of the year, Walker's been out a great deal of the second half, Sanders has been out for a great deal of time as well. That's 2/3 of your starting OF and a gold-glove/power hitting 3B.................yet they're still 900 games over .500 and uncatchable in the Central Division.

 

Think about it. Derrick Lee, while he's struggling now, for the majority of the first half and into the second half was leading in all triple crown categories. He's still in the top 5 in all of them even with his recent struggles (I believe). Quietly, A-Ram is right there with DLee in almost all of the triple crown categories, minus the batting average (he's still over .300 though). Had the Cubs played Cedeno and Murton and they had both been successful (we don't know if they would have been our not.) where would the Cubs be now? Who knows because it didn't happen. Maybe we don't lose 8 straight.

 

So not only do you waste valuable time to see where these guys are at and what they can do at the ML level. How do you address your needs as a ballclub after the season? I don't know how Hendry can have fully grasp of what he needs and what he doesn't need. And that in itself is a shame.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

You're obsessed w/ Baker.

 

Maybe the Cubs farm system just suks.

Amazing how every team except the Cubs have found a way to get production from their farm system in the last 2 years. It's amazing that the Cubs have that much worse of a system than every other team despite the fact that they are normally ranked in the top third of the league.

[CubfaninCA]

you're obsessed with disagreeing with everything i say.

 

which is worse?

 

Obviously disagreeing w/ you is worse.

[Beer Kaese]

You're obsessed w/ Baker.

 

Maybe the Cubs farm system just suks.

 

How would you know what the kids on the farm can do? I think it's a legit point especially given the situation that the Cubs have been in throughout the year.

 

Whether you're tired of hearing about Baker's shortcomings, or not. It's hard to defend the guy when he continued to trot out Neifi to SS and let Cedeno sit on the bench. When Corey went down and Murton was batting over .400, Macias (that's right MACIAS) started in CF. Not only is that frustrating, but it's especially frustrating going into the offseason. How do you fill needs when you don't know what your needs are?

 

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe the problem isn't that the Cubs haven't developed the talent.................just that they didn't give the young player the opportunity to showcase that talent? No one on this board or the Cubs front office can tell if Cedeno or Murton can fill a need for this team on a daily basis because they were not played when the opportunity to showcase them was available.

 

How do you evaluate and size-up talent on the big league level if the players don't play? How do you not put the youth out there when the opportunity presents itself?

 

Every team has injuries every year. Look at the Cards and Braves for examples. The Cardinals have had Rolen out most of the year, Walker's been out a great deal of the second half, Sanders has been out for a great deal of time as well. That's 2/3 of your starting OF and a gold-glove/power hitting 3B.................yet they're still 900 games over .500 and uncatchable in the Central Division.

 

Think about it. Derrick Lee, while he's struggling now, for the majority of the first half and into the second half was leading in all triple crown categories. He's still in the top 5 in all of them even with his recent struggles (I believe). Quietly, A-Ram is right there with DLee in almost all of the triple crown categories, minus the batting average (he's still over .300 though). Had the Cubs played Cedeno and Murton and they had both been successful (we don't know if they would have been our not.) where would the Cubs be now? Who knows because it didn't happen. Maybe we don't lose 8 straight.

 

So not only do you waste valuable time to see where these guys are at and what they can do at the ML level. How do you address your needs as a ballclub after the season? I don't know how Hendry can have fully grasp of what he needs and what he doesn't need. And that in itself is a shame.

 

I didn't have a problem with Macias getting those starts in center. If Burnitz was the only other option, it would have been a mistake forcing the tired man into a more demanding position. Aside from that, I'm 100% with you.

 

If Hendry doesn't make Baker go away, Hendry needs to go away.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

You're obsessed w/ Baker.

 

Maybe the Cubs farm system just suks.

 

Which is why the Cubs farm system is routinely ranked in the top 10 in all of baseball.

[abuck1220]

you're obsessed with disagreeing with everything i say.

 

which is worse?

 

Obviously disagreeing w/ you is worse.

 

no...i was wrong to question the cubs' way. obviously, this refusal to play young players is working out great. they are under .500 with one of the highest payrolls in baseball, so they obviously know what they are doing. i say if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[ToupeeOnFire]

I'm sure this article has been discussed somewhere on this site, but I'll provide the link here:

Cubs Baker: No on-the-job training during playoff chase

 

Some choice bits from an article that is pretty revealing in regard to Dusty's thought process...

 

'They talk about me and kids and [stuff]. How many kids I got?'' Baker said. ''Damn near half my team is kids. Probably 80 percent of my pitchers. You look at [Cardinals manager] Tony La Russa, how many kids has he ever had? He has nothing but veterans on his team, and he always has.''

 

'The only thing about teaching at the big-league level is you can't teach them until they make a mistake,'' he said.

 

''You don't tell a guy about the cutoff man until he misses it. You assume they know that stuff when they get here.

 

''That's the only thing about teaching at the big-league level is that they make mistakes here. At the minor-league level, if they make mistakes, it's going to be in the Des Moines Gazette. It's not in USA Today or on ESPN, showing you getting picked off.''

 

The first quote is pretty silly. Technically, Dusty may be not too far off about the 80% figure. If we count players under age 27 as youngsters, you get Prior, Zambrano, Williams, Wuertz, Ohman, Wellemyer, and Novoa. 58% of the pitching staff can probably be labeled as young. But extending that definition to the position players leaves you with only Matt Murton and Corey Patterson. That is 9 out of 25.

 

Regardless, you get the sense that having young players on the roster is somehow beneath Dusty's dignity. After all, you don't see Tony LaRussa have to put up with that crap.

 

The second quote is more infuriating than anything else. It's like there is a sword of Dusticles hanging over the head of any rookie that dares make a mistake. Quite a double standard, too. If it is a rookie making a mistake, it is because of a lack of coaching. If it is a veteran (you know, like your veteran SS failing to touch second base for a crucial out in the ninth inning of a game against a division rival), well them's the breaks. If Dusty had a low threshold for sloppy play, that would be one thing; but it is clear he has two sets of standards.

 

Also there is the "The only thing about teaching at the big-league level is you can't teach them until they make a mistake," quote which displays a disturbing laissez-faire approach when it comes to developing younger players. I suspect that is probably one of the telling differences between an organization like the Braves and the Cubs. I suspect the Braves take a pro-active approach with their younger players, understanding fully that instruction doesn't end at the minor leagues. With the Cubs, well, you get the sense that they are waiting until somebody screws up.

[spinefixer]

I'm sure this article has been discussed somewhere on this site, but I'll provide the link here:

Cubs Baker: No on-the-job training during playoff chase

 

Some choice bits from an article that is pretty revealing in regard to Dusty's thought process...

 

'They talk about me and kids and [stuff]. How many kids I got?'' Baker said. ''Damn near half my team is kids. Probably 80 percent of my pitchers. You look at [Cardinals manager] Tony La Russa, how many kids has he ever had? He has nothing but veterans on his team, and he always has.''

 

'The only thing about teaching at the big-league level is you can't teach them until they make a mistake,'' he said.

 

''You don't tell a guy about the cutoff man until he misses it. You assume they know that stuff when they get here.

 

''That's the only thing about teaching at the big-league level is that they make mistakes here. At the minor-league level, if they make mistakes, it's going to be in the Des Moines Gazette. It's not in USA Today or on ESPN, showing you getting picked off.''

 

The first quote is pretty silly. Technically, Dusty may be not too far off about the 80% figure. If we count players under age 27 as youngsters, you get Prior, Zambrano, Williams, Wuertz, Ohman, Wellemyer, and Novoa. 58% of the pitching staff can probably be labeled as young. But extending that definition to the position players leaves you with only Matt Murton and Corey Patterson. That is 9 out of 25.

 

Regardless, you get the sense that having young players on the roster is somehow beneath Dusty's dignity. After all, you don't see Tony LaRussa have to put up with that crap.

 

The second quote is more infuriating than anything else. It's like there is a sword of Dusticles hanging over the head of any rookie that dares make a mistake. Quite a double standard, too. If it is a rookie making a mistake, it is because of a lack of coaching. If it is a veteran (you know, like your veteran SS failing to touch second base for a crucial out in the ninth inning of a game against a division rival), well them's the breaks. If Dusty had a low threshold for sloppy play, that would be one thing; but it is clear he has two sets of standards.

 

Also there is the "The only thing about teaching at the big-league level is you can't teach them until they make a mistake," quote which displays a disturbing laissez-faire approach when it comes to developing younger players. I suspect that is probably one of the telling differences between an organization like the Braves and the Cubs. I suspect the Braves take a pro-active approach with their younger players, understanding fully that instruction doesn't end at the minor leagues. With the Cubs, well, you get the sense that they are waiting until somebody screws up.

 

 

Actually Dusty, it's the Des Moines Register and you'd be suprised by how little they point out mistakes.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Dusty Baker is bad

[UK1679666180]

after some discussion in the other thread about other teams that use young guys, i got to thinking just how many teams currently have a rookie/2nd year guy in the everyday lineup, rotation or as the closer.

 

guess how many teams...

 

a) don't have a guy w/ less than two years of service time currently in their lineup, their rotation or as the closer

 

or

 

b) haven't given at least 10 starts to such a pitcher or 30 starts to such a position player?

 

ONE....the cubs.

 

the only teams to come close were...

 

the padres, who have given 10+ starts to stauffer.

 

the twins (surprisingly), who have mauer at catcher.

 

the red sox, who currently have papelbon in their rotation.

 

You needed proof to validate your assumption? Common sense would've saved you time. :)

[CubsFaninPA]

Just sort of jumped in at lunchtime at work. I do have to disagree with the second statement that Dusty said.

 

'The only thing about teaching at the big-league level is you can't teach them until they make a mistake,'' he said.

 

''You don't tell a guy about the cutoff man until he misses it. You assume they know that stuff when they get here."

 

A good teacher can put someone in a situation and teach before it actually happens. I don't believe you need someone to make a mistake in order to be able to teach them. That should be an on-going process and started before any mistake. JMO

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Just sort of jumped in at lunchtime at work. I do have to disagree with the second statement that Dusty said.

 

'The only thing about teaching at the big-league level is you can't teach them until they make a mistake,'' he said.

 

''You don't tell a guy about the cutoff man until he misses it. You assume they know that stuff when they get here."

 

A good teacher can put someone in a situation and teach before it actually happens. I don't believe you need someone to make a mistake in order to be able to teach them. That should be an on-going process and started before any mistake. JMO

 

Exactly. That's an awful attitude to coaching.

[Electron Blue]

Just sort of jumped in at lunchtime at work. I do have to disagree with the second statement that Dusty said.

 

'The only thing about teaching at the big-league level is you can't teach them until they make a mistake,'' he said.

 

''You don't tell a guy about the cutoff man until he misses it. You assume they know that stuff when they get here."

 

A good teacher can put someone in a situation and teach before it actually happens. I don't believe you need someone to make a mistake in order to be able to teach them. That should be an on-going process and started before any mistake. JMO

 

Well, I'll agree with Dusty that players should have the fundamentals down by the time they reach the majors. But the way he phrases this is either accidental or frustrating. It sounds like he thinks it's not his job to continue to refine his players' fundamentals. It sounds like he puts very little focus on practicing them . . . which would explain alot.

[Chris]

Maybe the Cubs farm system just suks.

 

Um, no, not the case.

[Ram1380]

Maybe Baker sucks.

 

 

Maybe he is a self-serving, to the detreiment of his team, pompous donkey?

[erik316wttn]

Maybe we should ask Matt Murton and Ronnie Cedeno what Dusty thinks of playing young players.

 

Oh, well, we'd have to catch up to them in Iowa first.

[abuck1220]

after some discussion in the other thread about other teams that use young guys, i got to thinking just how many teams currently have a rookie/2nd year guy in the everyday lineup, rotation or as the closer.

 

guess how many teams...

 

a) don't have a guy w/ less than two years of service time currently in their lineup, their rotation or as the closer

 

or

 

b) haven't given at least 10 starts to such a pitcher or 30 starts to such a position player?

 

ONE....the cubs.

 

the only teams to come close were...

 

the padres, who have given 10+ starts to stauffer.

 

the twins (surprisingly), who have mauer at catcher.

 

the red sox, who currently have papelbon in their rotation.

 

You needed proof to validate your assumption? Common sense would've saved you time. :)

 

every once in a while i like to throw some facts in there to back up my wild accusations...just for something different. :D

[abuck1220]

I'm sure this article has been discussed somewhere on this site, but I'll provide the link here:

Cubs Baker: No on-the-job training during playoff chase

 

Some choice bits from an article that is pretty revealing in regard to Dusty's thought process...

 

'They talk about me and kids and [stuff]. How many kids I got?'' Baker said. ''Damn near half my team is kids. Probably 80 percent of my pitchers. You look at [Cardinals manager] Tony La Russa, how many kids has he ever had? He has nothing but veterans on his team, and he always has.''

 

'The only thing about teaching at the big-league level is you can't teach them until they make a mistake,'' he said.

 

''You don't tell a guy about the cutoff man until he misses it. You assume they know that stuff when they get here.

 

''That's the only thing about teaching at the big-league level is that they make mistakes here. At the minor-league level, if they make mistakes, it's going to be in the Des Moines Gazette. It's not in USA Today or on ESPN, showing you getting picked off.''

 

 

i love how dusty lumps zambrano and prior into his 'young players' category. gee, thanks for sticking with two of the best pitchers in baseball instead of throwing estes, kirk rueter or glendon rusch out there. and it's not like he took a wild chance on a scronny AA guy with those two...they were pretty well established in the rotation when he got here.

 

and we wouldn't want a youngster out there making fundamental mistakes...thank goodness we have his veteran-laden team out there playing fundamentally sound baseball. :roll:

[cbbryan]

You're obsessed w/ Baker.

 

Maybe the Cubs farm system just suks.

 

How would you know what the kids on the farm can do? I think it's a legit point especially given the situation that the Cubs have been in throughout the year.

 

Whether you're tired of hearing about Baker's shortcomings, or not. It's hard to defend the guy when he continued to trot out Neifi to SS and let Cedeno sit on the bench. When Corey went down and Murton was batting over .400, Macias (that's right MACIAS) started in CF. Not only is that frustrating, but it's especially frustrating going into the offseason. How do you fill needs when you don't know what your needs are?

 

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe the problem isn't that the Cubs haven't developed the talent.................just that they didn't give the young player the opportunity to showcase that talent? No one on this board or the Cubs front office can tell if Cedeno or Murton can fill a need for this team on a daily basis because they were not played when the opportunity to showcase them was available.

 

How do you evaluate and size-up talent on the big league level if the players don't play? How do you not put the youth out there when the opportunity presents itself?

 

Every team has injuries every year. Look at the Cards and Braves for examples. The Cardinals have had Rolen out most of the year, Walker's been out a great deal of the second half, Sanders has been out for a great deal of time as well. That's 2/3 of your starting OF and a gold-glove/power hitting 3B.................yet they're still 900 games over .500 and uncatchable in the Central Division.

 

Think about it. Derrick Lee, while he's struggling now, for the majority of the first half and into the second half was leading in all triple crown categories. He's still in the top 5 in all of them even with his recent struggles (I believe). Quietly, A-Ram is right there with DLee in almost all of the triple crown categories, minus the batting average (he's still over .300 though). Had the Cubs played Cedeno and Murton and they had both been successful (we don't know if they would have been our not.) where would the Cubs be now? Who knows because it didn't happen. Maybe we don't lose 8 straight.

 

So not only do you waste valuable time to see where these guys are at and what they can do at the ML level. How do you address your needs as a ballclub after the season? I don't know how Hendry can have fully grasp of what he needs and what he doesn't need. And that in itself is a shame.

 

I didn't have a problem with Macias getting those starts in center. If Burnitz was the only other option, it would have been a mistake forcing the tired man into a more demanding position. Aside from that, I'm 100% with you.

 

If Hendry doesn't make Baker go away, Hendry needs to go away.

 

Actually, Burnitz did play some CF before CPatt came back up. At least Burnitz is an OF and has an OF arm (not Vlad's, but better then Macias). Macias was awful and it's just plain inexcusable to march him out there for a single start in CF, let alone 4-5 in a row when your teams is in the middle of a wild card chase and you're playing a team you were tied w/ at the time..............

 

The Mets took full advantage of Macias in CF and they produced runs because of it. Which is exactly why we got beat in that series........they scored more runs. Problem is, they scored some runs that they shouldn't have scored because Dusty refused to play players in proper places and chose to play a utility infielder in CF rather then an OF in an OF spot.

 

I'm not saying that Burnitz is a great CF, but isn't it less of a stretch to play an OF out of position IN the OF as opposed to playing an infielder out of position IN the OF? Doesn't seem to me like it takes a whole lot of brain power to figure that out.........................could be wrong, though.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

after some discussion in the other thread about other teams that use young guys, i got to thinking just how many teams currently have a rookie/2nd year guy in the everyday lineup, rotation or as the closer.

 

guess how many teams...

 

a) don't have a guy w/ less than two years of service time currently in their lineup, their rotation or as the closer

 

or

 

b) haven't given at least 10 starts to such a pitcher or 30 starts to such a position player?

 

ONE....the cubs.

 

the only teams to come close were...

 

the padres, who have given 10+ starts to stauffer.

 

the twins (surprisingly), who have mauer at catcher.

 

the red sox, who currently have papelbon in their rotation.

 

You needed proof to validate your assumption? Common sense would've saved you time. :)

 

every once in a while i like to throw some facts in there to back up my wild accusations...just for something different. :D

 

I'm waiting for you to toss in a capital letter or two "just for something different." :P

[burnt out cubbie fan]

I just heard on the Score, and this isn't exact since I am going off of memory but it is what he basically said, that Dusty said that the reason that the Braves are more successful with calling guys up is because they bring them up a year later when the players are more refined while the Cubs bring players up a year earlier. This stuff is really starting to annoy me. The Braves currently have two players on their 25 man roster that are 21 years old. They have two more players that are 23 years old. They had Marte up earlier in the year and he is 21. They have brought up 9 out of their top 15 prospects this year. Andruw Jones was 19 when he was called up. Chipper Jones was 22 when he was called up. Furcal was 19 as well. Jermaine Dye came up at 22. Klesko had cups at 21 and 22 and was up at 23. Glavine came up at 21. Same with Smoltz. If Dusty is going to make excuses to play his favorites, he should at least come up with ones that aren't as easy to shoot down.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

You know what is also so amazing about the Braves is that they are always drafting in the bottom part of the draft. They haven't gotten a top 15 or so pick in the last 10-15 years. They never have a chance to draft the studs like A-Rod or Tex or Prior or Mauer.