Has anyone else had enough...............??

[NomarSammy]

Of the constant bickering on this board about Dusty Baker and Jim Hendry?

 

I mean, I too disagree with some of the decision that Dusty has made, but honestly--people on here think they would be happy with someone else, then he would mange for 2 years and then they would hate him too. I mean the job is not that easy!!! He has had 88 and 89 wins in his first 2 years, this year has been a disappointment for several reasons, but to think that getting rid of Dusty is going to solve all of our miserable problems is unrealistic IMO!

 

As far as Hendry goes--I think he has done a fine job--period! He has made unbelievable trades and gotten several quality players, just hasn't been able to put it all together quite yet. I think we all just need to watch, be fans and be somewhat PATIENT.

 

Just some opinions--not saying that either of the 2 is the greatest ever at their position, but I think they are bettter than most give them credit for.

 

Anyone else have opinions??

[sandberg23]

My biggest reason for not liking Dusty is his abuse of pitchers and how he routinely mismanages his players and not putting the best product on the field. I'll be glad when he's gone. With the talent he was given, he should have surpassed the win total he has here.

[Tracer Bullet]

I think Dusty's penchant for playing Holly, Neifi, and Macias instead of giving young players that tore up AAA a legitmate shot cost us wins. Putting Corey & Neifi 1-2 when they each had OBP at or under .300, instructing batters to be aggressive and downplaying the importance of walking and OBP, his abuse of the young pitching staff - all of these things have hurt the Cubs in wins. I have no idea how to calculate how many wins Dusty has cost the Cubs, but at least this year, a few wins for this team could mean the difference between going to the playoffs and not. I'm not saying we should be leading the Central, but we shouldn't be under .500 in mid-August either.

[rawaction]

Well, many of us didn't think Dusty was the right fit in the first place. To be honest, I think the Cubs have done as well as could be expected considering all the injuries. I don't fault Baker for "only" winning 88 and 89 games the last 2 years. I don't think a manager should get credit for wins anyway. He can affect the loss column easier, but I don't think Dusty has managed the Cubs to a less than normal amount of losses.

 

However, there are plenty of things under a manager's control that I fault him for. I fault him the 2004 Chicago Crybabies, who whined away the end of their season. I fault him partly for the Sosa fiasco (not as much as I fault Sammy himself and Hendry). I fault him for the numerous 6+ game losing streaks where his team plays with little effort and professionalism. I fault him for the general unprofessionalism in the clubhouse and the overall sloppiness on the field.

 

Face it, Dusty was brought in as a player's manager, a disciplinarian, and a motivator. He has failed in all those areas, regardless of what he's done with the team on the field.

[ToupeeOnFire]

Face it, Dusty was brought in as a player's manager, a disciplinarian, and a motivator. He has failed in all those areas, regardless of what he's done with the team on the field.

 

Certainly Dusty wasn't brought in as a disciplinarian. He never had that rep in San Francisco. If anything, Dusty was brought in because he wasn't disciplinarian. Had he been, he would have clashed with Bonds on more than one occasion. Instead, he gave Bonds carte blanche, and it was players like Jeff Kent that clashed with Barry. To his credit, Dusty did appear to do a good job of diffusing those situations.

 

Dusty was brought in because he was a massager of egos -- a Phil Jackson of sorts. One of things you constantly heard about Baker after he was hired was how well he worked with Bonds, ergo he was the perfect choice to manage a Sammy Sosa led team. But, as you said, he didn't do a very good job of handing the 2004 fiasco; and without his supposed strength, what else does he offer?

[CDBears1259]

Two events stand out in my mind and are the strongest reason in my opinion for a change in manager: 1) the 2003 playoff collapse and 2) the late season collapse last year.

Less specific reasons are the numerous ups and downs of this year, the inability to reign in players a la Merker and Alou last year and the stunning ability to let things get out of the clubhouse that should stay there.

While his managerial decision often drive me nuts, I really have a hard time complaining about them because although the decisions often seem obvious, Baker is the type who manages on instinct and not the stats. This is something that, while I don't like, was not entirely unexpected.

I'm sure I could go on with more examples and explanation, but I think most of you understand where I'm coming from.

[XZero771679666304]

Face it, Dusty was brought in as a player's manager, a disciplinarian, and a motivator. He has failed in all those areas, regardless of what he's done with the team on the field.

 

Certainly Dusty wasn't brought in as a disciplinarian. He never had that rep in San Francisco. If anything, Dusty was brought in because he wasn't disciplinarian. Had he been, he would have clashed with Bonds on more than one occasion. Instead, he gave Bonds carte blanche, and it was players like Jeff Kent that clashed with Barry. To his credit, Dusty did appear to do a good job of diffusing those situations.

 

Dusty was brought in because he was a massager of egos -- a Phil Jackson of sorts. One of things you constantly heard about Baker after he was hired was how well he worked with Bonds, ergo he was the perfect choice to manage a Sammy Sosa led team. But, as you said, he didn't do a very good job of handing the 2004 fiasco; and without his supposed strength, what else does he offer?

 

Dusty may be the least disciplinary manger in the game.

[SirPlopigus]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

[rawaction]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

 

Yep, sure can. But not when he's coaching the team with the highest payroll in the league (including Sosa's money). And you're kidding yourself if you think this is the 1 bad year. Last Sept was absolutely dispicable. Dusty clearly lost control of his team. The Cubs have been in the top 3 in payroll in the NL for all his 3 years, and they got 1 playoff berth, with a mediocre 88 wins. Regardless of the wins/losses, Dusty has lost complete control. The team was fighting with their own broadcasters, leaving early, quit on him. This year, the team has had several spans of horrible baseball. Point is, he hasn't done what he was brought in here to do. He wasn't a good fit then, he's not a good fit now.

[SirPlopigus]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

 

Yep, sure can. But not when he's coaching the team with the highest payroll in the league (including Sosa's money). And you're kidding yourself if you think this is the 1 bad year. Last Sept was absolutely dispicable. Dusty clearly lost control of his team. The Cubs have been in the top 3 in payroll in the NL for all his 3 years, and they got 1 playoff berth, with a mediocre 88 wins. Regardless of the wins/losses, Dusty has lost complete control. The team was fighting with their own broadcasters, leaving early, quit on him. This year, the team has had several spans of horrible baseball. Point is, he hasn't done what he was brought in here to do. He wasn't a good fit then, he's not a good fit now.

What you just talked about was the players not the manager, sure Baker should be able to control them, but if the players have bad attitudes they aren't going to listen to the manager. JMO.

[Soul]

I think we all just need to watch, be fans and be somewhat PATIENT.

 

Just some opinions--not saying that either of the 2 is the greatest ever at their position, but I think they are bettter than most give them credit for.

 

Anyone else have opinions??

 

Yeah. We've been patient for 100 years. How much more patience do we need to have?

 

But I do appreciate your point of view.

[rawaction]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

 

Yep, sure can. But not when he's coaching the team with the highest payroll in the league (including Sosa's money). And you're kidding yourself if you think this is the 1 bad year. Last Sept was absolutely dispicable. Dusty clearly lost control of his team. The Cubs have been in the top 3 in payroll in the NL for all his 3 years, and they got 1 playoff berth, with a mediocre 88 wins. Regardless of the wins/losses, Dusty has lost complete control. The team was fighting with their own broadcasters, leaving early, quit on him. This year, the team has had several spans of horrible baseball. Point is, he hasn't done what he was brought in here to do. He wasn't a good fit then, he's not a good fit now.

What you just talked about was the players not the manager, sure Baker should be able to control them, but if the players have bad attitudes they aren't going to listen to the manager. JMO.

 

And Hendry got rid of Mercker, Alou, Sosa, Farnsworth, and Hawkins....the main culprits. Granted, this team hasn't had the same blowups in the media....but the team has still not shown up to play on numerous occassions this year.

 

And BTW, what is a manager's job to you? What seriously can a manager in baseball do besides put his team in position to win and control the clubhouse?

[XZero771679666304]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

 

Yep, sure can. But not when he's coaching the team with the highest payroll in the league (including Sosa's money). And you're kidding yourself if you think this is the 1 bad year. Last Sept was absolutely dispicable. Dusty clearly lost control of his team. The Cubs have been in the top 3 in payroll in the NL for all his 3 years, and they got 1 playoff berth, with a mediocre 88 wins. Regardless of the wins/losses, Dusty has lost complete control. The team was fighting with their own broadcasters, leaving early, quit on him. This year, the team has had several spans of horrible baseball. Point is, he hasn't done what he was brought in here to do. He wasn't a good fit then, he's not a good fit now.

What you just talked about was the players not the manager, sure Baker should be able to control them, but if the players have bad attitudes they aren't going to listen to the manager. JMO.

 

And Hendry got rid of Mercker, Alou, Sosa, Farnsworth, and Hawkins....the main culprits. Granted, this team hasn't had the same blowups in the media....but the team has still not shown up to play on numerous occassions this year.

 

And BTW, what is a manager's job to you? What seriously can a manager in baseball do besides put his team in position to win and control the clubhouse?

 

Exactly. If the coaching staff is responsible for fundamentals and the players are responsible for their attitudes, are the Cubs paying Baker 4 million to fill out lineup cards and sit on the bench (which he does quite poorly)?

[Satch80]

The poor fundamentals, sloppy defense and lack of focus is a reflection of the manager.

Dusty seems to believe in players policing themselves. Well, when it doesn't happen, the manager needs to hold them accountable.

 

It really doesn't matter the style of the manager, just the substance.

That's what translates into results. Tolerating the caliber of play we have

witnessed over and over is inexcusable . The fact that no one has been benched for failing to hustle or keep their head in the game is implied tolerance. And the players know this.

 

There are certainly teams he could manage well. In SF he had essentially a veteran team with old school leadership and an experienced pitching staff. His personality and people skills were ideal for this situation.

Such is not the case with the Cubs.

 

Experienced players such as Burnitz and Aram are not leaders and Aram ( even with injuries) is part of the perception of a non hustling team.

If Nomar had played full season it might have helped.

 

Bottom line, Dusty is not a good fit for this team. If he continues on, Hendry has to factor in Dusty's shortcomings when constructing the 2006 Cubs otherwise we'll be looking at a rerun.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

 

But that assumes all the credit to back-to-back winning seasons is given to Dusty. If that's the case, one should give him the blame for the choke the last week of the season, making last year a bad year too.

 

Raw, I've never heard of Dusty as a disciplinarian. Certainly a player's manager and a motivator, but never a disiplinarian.

[Cubfanintheknow]

Of the constant bickering on this board about Dusty Baker and Jim Hendry?

 

I mean, I too disagree with some of the decision that Dusty has made, but honestly--people on here think they would be happy with someone else, then he would mange for 2 years and then they would hate him too. I mean the job is not that easy!!! He has had 88 and 89 wins in his first 2 years, this year has been a disappointment for several reasons, but to think that getting rid of Dusty is going to solve all of our miserable problems is unrealistic IMO!

 

As far as Hendry goes--I think he has done a fine job--period! He has made unbelievable trades and gotten several quality players, just hasn't been able to put it all together quite yet. I think we all just need to watch, be fans and be somewhat PATIENT.

 

Just some opinions--not saying that either of the 2 is the greatest ever at their position, but I think they are bettter than most give them credit for.

 

Anyone else have opinions??

 

I haven't chimed in too often in the debates regarding the competence of Baker and Hendry. But I think it's a natural reaction for folks to look at the people in charge when they look at the problems this ballclub has.

[rawaction]

 

Raw, I've never heard of Dusty as a disciplinarian. Certainly a player's manager and a motivator, but never a disiplinarian.

 

Yeah. I stand corrected.

[PackLandVA]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

 

Yep, sure can. But not when he's coaching the team with the highest payroll in the league (including Sosa's money). And you're kidding yourself if you think this is the 1 bad year. Last Sept was absolutely dispicable. Dusty clearly lost control of his team. The Cubs have been in the top 3 in payroll in the NL for all his 3 years, and they got 1 playoff berth, with a mediocre 88 wins. Regardless of the wins/losses, Dusty has lost complete control. The team was fighting with their own broadcasters, leaving early, quit on him. This year, the team has had several spans of horrible baseball. Point is, he hasn't done what he was brought in here to do. He wasn't a good fit then, he's not a good fit now.

 

 

Using this line of thinking, I suppose Joe Torre should have been fired already. A payroll far and above every other team in baseball, a roster full of All-Stars, the ability to land just about any player in the offseason and during the regular season, the "Choke of All Ages" last year against their chief rival and amazingly inconsistent play for the better part of this season.

[Cubfanintheknow]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

 

Yep, sure can. But not when he's coaching the team with the highest payroll in the league (including Sosa's money). And you're kidding yourself if you think this is the 1 bad year. Last Sept was absolutely dispicable. Dusty clearly lost control of his team. The Cubs have been in the top 3 in payroll in the NL for all his 3 years, and they got 1 playoff berth, with a mediocre 88 wins. Regardless of the wins/losses, Dusty has lost complete control. The team was fighting with their own broadcasters, leaving early, quit on him. This year, the team has had several spans of horrible baseball. Point is, he hasn't done what he was brought in here to do. He wasn't a good fit then, he's not a good fit now.

 

 

Using this line of thinking, I suppose Joe Torre should have been fired already. A payroll far and above every other team in baseball, a roster full of All-Stars, the ability to land just about any player in the offseason and during the regular season, the "Choke of All Ages" last year against their chief rival and amazingly inconsistent play for the better part of this season.

 

Joe Torre has a handful of World Series rings. He gets a mulligan.

[UK1679666180]

It's more likely that Torre will get canned before Baker. Personally, both have done poor enough of a job to merit being canned.

[PackLandVA]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

 

Yep, sure can. But not when he's coaching the team with the highest payroll in the league (including Sosa's money). And you're kidding yourself if you think this is the 1 bad year. Last Sept was absolutely dispicable. Dusty clearly lost control of his team. The Cubs have been in the top 3 in payroll in the NL for all his 3 years, and they got 1 playoff berth, with a mediocre 88 wins. Regardless of the wins/losses, Dusty has lost complete control. The team was fighting with their own broadcasters, leaving early, quit on him. This year, the team has had several spans of horrible baseball. Point is, he hasn't done what he was brought in here to do. He wasn't a good fit then, he's not a good fit now.

 

 

Using this line of thinking, I suppose Joe Torre should have been fired already. A payroll far and above every other team in baseball, a roster full of All-Stars, the ability to land just about any player in the offseason and during the regular season, the "Choke of All Ages" last year against their chief rival and amazingly inconsistent play for the better part of this season.

 

Joe Torre has a handful of World Series rings. He gets a mulligan.

 

Right...2001. What about 2002, 2003 and 2004?

[SirPlopigus]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

 

Yep, sure can. But not when he's coaching the team with the highest payroll in the league (including Sosa's money). And you're kidding yourself if you think this is the 1 bad year. Last Sept was absolutely dispicable. Dusty clearly lost control of his team. The Cubs have been in the top 3 in payroll in the NL for all his 3 years, and they got 1 playoff berth, with a mediocre 88 wins. Regardless of the wins/losses, Dusty has lost complete control. The team was fighting with their own broadcasters, leaving early, quit on him. This year, the team has had several spans of horrible baseball. Point is, he hasn't done what he was brought in here to do. He wasn't a good fit then, he's not a good fit now.

 

 

Using this line of thinking, I suppose Joe Torre should have been fired already. A payroll far and above every other team in baseball, a roster full of All-Stars, the ability to land just about any player in the offseason and during the regular season, the "Choke of All Ages" last year against their chief rival and amazingly inconsistent play for the better part of this season.

 

Joe Torre has a handful of World Series rings. He gets a mulligan.

 

Right...2001. What about 2002, 2003 and 2004?

It's a shame players don't get blamed enough for losing games

[Cubfanintheknow]

I think it's kinda funny fans want him fired after he just brought them back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in over 30 years. Can't a guy have one bad year?

 

Yep, sure can. But not when he's coaching the team with the highest payroll in the league (including Sosa's money). And you're kidding yourself if you think this is the 1 bad year. Last Sept was absolutely dispicable. Dusty clearly lost control of his team. The Cubs have been in the top 3 in payroll in the NL for all his 3 years, and they got 1 playoff berth, with a mediocre 88 wins. Regardless of the wins/losses, Dusty has lost complete control. The team was fighting with their own broadcasters, leaving early, quit on him. This year, the team has had several spans of horrible baseball. Point is, he hasn't done what he was brought in here to do. He wasn't a good fit then, he's not a good fit now.

 

 

Using this line of thinking, I suppose Joe Torre should have been fired already. A payroll far and above every other team in baseball, a roster full of All-Stars, the ability to land just about any player in the offseason and during the regular season, the "Choke of All Ages" last year against their chief rival and amazingly inconsistent play for the better part of this season.

 

Joe Torre has a handful of World Series rings. He gets a mulligan.

 

Right...2001. What about 2002, 2003 and 2004?

It's a shame players don't get blamed enough for losing games

 

You got it! Torre definitely put his players in a position to succeed each of the last three seasons. The players just didn't get it done. And nowhere was that more evident than last year's ALCS.