Cubs prospect/player you wanted to make it so bad but didn't

[CubUgly]

22 hours ago, CubinNY said:

We are sort of in a bit of a lull until Spring Training starts, and arguing gets tiresome, so let's all share the hopes that were dashed over the years for Cubs prospects. I'm going to give my top 3.  You don't have to limit it to prospects who got a cup of coffee in MLB.

#1- Matt Murton- He came with Nomar in the great Hendry trade that didn't work (but one of the best NSBB threads ever). I still believe he never got a full shot with the Cubs. He was a line-drive hitter with good patience and little power, who could only play LF. Anyway, he went on to have a great career in Japan.

#2- Chris Morel - What a wonderful story, and apparently a great kid. He couldn't play defense and couldn't hit enough to stick as a DH. Now he's in Japan.

#3- Arismendy Alcántara - I was hoping for this kid hard. He had all the physical tools, but couldn't put them together. 

I'm sure there are others, but those three really stand out to me. 

Maples 

[Geographyhater8888]

Josh Donaldson for me. He didn’t have a single hit at the big league level for the Cubs.

Edited January 22 by Geographyhater8888

[Sammy Sofa]

15 hours ago, jersey cubs fan said:

Prior made it and had way more than a cup of coffee. He was abused 

Yeah, Prior being lumped in with a bunch of prospects that basically amounted to nothing in the bigs just feels wrong.

Like, Prior actually showed up an performed and was the real deal...he just couldn't stay healthy due to a series of freak injuries and overwork. He's waaaaaaaaaaaay closer to being a Kris Bryant Story than the busts being listed off here.

And the whole "Prior fell apart because he stopped using steroids" thing is so dumb. It all stems from him having big calves.

[Derwood]

This thread is the exact reason why I don't lose a minute of sleep over the idea of trading prospects for proven players

[squally1313]

36 minutes ago, Derwood said:

This thread is the exact reason why I don't lose a minute of sleep over the idea of trading prospects for proven players

I suppose we could start a thread about Josh Donaldson, Dylan Cease, Dontrelle Willis, Gleyber Torres, etc. But that's me playing devils advocate and I largely agree with you. Go trade Shaw for Skubal. 

[Derwood]

1 hour ago, squally1313 said:

I suppose we could start a thread about Josh Donaldson, Dylan Cease, Dontrelle Willis, Gleyber Torres, etc. But that's me playing devils advocate and I largely agree with you. Go trade Shaw for Skubal. 

Donaldson turned into Rich Harden

Willis turned into Antonio Alfonseca and Matt Clement

Torres turned into Chapman

Cease hurt because Quintana was the definition of "meh"

[cl smooth]

2 hours ago, Sammy Sofa said:

Yeah, Prior being lumped in with a bunch of prospects that basically amounted to nothing in the bigs just feels wrong.

Like, Prior actually showed up an performed and was the real deal...he just couldn't stay healthy due to a series of freak injuries and overwork. He's waaaaaaaaaaaay closer to being a Kris Bryant Story than the busts being listed off here.

And the whole "Prior fell apart because he stopped using steroids" thing is so dumb. It all stems from him having big calves.

might get some horsefeathers for this but i've always thought that prior's 2003 season was more impressive than arrieta's 2015 run. i'm removing the cy young award and their bwar/fwar from the equation here because they obviously lean towards arrieta and going just on vibes and what i remember. 

whenever i watched prior pitch, it was like HOLY horsefeathers THE CUBS HAVE A horsefeathers POWER PITCHER AND HE IS THAT GUY.

there was a game against milwaukee where prior struck out 16 and walked no one and the cubs horsefeathers the bed...it was one of those "this guy is the real horsefeathers deal" moments. 

with jake, i was always weary that the wheels were going to come off at any given moment even though he was damn near unhittable. i know it absolutely makes no sense but prior was an actual ace and jake got his horsefeathers together with an organization that didn't neuter his skill set. 

[Rcal10]

3 minutes ago, cl smooth said:

might get some horsefeathers for this but i've always thought that prior's 2003 season was more impressive than arrieta's 2015 run. i'm removing the cy young award and their bwar/fwar from the equation here because they obviously lean towards arrieta and going just on vibes and what i remember. 

whenever i watched prior pitch, it was like HOLY horsefeathers THE CUBS HAVE A horsefeathers POWER PITCHER AND HE IS THAT GUY.

there was a game against milwaukee where prior struck out 16 and walked no one and the cubs horsefeathers the bed...it was one of those "this guy is the real horsefeathers deal" moments. 

with jake, i was always weary that the wheels were going to come off at any given moment even though he was damn near unhittable. i know it absolutely makes no sense but prior was an actual ace and jake got his horsefeathers together with an organization that didn't neuter his skill set. 

I do understand the reasoning why you say this. Prior was a Cub prospect who was supposed to do exactly what he was doing. So there was a comfort level there. Jake came out of nowhere, so being unsure made sense. But the end result is Jake’s year was far superior to Prior’s, even though we all did watch expecting the wheels to fall off at any time. 

[squally1313]

23 minutes ago, cl smooth said:

might get some horsefeathers for this but i've always thought that prior's 2003 season was more impressive than arrieta's 2015 run. i'm removing the cy young award and their bwar/fwar from the equation here because they obviously lean towards arrieta and going just on vibes and what i remember. 

whenever i watched prior pitch, it was like HOLY horsefeathers THE CUBS HAVE A horsefeathers POWER PITCHER AND HE IS THAT GUY.

there was a game against milwaukee where prior struck out 16 and walked no one and the cubs horsefeathers the bed...it was one of those "this guy is the real horsefeathers deal" moments. 

with jake, i was always weary that the wheels were going to come off at any given moment even though he was damn near unhittable. i know it absolutely makes no sense but prior was an actual ace and jake got his horsefeathers together with an organization that didn't neuter his skill set. 

I get it. 

A. We were all 12 years younger and probably more starry eyed

B. Prior had a higher K/9 rate (10.4 v 9.2), and league wide the 2003 rate (6.4) was more than a strikeout less than the 2015 rate (7.7), so the frequency would have stood out even more. 

C. As you mentioned, Arrieta always had the feel of like, man, he's on a historic hot streak but the wheels have to come off at some point here right. Prior was the present and the future. 

[Hot Sauce]

5 hours ago, Bull said:

This is silly. Sure, everyone was using peds, but Dusty Baker send him out to pitch the 8th inning with 108 pitches, up 8-1. Dusty killed Prior and Wood.

Not disputing Baker's use of his pitchers, but 108 pitches then wasn't unusual. TORP guys routinely threw 100-120 pitches per start. 

[mul21]

6 minutes ago, Hot Sauce said:

Not disputing Baker's use of his pitchers, but 108 pitches then wasn't unusual. TORP guys routinely threw 100-120 pitches per start. 

Sure, but when you send a guy that young out there who's already at that number in a game when you have a sizable lead and we already knew at that point 100 pitches was a decent barometer of use/overuse, it's malpractice.

[We Got The Whole 9]

3 minutes ago, Hot Sauce said:

Not disputing Baker's use of his pitchers, but 108 pitches then wasn't unusual. TORP guys routinely threw 100-120 pitches per start. 

Yes, they did. And some pitchers could take it and some couldn't. Pens were built and prioritized completely differently. The Cubs had like 3 relievers you would maybe be sort of comfortable getting the ball to. Looking back, who would you rather pitch the 7th, Prior or Guthrie, Mulholland, Alfonseca? So you needed 7 from your starters, or 6 at least. Interesting how Zambrano didnt break. He pitched more innings than all of them. And went on to be the most durable pitcher in the majors for half a decade after.

 

For anyone to suggest Baker ruined Wood is a joke. Wood blew out his arm at 20 and was on the DL more than he was available. You needed to ride him when he was on because he was one pitch from it all coming to an end damn near every year he was a starter.

 

Prior was destined to break and his demise was hastened by 2 brutal fluke injuries. Dusty did what every damn manager did back then. He did the same thing to Russ Ortiz and he never broke. Its all a false narrative IMO. 

[Thusly Boned]

5 minutes ago, Hot Sauce said:

Not disputing Baker's use of his pitchers, but 108 pitches then wasn't unusual. TORP guys routinely threw 100-120 pitches per start. 

It was just an egregious example of unnecessarily riding his pitchers. If you look a Prior's pitch counts for the whole season, especially down the stretch, it was brutal, even for the time. It looks even worse in context.

And sending one of your prize pitchers out for the late innings with 100+ pitches and a seven-run lead was not routine.

[Thusly Boned]

3 minutes ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

Yes, they did. And some pitchers could take it and some couldn't. Pens were built and prioritized completely differently. The Cubs had like 3 relievers you would maybe be sort of comfortable getting the ball to. Looking back, who would you rather pitch the 7th, Prior or Guthrie, Mulholland, Alfonseca? So you needed 7 from your starters, or 6 at least. Interesting how Zambrano didnt break. He pitched more innings than all of them. And went on to be the most durable pitcher in the majors for half a decade after.

 

For anyone to suggest Baker ruined Wood is a joke. Wood blew out his arm at 20 and was on the DL more than he was available. You needed to ride him when he was on because he was one pitch from it all coming to an end damn near every year he was a starter.

 

Prior was destined to break and his demise was hastened by 2 brutal fluke injuries. Dusty did what every damn manager did back then. He did the same thing to Russ Ortiz and he never broke. Its all a false narrative IMO. 

It isn't quite as clear as some say (and agree you can't really blame Dusty for Wood, but his injury history should have been a reason to go easier on him), but Dusty was the worst about riding SP, even in context.

In 2003, Cubs starters led the majors in pitches per start, for example, and his teams were routinely at or near the top in this area.

[Sammy Sofa]

45 minutes ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

Prior was destined to break

[We Got The Whole 9]

Sorry Dusty, should have leaned on Remlinger and Guthrie more. Had a lockdown pen, no need to overuse your oxen.

Edited January 22 by We Got The Whole 9

[Bull]

1 hour ago, Hot Sauce said:

Not disputing Baker's use of his pitchers, but 108 pitches then wasn't unusual. TORP guys routinely threw 100-120 pitches per start. 

It's not just the Cubs. His Giant's pitchers were exhausted in the playoffs. He tommy john'd Bailey. Cueto regularly pitched 8-9 innings in '12 and Dusty was dumbfounded that he was injured in the playoffs. And the Reds finished 9 games up on the Cardinals that year. No excuse.

He was stupid and he killed my two favorite pitchers. 

[cl smooth]

1 hour ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

Yes, they did. And some pitchers could take it and some couldn't. Pens were built and prioritized completely differently. The Cubs had like 3 relievers you would maybe be sort of comfortable getting the ball to. Looking back, who would you rather pitch the 7th, Prior or Guthrie, Mulholland, Alfonseca? So you needed 7 from your starters, or 6 at least. Interesting how Zambrano didnt break. He pitched more innings than all of them. And went on to be the most durable pitcher in the majors for half a decade after.

 

For anyone to suggest Baker ruined Wood is a joke. Wood blew out his arm at 20 and was on the DL more than he was available. You needed to ride him when he was on because he was one pitch from it all coming to an end damn near every year he was a starter.

 

Prior was destined to break and his demise was hastened by 2 brutal fluke injuries. Dusty did what every damn manager did back then. He did the same thing to Russ Ortiz and he never broke. Its all a false narrative IMO. 

The same Russ Ortiz who put up…*checks notes*…0.0 bwar from 2003 to 2010 after leaving the giants in 2002?

[Bull]

5 minutes ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

Sorry Dusty, should have leaned on Remlinger and Guthrie more. Had a lockdown pen, no need to overuse your oxen.

With an 8 run lead? Yes, absolutely. There weren't many opportunities to rest his "horses" as he called them that year. Unfortunately, Dusty wasn't looking for opportunities to rest them, he was looking for opportunities to ride them. Like a salmon rides the current. 

[squally1313]

1 hour ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

Interesting how Zambrano didnt break. He pitched more innings than all of them. And went on to be the most durable pitcher in the majors for half a decade after.

Zambrano under Dusty Baker, four years, ages 22-25: 129 games started, 861 innings, 17.4 fWAR.

Zambrano after Dusty Baker, six years, ages 26-31: 156 games started, 982 innings, 12.6 fWAR. Out of major league baseball at 31. 

He was 42nd in total innings for the 'half a decade' after Baker. But I guess because it took Dusty four years to do it as opposed to just a year, it's fine. 

[We Got The Whole 9]

13 minutes ago, cl smooth said:

The same Russ Ortiz who put up…*checks notes*…0.0 bwar from 2003 to 2010 after leaving the giants in 2002?

The same one who threw 420 innings over 2 years after leaving the Giants, including a 3 win season. Totally broken. Meanwhile Zambrano, younger than Mark Prior, went on to throw 1100 innings over the next 5 years after 2003. Why didnt he break? Why did Strasburg break after being put in bubble wrap for multiple seasons? Its just the luck of the draw. Some pitchers bodies can handle it and some cant. Period.

[We Got The Whole 9]

2 minutes ago, squally1313 said:

Zambrano under Dusty Baker, four years, ages 22-25: 129 games started, 861 innings, 17.4 fWAR.

Zambrano after Dusty Baker, six years, ages 26-31: 156 games started, 982 innings, 12.6 fWAR. Out of major league baseball at 31. 

He was 42nd in total innings for the 'half a decade' after Baker. But I guess because it took Dusty four years to do it as opposed to just a year, it's fine. 

Yeah this has never happened to any other pitcher ever

[Sammy Sofa]

Their management of Prior after the Giles collision was reckless and stupid, period.

[Sammy Sofa]

"Other pitchers exist, ergo we will grind our future into the dirt."

[mul21]

9 minutes ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

The same one who threw 420 innings over 2 years after leaving the Giants, including a 3 win season. Totally broken. Meanwhile Zambrano, younger than Mark Prior, went on to throw 1100 innings over the next 5 years after 2003. Why didnt he break? Why did Strasburg break after being put in bubble wrap for multiple seasons? Its just the luck of the draw. Some pitchers bodies can handle it and some cant. Period.

I ramped up my running from 2008-2011 and went from a 3:52 marathon to a 3:16 marathon.  I ran a couple more after that in 2012 and 2013 in around 3:25 but then I had to stop running because I wrecked my body so bad that my hip and back couldn't take that level of pounding anymore.  I'm sharing this for no particular reason at all.