Grading Craig Counsell

[Xuperman]

2 minutes ago, Gjfificifjdej said:

Idk man the manager can’t make guys ground into fewer double plays, he can’t stop Tucker pounding ground balls to first base, can’t make Shota stop giving up dingers like its his job, can’t do much with the bullpen in every reliever is getting shelled. 

With that logic....how can any organization justify the 8 Million?

[Bertz]

10 minutes ago, Xuperman said:

I will throw in. Run WAY more with 1st and 3rd with less than 2 outs.

I actually like this one.  Sam Miller did an amazing article on this last year

https://pebblehunting.substack.com/p/first-and-third-at-the-highest-level

tl;dr is a lot of teams won't even throw through because they're worried about the steal of home.  It's damn near an automatic base.

[Xuperman]

6 minutes ago, Derwood said:

Your ideas sound like a great way to create unnecessary outs

Not with PCA speed...or even Hoerner/Shaw speed. We have it, but it is not being used effectively. IMO.

[Bertz]

2 minutes ago, Xuperman said:

Not with PCA speed...or even Hoerner/Shaw speed. We have it, but it is not being used effectively. IMO.

The Cubs are 3rd in the league in steals and among teams in the top 10 have the second best success rate.  They are a very good and high volume baserunning team.

[Gjfificifjdej]

6 minutes ago, Xuperman said:

With that logic....how can any organization justify the 8 Million?

I get that the owners are generally cheapskates but there should not be any consideration given to coach/manager salary if you are a serious Big 4 league franchise. Theres no cap/luxury tax, if you print money like the Cubs do, take advantage of that. 

[Xuperman]

17 minutes ago, Bertz said:

I actually like this one.  Sam Miller did an amazing article on this last year

https://pebblehunting.substack.com/p/first-and-third-at-the-highest-level

tl;dr is a lot of teams won't even throw through because they're worried about the steal of home.  It's damn near an automatic base.

This is the point.

Counsell has refused multiple times she this opportunity presented itself.

[Bertz]

2 minutes ago, Xuperman said:

This is the point.

Counsell has refused multiple times she this opportunity presented itself.

How many times?  

[Xuperman]

16 minutes ago, Bertz said:

How many times?  

5-6 or more.

[squally1313]

3 minutes ago, Xuperman said:

5-6 or more.

When

[Backtobanks]

2 hours ago, javy knows my name said:

Lol you can't have it both ways

My point is that the manager has very little effect on a team.

[Backtobanks]

2 hours ago, Xuperman said:

Are you suggesting that 8 MILLION per, does not have an expectative return? If that is the case....why pay any manager such a ridiculous contract?

In sports, you pay for the name and hope for expected return.

[Xuperman]

29 minutes ago, squally1313 said:

When

Yesterday's debacle is one. Are you asking for more specific games?

[Bertz]

3 minutes ago, Xuperman said:

Yesterday's debacle is one. Are you asking for more specific games?

Feels like this is a good example.  The Cubs had 1st and 3rd with none out, and the rest of the inning played out in a way where the runner at 1st wouldn't have scored even if he'd been at 2nd.

So by your count there've been about a half dozen of these, how many would have resulted in an extra run?  One or two?

It feels like for someone who really doesn't like the manager you're picking some fairly small nits to criticize.

[JunkyardWalrus]

Just throwing out his old team has won the division every year since he left. 

[Xuperman]

4 hours ago, Bertz said:

Feels like this is a good example.  The Cubs had 1st and 3rd with none out, and the rest of the inning played out in a way where the runner at 1st wouldn't have scored even if he'd been at 2nd.

So by your count there've been about a half dozen of these, how many would have resulted in an extra run?  One or two?

It feels like for someone who really doesn't like the manager you're picking some fairly small nits to criticize.

Sometimes people disagree. No, I do not like CC. I certainly didn't like him there...and don't like him now. The contract $$ was a unforced error by ownership...and I think that will eventually be a popular opinion amongst us older bleached bums. 

Doesn't the constant "smacking of the lips" in interviews...rake like nails on a chalkboard?

[Stratos]

13 hours ago, CubinNY said:

I’ve totally gone Kyle on managers. I’d lump him in with the vast majority of them. They’re mostly interchangeable outside of Francona.

In this data-driven age it's probably more true now than in decades past.  If you mostly just follow the data then most would behave pretty similarly.

No manager is perfect..  I think he's a good, competent manager and a smart dude.  I think he probably rides his good players a bit too hard at times, whether hitters or pitchers, but that line is a matter of debate.  Would be nice to see more urgency and passion from him at times.  Also lacks deep postseason managerial experience, which probably isn't his fault.  Can't really complain about much else.

Worth being one of the higher paid managers, but probably was overpaid and given more credit for what was happening in Milwaukee under his run than he deserved.

[Soul]

1 hour ago, Stratos said:

In this data-driven age it's probably more true now than in decades past.  If you mostly just follow the data then most would behave pretty similarly.

No manager is perfect..  I think he's a good, competent manager and a smart dude.  I think he probably rides his good players a bit too hard at times, whether hitters or pitchers, but that line is a matter of debate.  Would be nice to see more urgency and passion from him at times.  Also lacks deep postseason managerial experience, which probably isn't his fault.  Can't really complain about much else.

Worth being one of the higher paid managers, but probably was overpaid and given more credit for what was happening in Milwaukee under his run than he deserved.

/thread

 

(IMO of course)

 

 

[Hot Sauce]

There was an episode of The Wonder Years where a new teacher didn't use the traditional grading system but instead gave a "P" for pass or a "NP" for no pass. I give Craig Counsell a "P" for his Cubs tenure thus far.

[I owned a Suzuki]

1. What Counsell makes is moot. His salary does not count against the luxury tax, which seems to be the Cubs self imposed spending limit

2. Ultimately I think he was hired because the Cubs owner and front office view player development as crucial to overall team success. Overall, as frustrated as I get about Caissie and Ballesteros coming up and sitting the bench, he has worked well with developing others. Both from our system and getting value from other system rejects.

3. We were projected as a mid 80 win team. Best pitcher out for season after 2 starts and will finish with 90+ wins. Also, had a trash bench for 1st 110 games. 

I'll give him a B

 

[CubUgly]

On 9/14/2025 at 4:17 AM, Xuperman said:

Didn't see a thread specific to this question. Considering the unusual circumstance and the price tag...just wondering how y'all grade our skipper.

Personally, I am in no way impressed and grading him a C+ is somewhat generous. I have found myself in "head scratching" mode far too often since the all star break. Plus, for some reason, I find him very irritating in media interviews. Very dull.

I'll say this....it looks like we'll probably win 91-93 games - somewhere in that neighborhood.  If you'd given me that before the season started I'd have taken it....even with Steele.  I'll always have certain issues and disagreements with our manager over 162 games, that's perfectly reasonable for any rational fan.

But I do think he was more involved in the personnel decisions, and all other decisions after kind of getting the lay of the land last year.  And I think he's handled the bullpen very well.  I'd give him a B+ at worst. 

[We Got The Whole 9]

23 hours ago, Bertz said:

I actually like this one.  Sam Miller did an amazing article on this last year

https://pebblehunting.substack.com/p/first-and-third-at-the-highest-level

tl;dr is a lot of teams won't even throw through because they're worried about the steal of home.  It's damn near an automatic base.

Id like to see what would happen if the catcher took some off and threw it to the pitcher instead. Would the runner be able to adjust accordingly? 

[chibears55]

He'll likely end up no worse than 3rd in Manager of year this season 

[Gjfificifjdej]

Literally everyone pre season was like “hey the Cubs could win 90 if they get lucky and like 4 different players outperform expectations”, and they will likely hit 90 wins and have clinched a playoff berth already despite losing their #1 starter in April, the superstar trade acquisition being either useless or injured for 3-4 months, the bullpen being a complete disaster for the first month, and the #2 starter turning into a home run derby pitcher after the trade deadline. The projected ceiling for success has already been achieved, despite all of that bad happening. I think Counsell has been fine lol.  

[Rcal10]

34 minutes ago, Gjfificifjdej said:

Literally everyone pre season was like “hey the Cubs could win 90 if they get lucky and like 4 different players outperform expectations”, and they will likely hit 90 wins and have clinched a playoff berth already despite losing their #1 starter in April, the superstar trade acquisition being either useless or injured for 3-4 months, the bullpen being a complete disaster for the first month, and the #2 starter turning into a home run derby pitcher after the trade deadline. The projected ceiling for success has already been achieved, despite all of that bad happening. I think Counsell has been fine lol.  

Agreed. He is a fine manager. I never feel the guy in the other side of the diamond is better than him and/or it is just a matter of time before he screws up. I don’t always agree with everything he does, but that would be the case with whoever the manager is. And it doesn’t mean he was wrong if I disagreed with him. 

[Xuperman]

That extended "test drive" with Soroka was a perfect example of why CC should be held accountable...that was unacceptable. 3 in San Diego is closer to reality because of it.