Cubs offseason chit chat...

[We Got The Whole 9]

1 hour ago, Soul said:

Why did they make the Counsel move?  Because they think he can get passable results while they skimp off on salaries for players?  Why would Counsel agree to such a thing?

I must admit to being confused by how the offseason started and how it ended up.

Because they believe that they had a playoff spot last year if they had Counsell. They believe the team was better than their record. They believe Counsell will be amenable to breaking rookies in and more instrumental in player development. 

[Bertz]

I'm very understanding of market forces, not making moves just to make moves, etc.  But if Jed just adds a bit of pitching depth and then we roll into the year that's a wildy unacceptable offseason.  Like I'm not going to try to put lipstick on that pig.

That said, like Squally said Jed can't go "we've got another $35M burning a hole in our pockets!", particularly given that most of the guys you'd reasonably spend money on all have the same agent.  More or less all of this waiting around doesn't matter, it's frustrating for fans but does nothing in the W/L column.  So I'm not really in the business of assigning grades until inventory runs out or it's pencils down time and the season is about to start.

[Rcal10]

28 minutes ago, Bertz said:

I'm very understanding of market forces, not making moves just to make moves, etc.  But if Jed just adds a bit of pitching depth and then we roll into the year that's a wildy unacceptable offseason.  Like I'm not going to try to put lipstick on that pig.

That said, like Squally said Jed can't go "we've got another $35M burning a hole in our pockets!", particularly given that most of the guys you'd reasonably spend money on all have the same agent.  More or less all of this waiting around doesn't matter, it's frustrating for fans but does nothing in the W/L column.  So I'm not really in the business of assigning grades until inventory runs out or it's pencils down time and the season is about to start.

I agree. I wouldn’t expect Jed to say anything different at this point. I do expect another move or two or this was a very poor off season. But there is time and guys are still there. I am starting to lean in favor of Chapman for at most, 4 years, over Bellinger. Maybe they should leave centerfield open for PCA at some point in 24’. 

[Backtobanks]

5 hours ago, squally1313 said:

Why don't the prospects you're referring to seem to fit in the plans for the future?

PCA is months, not years away. You sign Bellinger to an 8 year deal, or even a 4 year deal, you have Happ and Suzuki locked in through 2026, where in your standards does PCA get a sufficient opportunity to develop into a 'solid ML contributor'? If he's an unknown now, he's just going to stay an unknown. If Bellinger is a hedge against PCA not turning into a valuable MLB player, sure, fine. But if that's the case, then you trade PCA now, as a top 20 prospect, because the small increased value you'd get from him destroying AAA for a few months isn't at all worth the downside of him struggling.  

First, not all of our prospects are going to make it to the ML.  If the prospects make it and look like solid ML players, then you can trade veterans or prospects to make the team better.  I didn't mention signing Bellinger (though I still like the idea), if they can settle the money/years issue because of his ability and versatility.  There are players out there that can help the current team.  All I want is to build a team that can and will win their division this year and hopefully will be able to repeat next year.  Whoever is the CF (or 3B, 1B, etc.) on our winning team doesn't matter to me.

[Backtobanks]

5 hours ago, CubinNY said:

the sarcasm in post was clearly too understated. 

But seriously, I think they believe that they are approximately the 2014/15 Cubs version of a team and are not going to make commitments they think will harm the future. We can agree or disagree with the strategy. I think they are not close to a really good team unless a few of PCA, Horton, Wicks, Shaw, Caissie, Alcantara, Ferris, Busch turn out to be the best version of their prospect status. 

 

Another strategy to being a really good team is if Jed was willing to trade a few of those prospects for really good players instead of waiting and hoping that they reach the best version of their prospect status. The difference is that we might see the results sooner as opposed to later.

[LBiittner]

3 hours ago, Stratos said:

Closer warming up?  They're down a few runs and need a hell of a 9th to get the walk off.

Closer warming up?

Jed, that was one helluva long 7th inning stretch.

Closer warming up?

Perhaps Jed believes Closer by committee means multiple deals coming soon? 

[chopsx9]

2 hours ago, Sammy Sofa said:

A record-setting amount? Probably not.

He was linked to the Mets among other teams if it wasn't record setting it was going to be near enough to not make a difference.

[Michael Busch Light]

Are there even rumors with any of these guys anymore?  Is MLB just moving on?  No chatter whatsoever 

[Rcal10]

9 minutes ago, Michael Busch Light said:

Are there even rumors with any of these guys anymore?  Is MLB just moving on?  No chatter whatsoever 

It is kind of ridiculous, if you ask me. How can an agent hold these players with figures teams are not going to go to? I mean, when does the agent and the player decide they need to lower their expectations and start trying to find a home? Can all 30 teams be wrong about what a guy is worth, or might the guy and the agent be wrong? 

[Jason Ross]

Just now, Rcal10 said:

It is kind of ridiculous, if you ask me. How can an agent hold these players with figures teams are not going to go to? I mean, when does the agent and the player decide they need to lower their expectations and start trying to find a home? Can all 30 teams be wrong about what a guy is worth, or might the guy and the agent be wrong? 

For the pitchers, we're probably getting close to a point where they have to kind of accept an offer or not. Figure Snell and Montgomery need actual time in a camp to stretch out, and teams aren't going to be jazzed about having them join the MLB roster in May. The hitters are probably a few weeks out still. 3-4 weeks for these guys are probably enough. So I'd guess Bellinger or Chapman could go into the first week of March.

[SOFNR]

13 minutes ago, 1908_Cubs said:

For the pitchers, we're probably getting close to a point where they have to kind of accept an offer or not. Figure Snell and Montgomery need actual time in a camp to stretch out, and teams aren't going to be jazzed about having them join the MLB roster in May. The hitters are probably a few weeks out still. 3-4 weeks for these guys are probably enough. So I'd guess Bellinger or Chapman could go into the first week of March.

You'd think so but all of these guys are probably looking at it least 4 years contracts. Boras might be willing to ignore the first month of the season and atleast take some of these deep into spring training, hoping an injury causes some desperation. If you play well some early missed time won't matter much in end, but it's still gotta make it sort of uncomfortable for the players. You gotta wonder if any of the 4 get tired of it eventually and just ask to collect highest offers and get moving.  Waiting on desperation and potential injuries seems like a tougher strategy when you got that many top guys you need to offload. I hope this is the year Boras finally loses, even if I hate seeing the owners win. If those demands start to cave it likely ends well for the Cubs.

[Sammy Sofa]

3 hours ago, chopsx9 said:

He was linked to the Mets among other teams if it wasn't record setting it was going to be near enough to not make a difference.

Big, big disagree: he's getting $8 million a year. No other manager was getting more than $4.5 when he signed. They threw obviously stupid (manager) money at him to snap him up.

Like, it feels like we don't need to guess about anything here: big money for a manager is peanuts compared to big money for a player, and the Cubs clearly want to continue getting more out of spending less and less, so they made their one big splash signing for a manager with a rep of getting results in a market the Ricketts sweat themselves to sleep over wishing they could go that cheap.

 

Edited February 15, 2024 by Sammy Sofa

[Rcal10]

59 minutes ago, SOFNR said:

You'd think so but all of these guys are probably looking at it least 4 years contracts. Boras might be willing to ignore the first month of the season and atleast take some of these deep into spring training, hoping an injury causes some desperation. If you play well some early missed time won't matter much in end, but it's still gotta make it sort of uncomfortable for the players. You gotta wonder if any of the 4 get tired of it eventually and just ask to collect highest offers and get moving.  Waiting on desperation and potential injuries seems like a tougher strategy when you got that many top guys you need to offload. I hope this is the year Boras finally loses, even if I hate seeing the owners win. If those demands start to cave it likely ends well for the Cubs.

I don’t really view it as the owners winning if these guys have to come down in their demands. Fact is, maybe the players are being unreasonable. I generally side with the players, but if all 30 teams aren’t even discussing these guys at the terms Boras is supposedly asking, maybe the players are asking too much. 

[Irrelevant Dude]

1 hour ago, SOFNR said:

Boras might be willing to ignore the first month of the season and atleast take some of these deep into spring training, hoping an injury causes some desperation.

Honestly, I think every team is smarter than that now.  The chances of a President/GM making an unwise long term deal because of a short term injury are slim to none.  All it takes is one I guess, but I just don't see a team jumping up and meeting Boras' demands if they haven't been willing to do that up until this point.

We can all accept that owners make too much money and they aren't exactly the "good guy" here, but there comes a point where the seller has to adjust to market demand.  If you are a realtor with multiple nice houses sitting on the market with very little interest, there is only so long you can hold out before dropping the prices.

In the end, maybe everyone will end up getting close to what they wanted, but that is looking less and less likely the longer this drags on.

[Rob]

8 hours ago, Irrelevant Dude said:

Honestly, I think every team is smarter than that now.  The chances of a President/GM making an unwise long term deal because of a short term injury are slim to none. 

That's been the case for a long, long time.

Boras doesn't make his money by selling his players to the Presidents and GMs. Rather, he's famous for his end-runs around those guys to talk straight to the owners.

With a direct line to George Steinbrenner, did it really matter what Cashman said? Likewise, he called individually on Ilitch, Moreno, etc... Got all of them to sign some bad deals. It's just how he operates. You can be sure Boras is trying to approach the Ricketts individually and not really focusing directly on Jed.

[Rcal10]

19 minutes ago, Rob said:

That's been the case for a long, long time.

Boras doesn't make his money by selling his players to the Presidents and GMs. Rather, he's famous for his end-runs around those guys to talk straight to the owners.

With a direct line to George Steinbrenner, did it really matter what Cashman said? Likewise, he called individually on Ilitch, Moreno, etc... Got all of them to sign some bad deals. It's just how he operates. You can be sure Boras is trying to approach the Ricketts individually and not really focusing directly on Jed.

My guess is if he approaches the Ricketts he will hit the same wall he is hitting with Jed. They are the people who put the limits on Jed, IMO.

[CubinNY]

11 hours ago, Michael Busch Light said:

Are there even rumors with any of these guys anymore?  Is MLB just moving on?  No chatter whatsoever 

last I heard the only one who was offered a contract was Snell who turned it down without a counter. 

[CubinNY]

38 minutes ago, Rob said:

That's been the case for a long, long time.

Boras doesn't make his money by selling his players to the Presidents and GMs. Rather, he's famous for his end-runs around those guys to talk straight to the owners.

With a direct line to George Steinbrenner, did it really matter what Cashman said? Likewise, he called individually on Ilitch, Moreno, etc... Got all of them to sign some bad deals. It's just how he operates. You can be sure Boras is trying to approach the Ricketts individually and not really focusing directly on Jed.

that is so funny.

Scott: Hi this is Scott Boras, I'd like to speak to Mr. Ricketts please.

Condescending secretary: I"'m sorry Mr. Ricketts is in Rhodesia killing an endangered white rhino right now.

Scott: Do you have a number where he can be reached?

Condescending secretary: There are no phones. 

Scott: Do you know when he'll be back?

Condescending secretary: February 31st, 

Scott: Ok, than..... There is no February 31st

Condescending secretary: Exactly.

<click> 

[thawv]

10 hours ago, Sammy Sofa said:

Big, big disagree: he's getting $8 million a year. No other manager was getting more than $4.5 when he signed. They threw obviously stupid (manager) money at him to snap him up.

Like, it feels like we don't need to guess about anything here: big money for a manager is peanuts compared to big money for a player, and the Cubs clearly want to continue getting more out of spending less and less, so they made their one big splash signing for a manager with a rep of getting results in a market the Ricketts sweat themselves to sleep over wishing they could go that cheap.

 

When Jed phoned CC on Nov 1st, and met with him that same day, the Mets interview was just a formality.  It was always going to be the Cubs. 

[Andy]

17 hours ago, Rob said:

We gave this guy a record-setting contract so we wouldn't have to spend money!

In the defense of people basically saying this, the $8M Counsell is getting is a drop in the bucket compared to what it takes to sign an impact free agent.

[Bertz]

I've also brought up the Tigers and Nats as potential sleeper teams for the Boras guys, but probably scratch that that this point:

 

 

It's getting really hard to see who beyond the Cubs/Giants/Angels might have the stomach for a big signing

[Bull]

Big question in my mind. If Scott Boras had been Andre Dawson’s agent, would the universe have folded in on itself and disappeared?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I feel like the Tigers version of NSBB would be saying that Harris isn't gonna ruin leverage by saying 'yeah we're thinking about making a splash', and posting Jed's quotes from the other day about the Cubs being happy with what they have, so not sure how much to make of those.  Especially since part of the thinking with that type of move is ownership involvement potentially going over the GM's head(there's rumblings that this happened with Hoskins and may have pushed the Burnes trade).  

That said, Detroit and Washington are not popular destinations and there's plenty of reason for Washington in particular to not make a move like this right now, so any bit of status quo that doesn't portend greater interest is another step down the path to the known interested teams waiting on a Boras client.

[Rcal10]

6 minutes ago, Bertz said:

I've also brought up the Tigers and Nats as potential sleeper teams for the Boras guys, but probably scratch that that this point:

 

 

It's getting really hard to see who beyond the Cubs/Giants/Angels might have the stomach for a big signing

I agree. But the problem is Boras needs to realize this. He and his players need to realize there just are not many options left. When does a player walk into Boras’ office and tell him enough is enough, time to make a deal? 

[Backtobanks]

2 hours ago, Rcal10 said:

My guess is if he approaches the Ricketts he will hit the same wall he is hitting with Jed. They are the people who put the limits on Jed, IMO.

He needs to get out his MAGA hat and Trump 24 button to get Ticketts' attention.