Coco Crisp

[Little Slide Rooter]

Coco Crisp is somewhere from average to above average when healthy. I don't necessarily have a problem with acquiring him, but I have a hard time seeing exactly how he would fit into our plans. Of course, if we're moving Soriano/Byrd elsewhere for salary relief or prospects, he might make sense to replace them.

 

It is becoming abundantly clear, however, that the brass does not care for Brett Jackson's strikeout issues.

 

Nothing changes the fact that we simply don't need him unless there's already a worthwhile deal in place for Byrd or Soriano and even then if we don't get Cespedes. Especially if they don't plan on building a win now team I'm fully on board with guys like Stewart and Barton who were once top prospects but are still young enough that there's still hope for them. Even DeJesus would be a solid addition if they planned a win now but I can't see the benefit to Crisp in any situation.

[WilcoFan]

Coco Crisp is somewhere from average to above average when healthy. I don't necessarily have a problem with acquiring him, but I have a hard time seeing exactly how he would fit into our plans. Of course, if we're moving Soriano/Byrd elsewhere for salary relief or prospects, he might make sense to replace them.

 

It is becoming abundantly clear, however, that the brass does not care for Brett Jackson's strikeout issues.

 

 

Given the amount of rumors that get leaked for any number of purposes, I'd have a hard time believing anything's become abundantly clear. Some clarity will come by the end of the offseason, but I can't imagine anyone will get a real handle on things until that point.

[Guest]

Nothing changes the fact that we simply don't need him unless there's already a worthwhile deal in place for Byrd or Soriano and even then if we don't get Cespedes.

 

You know we didn't actually sign Crisp, right? And that the only report linking us to him is from MLBTR itself, not any actual news outlet?

 

 

I'm with Kyle, Crisp is a nice addition if Byrd and/or Jackson are no longer around, although it wouldn't be terrible if he fills Soriano's roster spot if he were dealt for prospects either. As an addition without losing a current OF, he doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[MSG T]

Coco Crisp is somewhere from average to above average when healthy. I don't necessarily have a problem with acquiring him, but I have a hard time seeing exactly how he would fit into our plans. Of course, if we're moving Soriano/Byrd elsewhere for salary relief or prospects, he might make sense to replace them.

 

It is becoming abundantly clear, however, that the brass does not care for Brett Jackson's strikeout issues.

 

 

Why would they care about his strikeout issues? He's pretty consistently had an ISOd of .100. His worst at any level was .078 in 15 PAs in rookie league ball where he still had an OBP of .533. I'm not saying his strikeout rates should be ignored, but his walk rate should also be considered. I realize it isn't a direct translation but his MiL BB/K ratio is almost identical to Aramis' ML BB/K ratio. As I've said in other threads, there are quite a few hitters in the Cubs system that I worry about when it comes to strikeouts, patience and pitch recognition and Jackson isn't one of them.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Nothing changes the fact that we simply don't need him unless there's already a worthwhile deal in place for Byrd or Soriano and even then if we don't get Cespedes.

 

You know we didn't actually sign Crisp, right? And that the only report linking us to him is from MLBTR itself, not any actual news outlet?

 

 

I'm with Kyle, Crisp is a nice addition if Byrd and/or Jackson are no longer around, although it wouldn't be terrible if he fills Soriano's roster spot if he were dealt for prospects either. As an addition without losing a current OF, he doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

DeJesus was a nice addition. Stewart was a nice additon. Barton could be a nice additon. Crisp might be a nice additon if we could move Soriano and/or Byrd. However, how good is our team going to be if we keep adding nice additons with no foundation? Guys like Crisp, Byrd, and DeJesus are good guys to sign to bat 6-7 if you already have a strong lineup but they arent going to make a bad team good or even average. I'm all about the low risk/high reward young players, and have no problem with DeJesus if he could give us Fukudome's production for less than half the price but we really shouldn't be filling the roster with these types of guys. I'm not saying sign Fielder or nothing, although I do want Fielder but signing a handful of average players isn't going to make up for the fact that we have nothing resembling heart of the lineup hitters.

[CubColtPacer]

Coco Crisp is somewhere from average to above average when healthy. I don't necessarily have a problem with acquiring him, but I have a hard time seeing exactly how he would fit into our plans. Of course, if we're moving Soriano/Byrd elsewhere for salary relief or prospects, he might make sense to replace them.

 

It is becoming abundantly clear, however, that the brass does not care for Brett Jackson's strikeout issues.

 

 

Why would they care about his strikeout issues? He's pretty consistently had an ISOd of .100. His worst at any level was .078 in 15 PAs in rookie league ball where he still had an OBP of .533. I'm not saying his strikeout rates should be ignored, but his walk rate should also be considered. I realize it isn't a direct translation but his MiL BB/K ratio is almost identical to Aramis' ML BB/K ratio. As I've said in other threads, there are quite a few hitters in the Cubs system that I worry about when it comes to strikeouts, patience and pitch recognition and Jackson isn't one of them.

 

The fact that he strikes out that much in the minors might mean that his swing can be exploited and that his numbers won't translate well to the majors. His strikeout rate is already dangerously high and most players rates go up when they hit the majors. He still had a strong season last season because he had a .358 BABIP. That isn't likely to continue in the majors. I still have high hopes for Jackson, but that is a huge red flag.

[Guest]

DeJesus was a nice addition. Stewart was a nice additon. Barton could be a nice additon. Crisp might be a nice additon if we could move Soriano and/or Byrd. However, how good is our team going to be if we keep adding nice additons with no foundation? Guys like Crisp, Byrd, and DeJesus are good guys to sign to bat 6-7 if you already have a strong lineup but they arent going to make a bad team good or even average. I'm all about the low risk/high reward young players, and have no problem with DeJesus if he could give us Fukudome's production for less than half the price but we really shouldn't be filling the roster with these types of guys. I'm not saying sign Fielder or nothing, although I do want Fielder but signing a handful of average players isn't going to make up for the fact that we have nothing resembling heart of the lineup hitters.

 

Crisp wouldn't be filling a roster spot where an impact player would go.

[MSG T]

Coco Crisp is somewhere from average to above average when healthy. I don't necessarily have a problem with acquiring him, but I have a hard time seeing exactly how he would fit into our plans. Of course, if we're moving Soriano/Byrd elsewhere for salary relief or prospects, he might make sense to replace them.

 

It is becoming abundantly clear, however, that the brass does not care for Brett Jackson's strikeout issues.

 

 

Why would they care about his strikeout issues? He's pretty consistently had an ISOd of .100. His worst at any level was .078 in 15 PAs in rookie league ball where he still had an OBP of .533. I'm not saying his strikeout rates should be ignored, but his walk rate should also be considered. I realize it isn't a direct translation but his MiL BB/K ratio is almost identical to Aramis' ML BB/K ratio. As I've said in other threads, there are quite a few hitters in the Cubs system that I worry about when it comes to strikeouts, patience and pitch recognition and Jackson isn't one of them.

 

The fact that he strikes out that much in the minors might mean that his swing can be exploited and that his numbers won't translate well to the majors. His strikeout rate is already dangerously high and most players rates go up when they hit the majors. He still had a strong season last season because he had a .358 BABIP. That isn't likely to continue in the majors. I still have high hopes for Jackson, but that is a huge red flag.

 

 

I don't completely disagree, but I'd be far more worried with the strikeout rate if he had a much lower walk rate. I mean, compared to Vitters, for example, he strikes out more, but he also has a much higher walk rate. In looking at other former prospects for the Cubs, for major league numbers, I'd guess Matt Murton-like with a little lower BA, but similar OBP and slightly higher SLG. Near as I can tell, including his full 2008 season, Murton put up .288/.354/.438 for the Cubs. I'd think Jackson would do something close to that for OPS, albeit with a somewhat lower BA. I'd take a near .800 OPS from my 24 year old CF making around $.5 mil and I truly think he could do that. Now, I wouldn't expect a lot higher than that unless his power continues to develop, but I'd bet he could settle in somewhere around a .350-.360 OBP w/13-15 HR power.

[Omar]

Isn't a career .330 OBP, 95 career OPS+ a little low for Theo/Jed?

[Rob]

Isn't a career .330 OBP, 95 career OPS+ a little low for Theo/Jed?

 

Defense and baserunning is the new walks (although walks are certainly still welcome). Get with the program already.

[SouthSideRyan]

Isn't a career .330 OBP, 95 career OPS+ a little low for Theo/Jed?

 

Defense and baserunning is the new walks (although walks are certainly still welcome). Get with the program already.

 

Great let's be the 75 win A's or the 65 win Mariners

[jersey cubs fan]

Isn't a career .330 OBP, 95 career OPS+ a little low for Theo/Jed?

 

Defense and baserunning is the new walks (although walks are certainly still welcome). Get with the program already.

 

Great let's be the 75 win A's or the 65 win Mariners

 

The key is to go all-in.

[Rob]

What did you guys expect? Theo had been trending hard towards defense since he took over the Red Sox. Hell, he traded Nomar to us in order to get Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz. He spent half his tenure trying to get rid of Manny. He went hard after guys like Adrian Beltre, JD Drew, Mike Lowell, Adrian Gonzalez, and Mike Cameron. He drafted guys like Ellsbury.

 

Theo likes players who have well rounded skillsets. Is that somehow a bad thing?

[jersey cubs fan]

What did you guys expect? Theo had been trending hard towards defense since he took over the Red Sox. Hell, he traded Nomar to us in order to get Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz. He spent half his tenure trying to get rid of Manny. He went hard after guys like Adrian Beltre, JD Drew, Mike Lowell, Adrian Gonzalez, and Mike Cameron. He drafted guys like Ellsbury.

 

Theo likes players who have well rounded skillsets. Is that somehow a bad thing?

 

We aren't talking about guys with well rounded skillsets. We are talking about one dimensional players whose dimension isn't nearly as important as the one they don't have.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

What did you guys expect? Theo had been trending hard towards defense since he took over the Red Sox. Hell, he traded Nomar to us in order to get Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz. He spent half his tenure trying to get rid of Manny. He went hard after guys like Adrian Beltre, JD Drew, Mike Lowell, Adrian Gonzalez, and Mike Cameron. He drafted guys like Ellsbury.

 

Theo likes players who have well rounded skillsets. Is that somehow a bad thing?

 

Most of those guys can also hit.

[dew1679666265]

What did you guys expect? Theo had been trending hard towards defense since he took over the Red Sox. Hell, he traded Nomar to us in order to get Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz. He spent half his tenure trying to get rid of Manny. He went hard after guys like Adrian Beltre, JD Drew, Mike Lowell, Adrian Gonzalez, and Mike Cameron. He drafted guys like Ellsbury.

 

Theo likes players who have well rounded skillsets. Is that somehow a bad thing?

 

If he were pursuing guys with well-rounded skillsets like the guys you listed, that'd be fine. My concern is that he's targeting guys like Coco Crisp who don't have well-rounded skillsets. He can run the bases well and plays good defense, but isn't very good at getting on base and barely tops a .400 career slugging. His career walk rate is 7.6% and the two highest of his career have come in seasons where he played fewer than 100 games. Add onto that he's 32 years old and has played more than 130 games in a season 4 times and I'm not seeing anything close to well-rounded for Crisp. You can make that argument with DeJesus and you'd be right. But not Crisp.

 

As an aside, the moves Theo has been making to this point do seem similar to what Zduriencik did when he got to Seattle. Jack Z focused almost entirely on defense and baserunning, while completely ignoring offense (brought in guys like Betancourt, Jack Wilson, and others) and it led to Seattle being absolutely horrid his entire tenure so far. If that's the new market inefficiency that has been identified by SABR-savvy GMs and is the plan that Theo is bringing to Chicago, I really hope Theo does a better job of it than Jack Z has done in Seattle.

[Little Slide Rooter]

What did you guys expect? Theo had been trending hard towards defense since he took over the Red Sox. Hell, he traded Nomar to us in order to get Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz. He spent half his tenure trying to get rid of Manny. He went hard after guys like Adrian Beltre, JD Drew, Mike Lowell, Adrian Gonzalez, and Mike Cameron. He drafted guys like Ellsbury.

 

Theo likes players who have well rounded skillsets. Is that somehow a bad thing?

 

We aren't talking about guys with well rounded skillsets. We are talking about one dimensional players whose dimension isn't nearly as important as the one they don't have.

 

For the sake of arguement, if these were rounded skillet guys, that type of thing tends to work out better when you already have Manny, Papi, Damon, Drew, and Pedro.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Little Slide Rooter

[Magnetic Curses]

He still had a strong season last season because he had a .358 BABIP. That isn't likely to continue in the majors.

 

almost certainly assisted by his 24% ld%

[jersey cubs fan]

What did you guys expect? Theo had been trending hard towards defense since he took over the Red Sox. Hell, he traded Nomar to us in order to get Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz. He spent half his tenure trying to get rid of Manny. He went hard after guys like Adrian Beltre, JD Drew, Mike Lowell, Adrian Gonzalez, and Mike Cameron. He drafted guys like Ellsbury.

 

Theo likes players who have well rounded skillsets. Is that somehow a bad thing?

 

We aren't talking about guys with well rounded skillsets. We are talking about one dimensional players whose dimension isn't nearly as important as the one they don't have.

 

For the sake of arguement, if these were rounded skillet guys, that type of thing tends to work out better when you already have Manny, Papi, Damon, Drew, and Pedro.

 

Yeah, forget for a moment that half (or more) of the guys rob listed were and/or are very good hitters, they had a solid lineup top to bottom. You can fit in the cheap defender when you already score lots of runs.

[CubColtPacer]

He still had a strong season last season because he had a .358 BABIP. That isn't likely to continue in the majors.

 

almost certainly assisted by his 24% ld%

 

Well sure, but that's part of why minor league BABIPs tend to be higher than in the majors. He almost certainly won't be able to make that solid of contact against major league pitching.

[jersey cubs fan]

Boston ranked #1 in runs scored four times during Theo's tenure, they never ranked lower than 6 and were 3rd of better every season aside from the 6 ranking. Their rankings for OBP and SLG are pretty much the same. Don't even try to talk nonsense about Theo being obsessed with defenders.

[Rob]

What did you guys expect? Theo had been trending hard towards defense since he took over the Red Sox. Hell, he traded Nomar to us in order to get Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz. He spent half his tenure trying to get rid of Manny. He went hard after guys like Adrian Beltre, JD Drew, Mike Lowell, Adrian Gonzalez, and Mike Cameron. He drafted guys like Ellsbury.

 

Theo likes players who have well rounded skillsets. Is that somehow a bad thing?

 

If he were pursuing guys with well-rounded skillsets like the guys you listed, that'd be fine. My concern is that he's targeting guys like Coco Crisp who don't have well-rounded skillsets. He can run the bases well and plays good defense, but isn't very good at getting on base and barely tops a .400 career slugging. His career walk rate is 7.6% and the two highest of his career have come in seasons where he played fewer than 100 games. Add onto that he's 32 years old and has played more than 130 games in a season 4 times and I'm not seeing anything close to well-rounded for Crisp. You can make that argument with DeJesus and you'd be right. But not Crisp.

 

As an aside, the moves Theo has been making to this point do seem similar to what Zduriencik did when he got to Seattle. Jack Z focused almost entirely on defense and baserunning, while completely ignoring offense (brought in guys like Betancourt, Jack Wilson, and others) and it led to Seattle being absolutely horrid his entire tenure so far. If that's the new market inefficiency that has been identified by SABR-savvy GMs and is the plan that Theo is bringing to Chicago, I really hope Theo does a better job of it than Jack Z has done in Seattle.

 

Crisp has a career .275/.330/.406 triple slash line with a wOBA of .327 and a wRC+ of 98. I'd venture to guess that's about average for a CF over his career. Is it good? No. But it's not like he's bad either.

 

He's a slightly less effective David DeJesus with more injury issues. He's not a perfect signing on even a very good one... but if there's room for him on the team and the price is right, there's no reason for him to elicit the negative reaction he's garnered so far.

[davell]

I can't believe how much play this is getting. We were also connected to Buehrle, Bruce Chen, Capuano, and Harang. We didn't sign those guys and we're not going to sign Crisp either.

[Rob]

Boston ranked #1 in runs scored four times during Theo's tenure, they never ranked lower than 6 and were 3rd of better every season aside from the 6 ranking. Their rankings for OBP and SLG are pretty much the same. Don't even try to talk nonsense about Theo being obsessed with defenders.

 

Are you responding to me? Because I don't know how a team being good on offense is somehow a rebuttal for "Theo likes players with well rounded skillsets."

 

Let me ask you this, how many one dimensional sluggers can you name that Theo Epstein acquired during his tenure in Boston? David Ortiz might've counted if he ever played the field, but he doesn't... so Victor Martinez, maybe? That year Wily Mo Pena was their 4th OF? The one year deal for Todd Walker in Theo's first offseason?

 

You don't see Theo sign many guys who don't contribute in multiple ways.

[jersey cubs fan]

Boston ranked #1 in runs scored four times during Theo's tenure, they never ranked lower than 6 and were 3rd of better every season aside from the 6 ranking. Their rankings for OBP and SLG are pretty much the same. Don't even try to talk nonsense about Theo being obsessed with defenders.

 

Are you responding to me? Because I don't know how a team being good on offense is somehow a rebuttal for "Theo likes players with well rounded skillsets."

 

Let me ask you this, how many one dimensional sluggers can you name that Theo Epstein acquired during his tenure in Boston? David Ortiz might've counted if he ever played the field, but he doesn't... so Victor Martinez, maybe? That year Wily Mo Pena was their 4th OF? The one year deal for Todd Walker in Theo's first offseason?

 

You don't see Theo sign many guys who don't contribute in multiple ways.

 

and yet you are supporting the notion of acquiring coco.

 

your whole post was supporting the notion that theo goes after defensive guys

 

specifically:

What did you guys expect? Theo had been trending hard towards defense since he took over the Red Sox.