Coco Crisp

[jersey cubs fan]

There's not enough room in the lineup to justify such paultry production for such marginal defensive improvement.

 

He's stolen a base every 10 plate appearances the last two years. His offensive production isn't paltry, especially since we're talking about Crisp replacing Soriano, Byrd, or Jackson, none of whom you can clearly say are going to be more productive offensively. Well, maybe Byrd. Either way the point remains.

 

But if all you do is replace mediocrity with mediocrity you are still left with mediocrity. It's just shuffling the deck.

[Guest]

I don't dismiss the value of defense, I think you sound bad pretending you can put a runs driven in with their glove number on players, especially going forward.

 

Again, UZR must be the luckiest guesser that ever guessed then.

 

To bring it back to Crisp, do you think his defensive value is appreciably lower than the relatively modest +5 that UZR assigned to him? You keep railing on this like UZR is giving him his entire value with the glove. Even if we ignore his defensive value entirely, he's been worth 5 wins the last two years.

[Guest]

There's not enough room in the lineup to justify such paultry production for such marginal defensive improvement.

 

He's stolen a base every 10 plate appearances the last two years. His offensive production isn't paltry, especially since we're talking about Crisp replacing Soriano, Byrd, or Jackson, none of whom you can clearly say are going to be more productive offensively. Well, maybe Byrd. Either way the point remains.

 

But if all you do is replace mediocrity with mediocrity you are still left with mediocrity. It's just shuffling the deck.

 

That assumes you didn't get any value in return for unloading Soriano, Byrd, or Jackson. Crisp's cost is likely to be low enough that he offers arbitrage v. the value you get for trading a current OF. If Crisp signs for 2/16, then yeah, there's not much point. But if he signs for 1 year plus option with 8 million guaranteed? There's a definite benefit.

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't dismiss the value of defense, I think you sound bad pretending you can put a runs driven in with their glove number on players, especially going forward.

 

Again, UZR must be the luckiest guesser that ever guessed then.

 

To bring it back to Crisp, do you think his defensive value is appreciably lower than the relatively modest +5 that UZR assigned to him? You keep railing on this like UZR is giving him his entire value with the glove. Even if we ignore his defensive value entirely, he's been worth 5 wins the last two years.

 

He was also worth less than that the previous 4 years combined.

[Guest]

He was also worth less than that the previous 4 years combined.

 

Not sure where you're getting that, even if you don't include defensive value.

[jersey cubs fan]

He was also worth less than that the previous 4 years combined.

 

Not sure where you're getting that, even if you don't include defensive value.

 

br.com, 0.7, 1.5, 1.5, 0.8. Right through his prime

[Guest]

He was also worth less than that the previous 4 years combined.

 

Not sure where you're getting that, even if you don't include defensive value.

 

br.com, 0.7, 1.5, 1.5, 0.8. Right through his prime

 

BRef scales lower, and is more descriptive than Fangraphs, which is more predictive. But that's neither here nor there.

[jersey cubs fan]

for the record, I wouldn't cry if Coco Crisp was on the team. I just think he's not the type of player this organization should be going after, and if they do go after such a player we're essentially playing not to suck next year instead of trying to be good. He has no long-term value and only marginal short-term value. Unless this team actually finds impact players elsewhere, he serves no purpose other than being a placeholder.

[Little Slide Rooter]

for the record, I wouldn't cry if Coco Crisp was on the team. I just think he's not the type of player this organization should be going after, and if they do go after such a player we're essentially playing not to suck next year instead of trying to be good. He has no long-term value and only marginal short-term value. Unless this team actually finds impact players elsewhere, he serves no purpose other than being a placeholder.

 

If we didnt already have 2 of him I'd be OK with it and this isn't Voltron where you can take a bunch of mediocre players and combine them into one unstoppable or at least useful force.

[dew1679666265]

He isn't being rumored for a spot that the masses are targeting for an impact player this year. Indications are thus far that he wouldn't be prohibitively expensive, or require a long term deal. So what's the problem?

 

Honest question - how much better do you expect Crisp to be than Brett Jackson next year? I have two concerns with signing Crisp -

 

1) we've got a better version of him already on the team in DeJesus and this would leave us with no upside whatsoever in 2 out of 3 spots (there's a tiny bit with Soriano, if he stays)

 

2) if we're signing Crisp for his defense and baserunning (which is clearly his strength), Brett Jackson ought to be comparable in those two areas and while he may be worse with the bat, he also has upside with the bat that Crisp lacks and he's much, much cheaper.

 

Bill James prediction:

Crisp: .271/.333/.395/.328 wOBA (Fans: .267/.330/.390/.330 wOBA)

BJax: .251/.333/.434/.342 wOBA

[Guest]

Not sure why you're comparing Crisp to Jackson like I'd rather play Crisp. I've said all along that Crisp would be the 4th guy after one of Soriano/Byrd/Jackson get traded, and great insurance against injury and ineffectiveness to those 3.

[jersey cubs fan]

But if he signs for 1 year plus option with 8 million guaranteed? There's a definite benefit.

 

Wait, I didn't notice this before. How the hell is there definitely a benefit to signing this guy to a deal that guarantees $8m?

[Abe Frohman]

I really enjoyed the Voltron reference.

[SouthSideRyan]

But if he signs for 1 year plus option with 8 million guaranteed? There's a definite benefit.

 

Wait, I didn't notice this before. How the hell is there definitely a benefit to signing this guy to a deal that guarantees $8m?

 

Wait, what 8M for a 4th guy in an OF rotation?

[dew1679666265]

Not sure why you're comparing Crisp to Jackson like I'd rather play Crisp. I've said all along that Crisp would be the 4th guy after one of Soriano/Byrd/Jackson get traded, and great insurance against injury and ineffectiveness to those 3.

 

Let me make sure I'm understanding you right, because I think I'm confused: Are you in favor of Crisp starting or being the 4th OF? Because even assuming we trade one of Soriano/Byrd/Jackson, that still leaves us with DeJesus and two of Sori/Byrd/Jackson plsu Crisp. Just for the sake of limiting the slashes, let's say we trade Byrd. I'm assuming Soriano would start and obviously DeJesus would. That leaves either Crisp or Jackson to start in CF.

 

That said, I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable giving Crisp $8 million to be the 4th OF, especially when he's just a slightly better and much older version of Tony Campana.

 

Bill James' Campana prediction: .289/.333/.341/.311 wOBA

 

If we're just talking about a 4th OF whose primary strengths are defense and baserunning, I think I'd rather invest the $8 million elsewhere and give Campana the role.

[Abe Frohman]

If we're just talking about a 4th OF whose primary strengths are defense and baserunning, I think I'd rather invest the $8 million elsewhere and give Campana the role.

 

Agree.

[Guest]

Yeah, that's not right. I was conflating his value over a full season versus the playing time he'd get in that ideal situation. My mistake.

 

EDIT: The hypothetical contract amount that is.

[dew1679666265]

MLBTR

 

9:12pm: Multiple teams remain interested and Crisp's agent declined to characterize discussions, according to Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (on Twitter).

[Springfield_CUBBY]

MLBTR

 

9:12pm: Multiple teams remain interested and Crisp's agent declined to characterize discussions, according to Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (on Twitter).

Goold: "What do you make of these discussions?"

Agent: "Why I could make a hat, or a brooch, a pterodactyl. . . ."

[mul21]

MLBTR

 

9:12pm: Multiple teams remain interested and Crisp's agent declined to characterize discussions, according to Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (on Twitter).

Goold: "What do you make of these discussions?"

Agent: "Why I could make a hat, or a brooch, a pterodactyl. . . ."

 

Wow, getting that makes me feel old. Great movie though. It took me years to really get the "I have a drinking problem" joke where he pours the screwdriver all over his face.

[dew1679666265]

MLBTR

 

9:12pm: Multiple teams remain interested and Crisp's agent declined to characterize discussions, according to Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (on Twitter).

Goold: "What do you make of these discussions?"

Agent: "Why I could make a hat, or a brooch, a pterodactyl. . . ."

 

Excellent reference.

[dew1679666265]

MLBTR

 

TUESDAY, 3:49pm: Agent Steve Comte told Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports that Crisp wants to play for a winner and find a home for a few years. The Cubs and Cardinals are among the teams involved, Rosenthal tweets. MLBTR's Tim Dierkes first mentioned the Cubs' interest last week.

 

The bolded makes me really not want Crisp.

[d_money]

MLBTR

 

TUESDAY, 3:49pm: Agent Steve Comte told Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports that Crisp wants to play for a winner and find a home for a few years. The Cubs and Cardinals are among the teams involved, Rosenthal tweets. MLBTR's Tim Dierkes first mentioned the Cubs' interest last week.

 

The bolded makes me really not want Crisp.

 

Agreed. 3 years for this 32 yr old? No thanks.

[Schwarber Fan]

I'm STUNNED he's only 32

[Little Slide Rooter]

MLBTR

 

TUESDAY, 3:49pm: Agent Steve Comte told Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports that Crisp wants to play for a winner and find a home for a few years. The Cubs and Cardinals are among the teams involved, Rosenthal tweets. MLBTR's Tim Dierkes first mentioned the Cubs' interest last week.

 

The bolded makes me really not want Crisp.

 

What about the fact that a team desperate for power and general offense and is seemingly about to embark on a full rebuild has no use for Coco Crisp?