Re: Jake Fox and Aaron Miles traded to Oakland for 3 prospects

[dew1679666265]

I don't agree at all that Z and Fuku were bad contracts

 

It will take a miracle for Zambrano to earn his contract. He is at best break even production vs salary now and it is much more likely his value goes down before it goes up. More importantly giving a long contract like that to any pitcher is a bad idea.

 

Fukudome it is still too early to tell but I think that one will work out ok.

 

Both Z and Fuku contracts are bad. Z has shown he's not even our best pitcher(Lilly probably is). Fuku has been a major disappointment. I keep hoping he'll got back to Japan and decide to stay there.

 

But it goes back to the Hendry regime having no plan and being unable to evaluate talent.

 

It's not Z's fault that Lilly has pitched out of his mind since coming to the Cubs. Z has been a very good pitcher for the Cubs for multiple years and is only 28. Just because another pitcher is excelling doesn't make Z's contract a bad one.

 

As for Fuku, he's had OPS' of .738 and .796 so far with the Cubs. He's also been worth more than his salary for both his seasons as a Cub. He's certainly not been a major disappointment and with another season like he had last year, his contract will look pretty good.

[erik316wttn]

If someone walks into your house and sets your kitchen on fire, then puts it out, are you going to praise them for extinguishing the fire, or are you going to yell at them for setting the fire in the first place?

 

That logic applies here: Hendry made a good move trading Miles and getting some interesting names back in return. However, Miles never should have been here to begin with, especially for that amount of money, so that's what I'm going to focus on.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If someone walks into your house and sets your kitchen on fire, then puts it out, are you going to praise them for extinguishing the fire, or are you going to yell at them for setting the fire in the first place?

 

That logic applies here: Hendry made a good move trading Miles and getting some interesting names back in return. However, Miles never should have been here to begin with, especially for that amount of money, so that's what I'm going to focus on.

 

It's more like this: If someone punches you in the face, you have the right to be angry with them about that. If they fix your broken nose, you look pretty silly if you get angry with them for fixing it instead of just leaving you lying on the ground.

 

This is a very good move. I was hoping to move Fox for a bullpen arm, and while I might have set my sights higher than Gray, to get rid of most of Miles' money(not to mention Miles himself), and get a couple prospects in a addition to that arm is a nice deal.

[Benchwarmer]

I don't agree at all that Z and Fuku were bad contracts

 

It will take a miracle for Zambrano to earn his contract. He is at best break even production vs salary now and it is much more likely his value goes down before it goes up. More importantly giving a long contract like that to any pitcher is a bad idea.

 

Fukudome it is still too early to tell but I think that one will work out ok.

 

Both Z and Fuku contracts are bad. Z has shown he's not even our best pitcher(Lilly probably is). Fuku has been a major disappointment. I keep hoping he'll got back to Japan and decide to stay there.

 

But it goes back to the Hendry regime having no plan and being unable to evaluate talent.

 

It's not Z's fault that Lilly has pitched out of his mind since coming to the Cubs. Z has been a very good pitcher for the Cubs for multiple years and is only 28. Just because another pitcher is excelling doesn't make Z's contract a bad one.

 

As for Fuku, he's had OPS' of .738 and .796 so far with the Cubs. He's also been worth more than his salary for both his seasons as a Cub. He's certainly not been a major disappointment and with another season like he had last year, his contract will look pretty good.

 

Z has been an above average pitcher, not a very good one. I wish he was consistent, acted like a leader on the team and acted more mature. He has not. We're paying him to win more than single digit games. I'd see what he could bring on the open market.

 

Fuku is an above average fielder, with a weak arm. He doesn't hit for power as a corner outfielder. His windmill swing and failure to change it just proves my point. He has good speed but hardly steals bases and has made numerous base running mistakes. Other than that...another Hendry mistake.

[USSoccer]

There's nothing that could have been done to take back how stupid the Miles signing was, but the resolution to it was as good as it could have possibly been.

[Backtobanks]

There's nothing that could have been done to take back how stupid the Miles signing was, but the resolution to it was as good as it could have possibly been.

 

I certainly agree, but apparently many posters seem to have trouble moving on now that he has been traded. Actually, if these prospects are anywhere near as good as reported, this could turn out to be a great trade.

[dew1679666265]

Z has been an above average pitcher, not a very good one. I wish he was consistent, acted like a leader on the team and acted more mature. He has not. We're paying him to win more than single digit games. I'd see what he could bring on the open market.

 

On Z being a leader: As long as he performs - which he has - I'm ok that he may not be a leader (which I don't know either way). Every high-priced player on the team doesn't have to lead.

 

On Z winning more than single digit games: He has won single digit games one time since 2002. That was this year and we were not a good team this year. Otherwise, every year he's been a Cub since he was age 21, he's won 13-16 games for us. Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

On Z being an above average pitcher: I used VORP here because that was a nice tidy, singular stat. If that's not good, you can use something else. In 2007, Z was 29th out of 139 pitchers who logged 100+ innings. If you expand that to 150+ innings, he remained 29th out of 90. In 2008, he was 39th out of 140 who logged 100+ innings and 36th out of 95 who logged 150+ innings. This year, he was 54th out of 126 who logged 100+ innings and 51st out of 82 who logged 150+ innings. Two out of the three years of his deal so far, he's been well above average to very good. One year he's been average in VORP. He hasn't quite pitched up to his contract, but he's certainly not a bad contract.

 

On putting Z on the open market: I'd be ok with that if he brought a very substantial return. I wouldn't just dump him for anything, though.

 

Fuku is an above average fielder, with a weak arm. He doesn't hit for power as a corner outfielder. His windmill swing and failure to change it just proves my point. He has good speed but hardly steals bases and has made numerous base running mistakes. Other than that...another Hendry mistake.

 

If you count Kosuke as a corner outfielder, he's a below average hitter and an excellent defender. If you count him as a center fielder, he's a below average fielder and a very good hitter. He was also paid $11.5 million this year, a large sum no doubt, but not that huge in today's environment. He'll be paid $13.5 the next two years. In OPS, Kosuke was 7th in the majors in center fielders with 400+ ABs (full time starters all year).

[Benchwarmer]

Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began.

 

And they were a lot more meaningful back then when your average pitcher went 8-9 innings rather than 5-7.

[brinoch]

Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began.

 

Not true. And wins are a team statistic and a completely useless stat when used to measure a pitcher's effectiveness. The number of times a team won and a pitcher was arbitrarily awarded a win aren't interesting. K, BB, K/9, BB/9, K/BB, WHIP, IP, RS, OBP/A, and ERA (+ inherited runners scoring for relievers) are much more interesting and telling.

 

But that's just me.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

But that's just me.

It's not

[Guest]

Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began.

 

Really? The Cubs had a pitcher last year that was 0-3 after 7 starts, which also happened to be his first ever 7 starts. They should have just kicked him to the curb because he sucked, eh? In 5 of those games, he left giving up 2 runs or less. Think about that for a minute. His ERA was very young Greg Maddux like during that entire 7 games and he didn't win a single one of those games.

 

He ended up 12-10 with a 3.05 ERA, 10th best ERA in the National League.

 

Joe Saunders went 16-7 this year with a 4.60 ERA, and his record was better than Zack Grienke's 16-8 with a 2.16 ERA, so by your calculations, Joe Saunders is better than Zack Grienke.

 

Awesome! :stickman:

[inari]

Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began.

 

You don't really believe this. I feel it.

[Deder]

So should the Cubs sign Looper? He won 14 games last year so he obviously was better than Zambrano.

[JimSorgi]

So should the Cubs sign Looper? He won 14 games last year so he obviously was better than Zambrano.

only if we can lock him up with a long-term deal

[Benchwarmer]

Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began.

 

Really? The Cubs had a pitcher last year that was 0-3 after 7 starts, which also happened to be his first ever 7 starts. They should have just kicked him to the curb because he sucked, eh? In 5 of those games, he left giving up 2 runs or less. Think about that for a minute. His ERA was very young Greg Maddux like during that entire 7 games and he didn't win a single one of those games.

 

He ended up 12-10 with a 3.05 ERA, 10th best ERA in the National League.

 

Joe Saunders went 16-7 this year with a 4.60 ERA, and his record was better than Zack Grienke's 16-8 with a 2.16 ERA, so by your calculations, Joe Saunders is better than Zack Grienke.

 

Awesome! :stickman:

 

Name 5 HOF starting pitchers who do not have winning records.

 

Go ahead..we'll wait.

[Benchwarmer]

Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began.

 

Not true. And wins are a team statistic and a completely useless stat when used to measure a pitcher's effectiveness. The number of times a team won and a pitcher was arbitrarily awarded a win aren't interesting. K, BB, K/9, BB/9, K/BB, WHIP, IP, RS, OBP/A, and ERA (+ inherited runners scoring for relievers) are much more interesting and telling.

 

But that's just me.

 

"Wins' completely useless? :P

 

Wonder why Kerry Wood is looking for a job.

[Andy]

Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began.

 

Really? The Cubs had a pitcher last year that was 0-3 after 7 starts, which also happened to be his first ever 7 starts. They should have just kicked him to the curb because he sucked, eh? In 5 of those games, he left giving up 2 runs or less. Think about that for a minute. His ERA was very young Greg Maddux like during that entire 7 games and he didn't win a single one of those games.

 

He ended up 12-10 with a 3.05 ERA, 10th best ERA in the National League.

 

Joe Saunders went 16-7 this year with a 4.60 ERA, and his record was better than Zack Grienke's 16-8 with a 2.16 ERA, so by your calculations, Joe Saunders is better than Zack Grienke.

 

Awesome! :stickman:

 

Name 5 HOF starting pitchers who do not have winning records.

 

Go ahead..we'll wait.

http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/strawman2.jpg

[JimSorgi]

This guy has to be joking.

[Skyballer]

He reminds me of my dad, aka the RBI/win worshipper

[Cubswin11]

I like where this thread is headed

[Keener98]

Kerry Wood is looking for a job?

[inari]

Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began.

 

Not true. And wins are a team statistic and a completely useless stat when used to measure a pitcher's effectiveness. The number of times a team won and a pitcher was arbitrarily awarded a win aren't interesting. K, BB, K/9, BB/9, K/BB, WHIP, IP, RS, OBP/A, and ERA (+ inherited runners scoring for relievers) are much more interesting and telling.

 

But that's just me.

 

"Wins' completely useless? :P

 

Wonder why Kerry Wood is looking for a job.

 

Come on.

[Andy]

Kerry Wood is looking for a job?

Maybe he's pulling an Artest and wants an employee discount at a store somewhere while he's in year 2 of his contract with Cleveland.

[SouthSideRyan]

Wins for a pitcher are also not a particularly good measure for how good that pitcher is.

 

Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began.

 

Really? The Cubs had a pitcher last year that was 0-3 after 7 starts, which also happened to be his first ever 7 starts. They should have just kicked him to the curb because he sucked, eh? In 5 of those games, he left giving up 2 runs or less. Think about that for a minute. His ERA was very young Greg Maddux like during that entire 7 games and he didn't win a single one of those games.

 

He ended up 12-10 with a 3.05 ERA, 10th best ERA in the National League.

 

Joe Saunders went 16-7 this year with a 4.60 ERA, and his record was better than Zack Grienke's 16-8 with a 2.16 ERA, so by your calculations, Joe Saunders is better than Zack Grienke.

 

Awesome! :stickman:

 

Name 5 HOF starting pitchers who do not have winning records.

 

Go ahead..we'll wait.

 

Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers and Satchel Paige.

 

If you're talking about single seasons, well pretty much all of them.

 

What any of that has to do with anything is beyond me. When's the last time Zambrano had a losing record? There are 68 pitchers in the hall of fame. 41 have worse winning percentages than Zambrano. 19 have worse winning percentages than Kerry Wood.