Dusty strikes again!!

[mul21]

Volquez to have TJS.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AlOJ34uafIXWszLvx7oIVdURvLYF?slug=ap-reds-volquez&prov=ap&type=lgns

 

Edit: I can't read. Elbow surgery, not known if it's TJS or not yet.

[17 Seconds]

http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/blogmedia/2009/03/dustybaker.jpg

[NCCubFan]

Bailey and Cueto may as well go ahead and schedule appointments for next year with Dr. Andrews.

[Tarver]

It's amusing to sit back and laugh at "Dusty being Dusty" but this is yet another good, young pitcher whose career he's put in jeopardy.

 

It's one thing to be a Baylor or a Bowa, and just mismanage lineups and [expletive]. Dusty willfully ruins the lives of his charges. He can't get out of baseball fast enough, and were I Selig, I'd find a way to ban him for life. What a miserable human being.

[wade]

I don't like Dusty either, but I can't see where he's ridden Volquez and Cueto like he did the young guys when he was with the Cubs. Of course, if the Reds were in a pennant race, I can't say what would happen.

[chitown29]

That really sucks, I wouldn't be surprised if t was Baker's fault.

[Roast]

I don't like Dusty either, but I can't see where he's ridden Volquez and Cueto like he did the young guys when he was with the Cubs. Of course, if the Reds were in a pennant race, I can't say what would happen.

Well, he certainly hasnt been AS bad as he was with Prior/Wood....

 

Out of Volquez' 9 starts this year, he threw 100+ pitches 5 times (107,104,106,110,108).

Last year out of his 33 starts, 22 of them he threw 100+ pitches, topping out at 121 on Sept 13 @ Arizona. He also had FOURTEEN starts last year in which he went 110 or more pitches, including ALL BUT ONE of his starts in september (117, 119, 121, 111, 98)

 

...but he definitely hasn't tried to protect Volquez' arm.

[wade]

I don't like Dusty either, but I can't see where he's ridden Volquez and Cueto like he did the young guys when he was with the Cubs. Of course, if the Reds were in a pennant race, I can't say what would happen.

Well, he certainly hasnt been AS bad as he was with Prior/Wood....

 

Out of Volquez' 9 starts this year, he threw 100+ pitches 5 times (107,104,106,110,108).

Last year out of his 33 starts, 22 of them he threw 100+ pitches, topping out at 121 on Sept 13 @ Arizona. He also had FOURTEEN starts last year in which he went 110 or more pitches, including ALL BUT ONE of his starts in september (117, 119, 121, 111, 98)

 

...but he definitely hasn't tried to protect Volquez' arm.

 

Volquez is a good pitcher when healthy- so he went deep into a lot of games last year. I've looked at Dusty's work in Cincy and using stuff like PAP over at baseballprospectus he is- like you said- not like he was with the Cubs.

 

I'm not saying he's innocent, mind you- I just don't see the level of evidence someone can build against him with other teams. With the Reds he doesn't appear to have run them in the ground.

[Roast]

I don't like Dusty either, but I can't see where he's ridden Volquez and Cueto like he did the young guys when he was with the Cubs. Of course, if the Reds were in a pennant race, I can't say what would happen.

Well, he certainly hasnt been AS bad as he was with Prior/Wood....

 

Out of Volquez' 9 starts this year, he threw 100+ pitches 5 times (107,104,106,110,108).

Last year out of his 33 starts, 22 of them he threw 100+ pitches, topping out at 121 on Sept 13 @ Arizona. He also had FOURTEEN starts last year in which he went 110 or more pitches, including ALL BUT ONE of his starts in september (117, 119, 121, 111, 98)

 

...but he definitely hasn't tried to protect Volquez' arm.

 

Volquez is a good pitcher when healthy- so he went deep into a lot of games last year. I've looked at Dusty's work in Cincy and using stuff like PAP over at baseballprospectus he is- like you said- not like he was with the Cubs.

 

I'm not saying he's innocent, mind you- I just don't see the level of evidence someone can build against him with other teams. With the Reds he doesn't appear to have run them in the ground.

 

Maybe not, but I still think you can make an argument about Volquez' September 08. 110+ pitches in four consecutive starts?

[imb]

I don't like Dusty either, but I can't see where he's ridden Volquez and Cueto like he did the young guys when he was with the Cubs. Of course, if the Reds were in a pennant race, I can't say what would happen.

Well, he certainly hasnt been AS bad as he was with Prior/Wood....

 

Out of Volquez' 9 starts this year, he threw 100+ pitches 5 times (107,104,106,110,108).

Last year out of his 33 starts, 22 of them he threw 100+ pitches, topping out at 121 on Sept 13 @ Arizona. He also had FOURTEEN starts last year in which he went 110 or more pitches, including ALL BUT ONE of his starts in september (117, 119, 121, 111, 98)

 

...but he definitely hasn't tried to protect Volquez' arm.

 

Volquez is a good pitcher when healthy- so he went deep into a lot of games last year. I've looked at Dusty's work in Cincy and using stuff like PAP over at baseballprospectus he is- like you said- not like he was with the Cubs.

 

I'm not saying he's innocent, mind you- I just don't see the level of evidence someone can build against him with other teams. With the Reds he doesn't appear to have run them in the ground.

 

Maybe not, but I still think you can make an argument about Volquez' September 08. 110+ pitches in four consecutive starts?

 

since when is 110 pitches a lot? quit pretending like you can make any kind of judgment based on just 4 pitchcounts

[wade]

Maybe not, but I still think you can make an argument about Volquez' September 08. 110+ pitches in four consecutive starts?

 

All those were 1 run games and he pitched well in each. Lookin at his game logs for those, he only went over 25 pitches in two innings during that 4 game stretch.

 

Those games in September didn't decide a pennant, but they were tight games and judging by the gamelogs he didn't really have but a couple of stressful innnings as far as pitches thrown. He also had an extra day's rest 8 times last year- just like Rich Harden. :D (Rich had several other outings with longer rest, too- I wanted to drop his name for emphasis, but it needed the disclaimer).

[sneakypower]

fwiw, only 12 pitchers in baseball threw more pitches than Volquez last year

[BillyBuck22]

Oh hogwash...this was never an issue "back when I was growing up" when four man rotations were the norm; heck, i recall wilbur wood pitched both games of a double-header one time. The evolution of the middle relievers and closers has lead to the "pussification" of starters. Has anyone given any consideration to the possibility of pitchers not being trained properly when it comes to conditioning and strength training? Or the torque subjected to pitcher's arms when throwing certain pitches that weren't so common way back when. I am by no means trying to make a case for Busty Faker (who I think is one of the dumbest managers/head coaches ever, along with Don Baylor and Tyrone Willingham), but I don't see the pitch counts referenced above as being way out of whack to the point that it should be a reason to point the finger at the manager.

[jersey cubs fan]

Oh hogwash...this was never an issue "back when I was growing up" when four man rotations were the norm; heck, i recall wilbur wood pitched both games of a double-header one time. The evolution of the middle relievers and closers has lead to the "[expletive]" of starters. Has anyone given any consideration to the possibility of pitchers not being trained properly when it comes to conditioning and strength training? Or the torque subjected to pitcher's arms when throwing certain pitches that weren't so common way back when. I am by no means trying to make a case for Busty Faker (who I think is one of the dumbest managers/head coaches ever, along with Don Baylor and Tyrone Willingham), but I don't see the pitch counts referenced above as being way out of whack to the point that it should be a reason to point the finger at the manager.

 

Uphillbothwayssnowmenwasmenblahblahblah

[SouthSideRyan]

I am by no means trying to make a case for Busty Faker (who I think is one of the dumbest managers/head coaches ever, along with Don Baylor and Tyrone Willingham

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[apete6]

I am by no means trying to make a case for Busty Faker (who I think is one of the dumbest managers/head coaches ever, along with Don Baylor and Tyrone Willingham

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

Ya, make sure you can make the next Klan rally.

[Roast]

Oh hogwash...this was never an issue "back when I was growing up" when four man rotations were the norm; heck, i recall wilbur wood pitched both games of a double-header one time. The evolution of the middle relievers and closers has lead to the "[expletive]" of starters. Has anyone given any consideration to the possibility of pitchers not being trained properly when it comes to conditioning and strength training? Or the torque subjected to pitcher's arms when throwing certain pitches that weren't so common way back when. I am by no means trying to make a case for Busty Faker (who I think is one of the dumbest managers/head coaches ever, along with Don Baylor and Tyrone Willingham), but I don't see the pitch counts referenced above as being way out of whack to the point that it should be a reason to point the finger at the manager.

They were actually talking about this the other day on ESPN (I know, I know) and they made a pretty good point about the fact that with the increase in training and such - both hitters and pitchers are better than they were 'back in the day.'

 

Their point to this was that some pitchers from years past talked about being able to 'coast' for a few hitters, but now days there is such an emphasis on offense that even 7-8-9 hitters on many teams (the area where a pitcher may have been able to throw less than his best stuff before) are talented enough to require a pitcher to throw more of his best stuff. Which means more strain on the arm, and more breaking balls - which is harder on the arm.

[VladiRad]

Volquez has reached the 120 pitch mark just once with Dusty but he goes 110 quite often but that used to be expected for a starter. I don't know what's going on if it's just because pitcher's are babied their whole career. Volquez probably only threw 60-70 pitches a game in the minors and 70-80 a game with the Rangers and then all of a sudden he has to increase that total by 30-40 a start, his arm isn't used to it. I blame this on babying pitchers too much instead of Dusty. Dusty's just using not so old philosophies. Managers used to be able to throw pitchers out there for 120-130 pitches a start on a regular basis and not expect the player's arm to fall off. Raise these guys from the minors on to be able to handle being major league pitchers. The most durable pitchers of this era threw large amounts of pitches in their careers.

 

For example, in one game in 1992 Randy Johnson threw 160 pitches in one game, and he's thrown 130 pitches in a game at least a 100 times in his career. Well he turned out fine, because his arm was accustomed from minors and college to throw that many pitches.

 

Also Greg Maddux threw 130+ pitches in a game 6 times as a 22 year old, including a 10 and 2/3 inning outing where he threw 167 pitches. His arm lasted a pretty long time, didn't it.

Edited August 3, 2009 by VladiRad

[Roast]

 

since when is 110 pitches a lot? quit pretending like you can make any kind of judgment based on just 4 pitchcounts

Oh come on, IMB. I'm certainly not trying to make an argument that he abused volquez anywhere near the extent that he did Prior/wood. What I was saying was simply that a Volquez threw 110+ (Which has been considered 'a lot' for quite some time now) on 14 occasions in 08 - with four of them coming in consecutive starts in games that meant absolutely nothing, and that probably isn't exactly doing the best job of Volquez' arm.

[VladiRad]

^Blame it on the organizations who were too busy trying to protect his fragile little arm instead of training him to be a durable major league starter. This is happening more and more because they're throwing millions at young pitchers and they're trying too hard to protect their investments. They put these guys on pitch counts of 60 when they get to the majors then 65 for the next start and so on. It's a bunch of crap and they're just building these guys to have the durability of middle relievers instead of starting pitchers.

 

And 110 hasn't been considered a lot for that long. Find any starter that's at least 29 and you'll find that they threw 110 their whole careers without that causing them arm problems.

[UK1679666180]

The pitch count is just arbitrary. Injuries happen regardless of how much you try and prevent them and can happen to the pitchers with the best mechanics ala Schilling's shoulder. There will be times when a pitcher is gassed at 85 pitches and the next start could be stronger at 110 than he was at 85.

 

You have to factor mechanics, effort in the delivery, types of pitches thrown, workout routine in the off-season and between starts, one's own ability to analyze fatigue, etc.

 

With that said, a manager has a responsibility to limit the workload when he has a chance to do so which is where I think is where Baker has failed to do so in the past. I don't think it caused the injuries but it surely didn't help try and prevent future arm problems. Baker is a prime example of a manager that should be more pro-active in resting starters when the opportunities arise.

[imb]

 

since when is 110 pitches a lot? quit pretending like you can make any kind of judgment based on just 4 pitchcounts

Oh come on, IMB. I'm certainly not trying to make an argument that he abused volquez anywhere near the extent that he did Prior/wood. What I was saying was simply that a Volquez threw 110+ (Which has been considered 'a lot' for quite some time now) on 14 occasions in 08 - with four of them coming in consecutive starts in games that meant absolutely nothing, and that probably isn't exactly doing the best job of Volquez' arm.

 

110 pitches, oh god, sound the alarm. If he'd thrown 10 less, 100 per start, everyone would chalk this up to a small frame guy's arm going out. Which happens all the time and has nothing to do with overuse or Dusty Baker or anything.

 

Pitcher's arms go out. It happens. You have no idea what kind of situations he was in when he was racking up these pitch counts. Was it high-stress? Of course, you don't know, cause all you did was google his name and look at his game log for 10 seconds.

 

Maybe they should have thrown him just 90 pitchers per start, since the Reds weren't in any kind of pennant race last year. Of course, then this year, when the Reds spent half the season in the hunt, Volquez would be hitting the 90 pitch mark and he'd have no major league experience of dealing with higher pitchcounts. And his arm would have probably still busted, and then what?

[jersey cubs fan]

Yeah, it's all arbitrary, injuries just happen it has nothing to do with pitching more than others especially at a young age.

 

Dusty can destroy pitchers in their early 20's he's done it before and he'll do it again.

[UK1679666180]

Yeah, it's all arbitrary, injuries just happen it has nothing to do with pitching more than others especially at a young age.

 

Dusty can destroy pitchers in their early 20's he's done it before and he'll do it again.

 

Yes, the pitch count is arbitrary. You're out of your mind if you think that pitch counts is the primary reason why a pitcher gets hurt compared to the other factors I had mentioned. It's stupid to try and pick out one phrase (which is correct) and ignore everything else I had mentioned.

[VladiRad]

Pitch count is arbitrary itself. A pitcher won't have any more wear and tear if he was brought up to throw 120 instead of 90 pitches a game. But having a guy's pitch count fluctuate between 70 pitches a game to 110 a game will make it relevant. Have everyone on the same page as to how to work a guy, which would be the old way by not treating him like he's a million dollar vase, and then this stuff will happen less. And like my other 2 posts I'm sure this one won't be read either.