Re: XM 175 - Orlando Hudson to the Dodgers....

[jersey cubs fan]

We can throw names around all day, but I still have problems with comparing DeRosa with Miles. DeRosa was a starter who played many positions while Miles was brought in strictly as sub. Obviously their contracts and production are different partly because of that. The way I look at it, Miles is replacing Cedeno not DeRosa.

 

Why? DeRosa was the versatile veteran making a few million to play regularly at 2B and fill-in at multiple positions. But he only hit RH. Miles is the versatile veteran making millions, who replaced him. Miles was brought in to play many positions and bring "balance" to the lineup. They wanted to get more LH and he is the only guy on the roster brought in to replace a RH in order to accomplish that goal. There's no reason not to compare the two.

 

I'm using a much simpler explanation. Miles was brought in as a sub middle IF who can play other positions in a pinch. That role for the past few years was Cedeno's and not DeRosa's. DeRosa was brought in to be the starting 2B and was versatile enough to play other positions in case of injuries. Therefore, Miles is replacing Cedeno.

 

The simple explanation is DeRosa left and Miles replaced him.

 

Cedeno averaged 150 PA a year under Piniella. Miles, as the only backup infielder, and very likely platoon option at 2B, is going to dwarf that number. There is no replacement for Cedeno, as of now.

[dew1679666265]

We can throw names around all day, but I still have problems with comparing DeRosa with Miles. DeRosa was a starter who played many positions while Miles was brought in strictly as sub. Obviously their contracts and production are different partly because of that. The way I look at it, Miles is replacing Cedeno not DeRosa.

 

But you still have the at bats missed by Aramis, Soriano and Bradley when/if they get injured. That will be quite a few ABs - especially for Bradley. Had we still had DeRosa, those ABs would have gone to him. Now, they'll be mixed around among Miles, Hoff and Gathright.

 

That's why the DeRosa trade hurt so much.

 

I agree that I would have tried to keep DeRosa, but I guess Hendry felt like he was the one that had to go for whatever reason (salary, need to be more LH, etc.). Once before you posted that time missed by Soriano and Bradley would be covered by Miles, Gathright, and Hoff, but I would think Johnson would get more of the OF ABs over Gathright if someone is injured.

 

It depends, Hendry wants to get more lefty after all and Reed's a righty. Even if Reed fills in full-time in RF when Bradley goes down (for instance), that leaves Fuku to play full-time in CF. His numbers vs lefties will be a whole lot worse than DeRosa's numbers were he in RF and the platoon stayed in CF.

 

Any way you slice it, trading DeRosa and bringing in Miles was a downgrade to the team.

[dew1679666265]

We can throw names around all day, but I still have problems with comparing DeRosa with Miles. DeRosa was a starter who played many positions while Miles was brought in strictly as sub. Obviously their contracts and production are different partly because of that. The way I look at it, Miles is replacing Cedeno not DeRosa.

 

Why? DeRosa was the versatile veteran making a few million to play regularly at 2B and fill-in at multiple positions. But he only hit RH. Miles is the versatile veteran making millions, who replaced him. Miles was brought in to play many positions and bring "balance" to the lineup. They wanted to get more LH and he is the only guy on the roster brought in to replace a RH in order to accomplish that goal. There's no reason not to compare the two.

 

I'm using a much simpler explanation. Miles was brought in as a sub middle IF who can play other positions in a pinch. That role for the past few years was Cedeno's and not DeRosa's. DeRosa was brought in to be the starting 2B and was versatile enough to play other positions in case of injuries. Therefore, Miles is replacing Cedeno.

 

The simple explanation is DeRosa left and Miles replaced him.

 

Cedeno averaged 150 PA a year under Piniella. Miles, as the only backup infielder, and very likely platoon option at 2B, is going to dwarf that number. There is no replacement for Cedeno, as of now.

 

If Hoff ends up making the 25-man roster, you could make the argument that he's replacing Cedeno (seeing as how we won't have any other backup MIF). That's an upgrade. :D

[Illini Iceman]

can someone please link me to something that says the payroll will be 140m? multiple people are speaking as though that's an absolute, so it should be fairly easy to find something that says that.

 

viewtopic.php?p=2085077#p2085077 (Levine)

 

viewtopic.php?p=2041881#p2041881 (Miles)

 

viewtopic.php?p=2042187#p2042187 (Wittenmeyer with words from Kenney)

thanks, but none of those links provides anything more than speculation.

 

oh come on. Things could have changed since those reports came out, but that's 3 guys whose sources have the same figure. Seems like a tad more than some guy at nsbb pulling a number out of thin air.

you're missing the point. people in this thread are using the 140m term as if it's absolute. i'd just like to see something - anything - that says that. has hendry ever even said anything along the lines of "we'll probably wind up in the 140 range" or anything similar?

 

I don't think I'm missing anything. If you expect Hendry to say that the payroll will be exactly $140m and nothing is going to change his mind, you're not going to get it. But what you're asking is pretty close to what Crane said in one or more of those linked articles.

no, you are.

 

people are arguing against the derosa trade because had the cubs have kept him, they still could've signed bradley and came in at 140m. not knowing what the cubs brass intends the payroll to be, the entire point is moot. IIRC, in the past hendry has been pretty forthcoming about what his budget is. i have yet to see anything concrete that says what that is this year.

 

"no, you are" - so we're in 3rd grade now? If you want to know how much the Cubs are going to spend, words from the CEO are better than from the GM. Are you just being really difficult b/c TT gave you exactly what you were looking for when you didn't think he could?

 

I think that Hendry traded DeRosa and Marquis in what were pretty clear salary dumps just prior to signing Bradley tells you exactly how much the Cubs were willing to spend. Hendry's actions speak much louder than the Paul Sullivan's speculation about some mythical $140M salary cap.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think that Hendry traded DeRosa and Marquis in what were pretty clear salary dumps just prior to signing Bradley tells you exactly how much the Cubs were willing to spend. Hendry's actions speak much louder than the Paul Sullivan's speculation about some mythical $140M salary cap.

 

Sullivan was far from the only one.

 

But I think Hendry's words, that he traded DeRosa and then signed Miles so he could get more left handed is much more likely to be the answer.

[cubbinalltheway]

Any way you slice it, trading DeRosa and bringing in Miles was a downgrade to the team.

any way you slice it, trading derosa and bringing in bradley was an upgrade to the team.

[CubColtPacer]

Any way you slice it, trading DeRosa and bringing in Miles was a downgrade to the team.

any way you slice it, trading derosa and bringing in bradley was an upgrade to the team.

 

Those weren't mutually exclusive ideas though. In fact, signing Bradley should have been a big vote towards keeping DeRosa (DeRosa allows you to take Bradley's great production when he's in there and not have a monumental dropoff when he's not). Even if the Cubs were at their absolute major league payroll limit, there were other ways to slice 3.3 million off the payroll.

[dew1679666265]

Any way you slice it, trading DeRosa and bringing in Miles was a downgrade to the team.

any way you slice it, trading derosa and bringing in bradley was an upgrade to the team.

 

Those weren't mutually exclusive ideas though. In fact, signing Bradley should have been a big vote towards keeping DeRosa (DeRosa allows you to take Bradley's great production when he's in there and not have a monumental dropoff when he's not). Even if the Cubs were at their absolute major league payroll limit, there were other ways to slice 3.3 million off the payroll.

 

Precisely. If it was DeRosa gone for 150+ games of Bradley, I'd be all for it. But with the high likelihood of Bradley missing 50-60 (or more) games, the need for DeRosa only gets bigger.

[dew1679666265]

I think that Hendry traded DeRosa and Marquis in what were pretty clear salary dumps just prior to signing Bradley tells you exactly how much the Cubs were willing to spend. Hendry's actions speak much louder than the Paul Sullivan's speculation about some mythical $140M salary cap.

 

Like I said, we're at $137 million now. That $3.3 million is simply too much to take on? Maybe, but I don't buy it.

[17 Seconds]

Any way you slice it, trading DeRosa and bringing in Miles was a downgrade to the team.

any way you slice it, trading derosa and bringing in bradley was an upgrade to the team.

 

that remains to be seen

[17 Seconds]

For all the people saying it was necessary to dump DeRosa to get Bradley

 

Gregg plus Miles- $6.4M

Wuertz plus DeRosa- $6.6M

 

I'd much rather have the second combination.

[Illini Iceman]

I think that Hendry traded DeRosa and Marquis in what were pretty clear salary dumps just prior to signing Bradley tells you exactly how much the Cubs were willing to spend. Hendry's actions speak much louder than the Paul Sullivan's speculation about some mythical $140M salary cap.

 

Sullivan was far from the only one.

 

But I think Hendry's words, that he traded DeRosa and then signed Miles so he could get more left handed is much more likely to be the answer.

 

I guess they were all wrong just like they were on the Peavy "done deal" stuff.

 

Since Fontenot is the LH side of that platoon and he was already on the team signing Miles doesn't make the Cubs more left handed. Putting Bradley in LF is primarily what Hendry indicated made the Cubs more left handed and his actions point to the fact that he needed to clear the DeRosa and Marquis salary to make room to sign him.

[cubbinalltheway]

Any way you slice it, trading DeRosa and bringing in Miles was a downgrade to the team.

any way you slice it, trading derosa and bringing in bradley was an upgrade to the team.

 

Those weren't mutually exclusive ideas though. In fact, signing Bradley should have been a big vote towards keeping DeRosa (DeRosa allows you to take Bradley's great production when he's in there and not have a monumental dropoff when he's not). Even if the Cubs were at their absolute major league payroll limit, there were other ways to slice 3.3 million off the payroll.

nor were trading derosa and adding miles, which was my point.

[dew1679666265]

I think that Hendry traded DeRosa and Marquis in what were pretty clear salary dumps just prior to signing Bradley tells you exactly how much the Cubs were willing to spend. Hendry's actions speak much louder than the Paul Sullivan's speculation about some mythical $140M salary cap.

 

Sullivan was far from the only one.

 

But I think Hendry's words, that he traded DeRosa and then signed Miles so he could get more left handed is much more likely to be the answer.

 

I guess they were all wrong just like they were on the Peavy "done deal" stuff.

 

Since Fontenot is the LH side of that platoon and he was already on the team signing Miles doesn't make the Cubs more left handed. Putting Bradley in LF is primarily what Hendry indicated made the Cubs more left handed and his actions point to the fact that he needed to clear the DeRosa and Marquis salary to make room to sign him.

 

Actually, to nitpick a bit, we had lefties in center and right most of last year (Edmonds in CF and Fukudome in RF). The spot where we got more lefty was at 2B, where Fontenot's lefty bat replaces DeRo's righty bat.

[Backtobanks]

We can throw names around all day, but I still have problems with comparing DeRosa with Miles. DeRosa was a starter who played many positions while Miles was brought in strictly as sub. Obviously their contracts and production are different partly because of that. The way I look at it, Miles is replacing Cedeno not DeRosa.

 

Why? DeRosa was the versatile veteran making a few million to play regularly at 2B and fill-in at multiple positions. But he only hit RH. Miles is the versatile veteran making millions, who replaced him. Miles was brought in to play many positions and bring "balance" to the lineup. They wanted to get more LH and he is the only guy on the roster brought in to replace a RH in order to accomplish that goal. There's no reason not to compare the two.

 

I'm using a much simpler explanation. Miles was brought in as a sub middle IF who can play other positions in a pinch. That role for the past few years was Cedeno's and not DeRosa's. DeRosa was brought in to be the starting 2B and was versatile enough to play other positions in case of injuries. Therefore, Miles is replacing Cedeno.

 

The simple explanation is DeRosa left and Miles replaced him.

 

Cedeno averaged 150 PA a year under Piniella. Miles, as the only backup infielder, and very likely platoon option at 2B, is going to dwarf that number. There is no replacement for Cedeno, as of now.

 

DeRosa had over 500 ABs last year and the year before for the Cubs. He was a starter. Miles might get more playing time than Cedeno, but he won't be playing as much as DeRosa unless there is a catastrophic injury. I would imagine Rivas or someone else might make the roster as an additional IF. My point is that there is no fair one-to-one comparison to DeRosa on this team. Using your explanation, you could say Bradley replaced Edmunds.

[The Other 15]

They wanted another LH bat in the everyday lineup. Fontenot gets that done. Why is everyone completely discounting the idea that the Cubs want to play Fontenot full time? If they feel he can match DeRosas average production (so far the data says he can) that saves them about $5M.

 

Not only were they looking to be more LH, but they were looking for a LH impact bat. DeRosa was in the way of that if you made up your mind that Font deserves a fulltime shot. DeRo is not sitting on anyones bench for $5.5.

[jersey cubs fan]

They wanted another LH bat in the everyday lineup. Fontenot gets that done. Why is everyone completely discounting the idea that the Cubs want to play Fontenot full time? If they feel he can match DeRosas average production (so far the data says he can) that saves them about $5M.

 

Not only were they looking to be more LH, but they were looking for a LH impact bat. DeRosa was in the way of that if you made up your mind that Font deserves a fulltime shot. DeRo is not sitting on anyones bench for $5.5.

 

There's no way they try and play Fontenot fulltime, and that doesn't save them $5m, when they replaced him with Miles, who makes $5m over 2 years.

[jersey cubs fan]

Actually, to nitpick a bit, we had lefties in center and right most of last year (Edmonds in CF and Fukudome in RF). The spot where we got more lefty was at 2B, where Fontenot's lefty bat replaces DeRo's righty bat.

 

But Fontenot was already there. It's the Miles bat that makes the team more LH. Miles replaced DeRosa on the roster.

[cubsfan26]

Miles replaced DeRosa on the roster.

 

Or Cedeno, and you could also say Hoffpauir is taking DeRosa roster spot, with Fontenot getting a bigger role. People can word it anyway they want it to make it sound better to prove their point. Overall this is what we did though.

 

 

Lost

DeRosa-RH

Edmonds-LH

Ward- LH

Cedeno-RH

 

 

Added

Bradley-S

Hoffpauir-LH

Miles-S

Gathright-LH

 

 

 

I guess it depends on how good you feel Hoffpauir can do against RH pitching next year, will factor in how good you feel about the switch. If you feel Hoffpauir can have a 850 OPS(facing mostly RH pitching) off the bench filling in at RF, LF and 1b for 250 AB's or so. Then you probably won't feel we downgraded much, and depending on how much Bradley gives us(should be at least 100 more AB's then Edmonds did) and If Fontenot hits the way the Cubs think he wil, you can actually say we might have upgraded. But right now people can't see that as being possible, because Mark DeRosa is awesome.

Edited February 25, 2009 by cubsfan26

[The Other 15]

They wanted another LH bat in the everyday lineup. Fontenot gets that done. Why is everyone completely discounting the idea that the Cubs want to play Fontenot full time? If they feel he can match DeRosas average production (so far the data says he can) that saves them about $5M.

 

Not only were they looking to be more LH, but they were looking for a LH impact bat. DeRosa was in the way of that if you made up your mind that Font deserves a fulltime shot. DeRo is not sitting on anyones bench for $5.5.

 

There's no way they try and play Fontenot fulltime, and that doesn't save them $5m, when they replaced him with Miles, who makes $5m over 2 years.

You got evidence to the contrary that Font is not in the everyday plans? DeRo was great, he'll come back to earth but I don't wish that on him. But he wasn't going to sit on the bench making $5.5. He just happened to be the odd man out in the new plan to have Font adding a LH bat everyday - not for 290 AB's.

 

It saves them $3.3 mil this season. When you raised your payroll by $13 mil tha's nothing to sneeze at.

[17 Seconds]

Miles replaced DeRosa on the roster.

 

Or Cedeno, and you could also say Hoffpauir is taking DeRosa roster spot, with Fontenot getting a bigger role. People can word it anyway they want it to make it sound better to prove their point. Overall this is what we did though.

 

 

Lost

DeRosa-RH

Edmonds-LH

Ward- LH

Cedeno-RH

 

 

Added

Bradley-S

Hoffpauir-LH

Miles-S

Gathright-LH

 

 

 

I guess it depends on how good you feel Hoffpauir can do against RH pitching next year, will factor in how good you feel about the switch. If you feel Hoffpauir can have a 850 OPS(facing mostly RH pitching) off the bench filling in at RF, LF and 1b for 250 AB's or so. Then you probably won't feel we downgraded much, and depending on how much Bradley gives us(should be at least 100 more AB's then Edmonds did) and If Fontenot hits the way the Cubs think he wil, you can actually say we might have upgraded. But right now people can't see that as being possible, because Mark DeRosa is awesome.

 

Or because people don't trust Bradley enough to stay healthy. The second bradley gets hurt we're going to feel the loss of DeRosa. I was fine with signing Bradley or trading DeRosa, but not both.

 

And I don't know how you can try to spin it around any other way than Miles replacing DeRosa. That's exactly who he is replacing. There's a reason both moves were made on the same day. All the other moves don't change that Miles was brought in to replace DeRosa. It was going to be one of those 2 guys.

[CubColtPacer]

They wanted another LH bat in the everyday lineup. Fontenot gets that done. Why is everyone completely discounting the idea that the Cubs want to play Fontenot full time? If they feel he can match DeRosas average production (so far the data says he can) that saves them about $5M.

 

Not only were they looking to be more LH, but they were looking for a LH impact bat. DeRosa was in the way of that if you made up your mind that Font deserves a fulltime shot. DeRo is not sitting on anyones bench for $5.5.

 

There's no way they try and play Fontenot fulltime, and that doesn't save them $5m, when they replaced him with Miles, who makes $5m over 2 years.

You got evidence to the contrary that Font is not in the everyday plans? DeRo was great, he'll come back to earth but I don't wish that on him. But he wasn't going to sit on the bench making $5.5. He just happened to be the odd man out in the new plan to have Font adding a LH bat everyday - not for 290 AB's.

 

It saves them $3.3 mil this season. When you raised your payroll by $13 mil tha's nothing to sneeze at.

 

I think he's saying that there's no way that they're going to let Fontenot play against most left-handed pitchers. He's a platoon player, and so his limit was somewhere around 450-475 AB's anyway.

There were other ways to find him those additional at-bats. For example, if they had pursued the Fontenot as backup SS idea (which I agree that Fontenot is poor there defensively but so is Miles) they could have had him take Cedeno's 82 at-bats there last season. Cedeno got 4 starts and Patterson 1 at second base against right-handed pitching. Give those 5 starts to Fontenot and you have another 20 AB's.

 

Then you look at at-bats DeRosa got. He started 63 games at other positions. Between Ramirez, Soriano, and Bradley, it's likely that DeRosa could even get more games backing each of them up this year. If he got 80 (45 from Bradley, 20 from Soriano, 15 from Ramirez) that's another 45 AB's for Fontenot (taking out the games where a left-hander would be on the mound).

 

So now Fontenot is near 400 AB's and DeRosa has over 500. Then if you wanted to give Fontenot his full complement of at-bats, you could rest DeRosa a few extra days against right-handed pitching and they each could have around 450 AB's.

 

It wasn't an either or situation. You could have given Fontenot close to as many at-bats as he'll get this season and still have enough AB's for DeRosa to be happy and productive.

[cubsfan26]

The second bradley gets hurt we're going to feel the loss of DeRosa. I was fine with signing Bradley or trading DeRosa, but not both.

 

 

Bradley is replacing Jim Edmonds, last year Edmonds gave us 250 AB's. Bradley even with his history of poor health has still at least given his team 350 plus AB's, four of the last six years. Plus if Bradley only plays in 100 games with 350 AB's, the loss of DeRosa only hurts if Hoffpauir isn't hitting. If you do a Reed in CF, Fukudome in RF vs LH pitching, and Fukudome in CF, and Hoffpauir in RF against RH pitching, with Gathright defense late in the game. The loss isn't as big as people wanna believe it will be. Of course if Hoffpauir isn't hitting, then we will have a problem, but thats when we make a roster move I guess. IMO it will be easier then ever to get players in salary dumps this season.

 

 

And I don't know how you can try to spin it around any other way than Miles replacing DeRosa. That's exactly who he is replacing. There's a reason both moves were made on the same day. All the other moves don't change that Miles was brought in to replace DeRosa. It was going to be one of those 2 guys.

 

Yes he's replacing his roster spot, and can play the same postion. But that doesn't mean he's replacing his role on the team. Last year DeRosa had 272 AB's at 2b, and Cedeno had a 108 AB's at 2b. So thats 180-200 AB's more AB's for Fontenot next year, and 180-200 to Miles at 2b. So really 100-130 AB's or so DeRosa AB's at 2b and 3rd, that Miles is replacing(rest is Cedeno). The rest of DeRosa work was in the outfield, and guys like Hoffpauir, Johnson and Gathright will be taking up those 225-250 AB's. So really a combo of players are replacing DeRosa, not just one player. So like I said before If Hoffpauir is good(and of course Fontenot), there shouldn't really be a downgrade. But this has been debated over and over this offseason, we will just have to wait and see what happens.

[17 Seconds]

The second bradley gets hurt we're going to feel the loss of DeRosa. I was fine with signing Bradley or trading DeRosa, but not both.

 

 

Bradley is replacing Jim Edmonds, last year Edmonds gave us 250 AB's. Bradley even with his history of poor health has still at least given his team 350 plus AB's, four of the last six years. Plus if Bradley only plays in 100 games with 350 AB's, the loss of DeRosa only hurts if Hoffpauir isn't hitting. If you do a Reed in CF, Fukudome in RF vs LH pitching, and Fukudome in CF, and Hoffpauir in RF against RH pitching, with Gathright defense late in the game. The loss isn't as big as people wanna believe it will be. Of course if Hoffpauir isn't hitting, then we will have a problem, but thats when we make a roster move I guess. IMO it will be easier then ever to get players in salary dumps this season.

 

 

And I don't know how you can try to spin it around any other way than Miles replacing DeRosa. That's exactly who he is replacing. There's a reason both moves were made on the same day. All the other moves don't change that Miles was brought in to replace DeRosa. It was going to be one of those 2 guys.

 

Yes he's replacing his roster spot, and can play the same postion. But that doesn't mean he's replacing his role on the team. Last year DeRosa had 272 AB's at 2b, and Cedeno had a 108 AB's at 2b. So thats 180-200 AB's more AB's for Fontenot next year, and 180-200 to Miles at 2b. So really 100-130 AB's or so DeRosa AB's at 2b and 3rd, that Miles is replacing(rest is Cedeno). The rest of DeRosa work was in the outfield, and guys like Hoffpauir, Johnson and Gathright will be taking up those 225-250 AB's. So really a combo of players are replacing what DeRosa, not just one player. So like I said before If Hoffpauir is good, there shouldn't really be a downgrade. But this has been debated over and over this offseason, we will just have to wait and see what happens.

 

I don't see the point of saying stuff like Bradley is replacing Edmonds. This team has had a big makeover so you can't just say "this guy is replacing this guy" and so on and attempt to make sense of it that way. You have to look at how the team is being contructed for this season.

 

I think you've really overestimating the options we have when Bradley gets hurt. All the options seem like really bad ones. Not only do I not trust Hoffpauir to be able to hit enough, but are we really talking about playing him in the outfield? Even if he does hit a little bit he's going to give most of that value right back with his defense. Johnson is awful against RHP so that's not a good option, and as of right now the option of Fukudome against LHP sounds pretty bad also. What other options are there when bradley gets hurt? Gathright? Miles in the outfield? Every option I can think of seems like a singificant downgrade to the DeRosa/Fontenot combination.

 

As for the second part of your post, you're again talking too much about last season. Last season is over. The goal is to put the best team possible on the field this season. Like I said, the rest of the moves don't hinge on the difference between Miles and DeRosa (not talking about money right here). It was one or the other. The rest of the team would have been assembled the same way. So yes, Miles is absolutely replacing DeRosa for THIS year. He traded DeRosa and signed Miles on the same day. If he didn't trade DeRosa, he wouldn't have signed Miles, it's as simple as that. It was one or the other.

 

As for the "we just have to wait and see what happens" line you keep using....this is an internet message board. We're supposed to talk aobut this stuff. You're an equal part of this. They're trying to talk the moves down, and you're trying to talk them up. Obviously nobody knows for sure what will happen. All we can do is say hw we feel about the team right now, and right now I think the DeRosa/Bradley combo was a bad one.

[Mephistopheles]

Milton Bradley IS effectively replacing Edmonds. There is no debate. It's that simple.