Re: XM 175 - Orlando Hudson to the Dodgers....

[Backtobanks]

"He traded DeRosa and signed Miles on the same day. If he didn't trade DeRosa, he wouldn't have signed Miles, it's as simple as that. It was one or the other."

 

Dex, that's not necessarily true. He might signed Miles at a later date (if available) to replace Cedeno. I tend to agree with Cubsfan 26, in that you have to look at all the players that left and all of the players they added to do any kind of comparison. I think the closest you can come to making one-to-one replacement comparisons would be Gathright-Pie and Hoff-Ward because the new players will be used in almost identical situations with the old players.

[17 Seconds]

Milton Bradley IS effectively replacing Edmonds. There is no debate. It's that simple.

 

Okay he's replacing Edmonds for like 10 million more dollars.

 

You're not focusing on the point though. I guess this is you just following through on that promise of following me around and "calling me out" though.

[The Other 15]

They wanted another LH bat in the everyday lineup. Fontenot gets that done. Why is everyone completely discounting the idea that the Cubs want to play Fontenot full time? If they feel he can match DeRosas average production (so far the data says he can) that saves them about $5M.

 

Not only were they looking to be more LH, but they were looking for a LH impact bat. DeRosa was in the way of that if you made up your mind that Font deserves a fulltime shot. DeRo is not sitting on anyones bench for $5.5.

 

There's no way they try and play Fontenot fulltime, and that doesn't save them $5m, when they replaced him with Miles, who makes $5m over 2 years.

You got evidence to the contrary that Font is not in the everyday plans? DeRo was great, he'll come back to earth but I don't wish that on him. But he wasn't going to sit on the bench making $5.5. He just happened to be the odd man out in the new plan to have Font adding a LH bat everyday - not for 290 AB's.

 

It saves them $3.3 mil this season. When you raised your payroll by $13 mil tha's nothing to sneeze at.

 

I think he's saying that there's no way that they're going to let Fontenot play against most left-handed pitchers. He's a platoon player, and so his limit was somewhere around 450-475 AB's anyway.

There were other ways to find him those additional at-bats. For example, if they had pursued the Fontenot as backup SS idea (which I agree that Fontenot is poor there defensively but so is Miles) they could have had him take Cedeno's 82 at-bats there last season. Cedeno got 4 starts and Patterson 1 at second base against right-handed pitching. Give those 5 starts to Fontenot and you have another 20 AB's.

 

Then you look at at-bats DeRosa got. He started 63 games at other positions. Between Ramirez, Soriano, and Bradley, it's likely that DeRosa could even get more games backing each of them up this year. If he got 80 (45 from Bradley, 20 from Soriano, 15 from Ramirez) that's another 45 AB's for Fontenot (taking out the games where a left-hander would be on the mound).

 

So now Fontenot is near 400 AB's and DeRosa has over 500. Then if you wanted to give Fontenot his full complement of at-bats, you could rest DeRosa a few extra days against right-handed pitching and they each could have around 450 AB's.

 

It wasn't an either or situation. You could have given Fontenot close to as many at-bats as he'll get this season and still have enough AB's for DeRosa to be happy and productive.

I think he's saying that there's no way that they're going to let Fontenot play against most left-handed pitchers. He's a platoon player

 

Everything about Font is limited to argue one way or the other so how come you can determine he's no more than a platoon player. Given that, he has been pretty productive vs LH pitcher to assume he'll need to be platooned. Again, judging by the fact that they chose DeRos to use in a payroll saving move, that's more evidence that they think Font can carry his weight vs most LH pitchers.

 

I know everyone is in love with 2009 Mark DeRosa. That's why so much of this offseasosn has been criticized. But by June, when we'll be reminded that that players doesn't exist anymore, we'll see things differently.

[17 Seconds]

"He traded DeRosa and signed Miles on the same day. If he didn't trade DeRosa, he wouldn't have signed Miles, it's as simple as that. It was one or the other."

 

Dex, that's not necessarily true. He might signed Miles at a later date (if available) to replace Cedeno. I tend to agree with Cubsfan 26, in that you have to look at all the players that left and all of the players they added to do any kind of comparison. I think the closest you can come to making one-to-one replacement comparisons would be Gathright-Pie and Hoff-Ward because the new players will be used in almost identical situations with the old players.

 

When your GM signs a 2B/utility man the same exact day he trades away the current 2B/utility man, I think it's fair to assume it was a one on one replacement. Hendry wouldn't pay 5 million dollars to replace the Cedeno role.

 

Weren't there even quotes from hendry that day talking about Miles replacing DeRosa in the versatility department?

[cubsfan26]

Not only do I not trust Hoffpauir to be able to hit enough, but are we really talking about playing him in the outfield? Even if he does hit a little bit he's going to give most of that value right back with his defense

 

Well if you're not sold on Hoffpauir, then it's not a surprise you feel like losing DeRosa was HUGE. As for defense, it's not like DeRosa was a gold glover out there, and we don't know how good or bad he will be out there. Having Gathright defense late in the game will help some.

 

Johnson is awful against RHP so that's not a good option, and as of right now the option of Fukudome against LHP sounds pretty bad also

 

Awful is a strong word, but I would say Johnsons not a good option long term against RH pitching. We also don't know about Fukudome against LHP either. Last year he wasn't that much worse against LH pitching, and when he was hitting well he did just as good against them. Personally I'm expecting a much better Fukudome next year who will do find against LH and RH pitchers.

 

The rest of the team would have been assembled the same way. So yes, Miles is absolutely replacing DeRosa for THIS year. He traded DeRosa and signed Miles on the same day. If he didn't trade DeRosa, he wouldn't have signed Miles, it's as simple as that. It was one or the other.

 

Hey believe whatever you wanna believe. I don't see how Miles getting most likely less of DeRosa AB's, then Fontenot and Hoffpauir, is replacing him but whatever.

 

As for the "we just have to wait and see what happens" line you keep using....this is an internet message board. We're supposed to talk aobut this stuff.

 

I understand that, but some of us get sick of talking about the same thing over and over again. I have said the same thing I wrote today a few months ago, some agree with it, and some don't. Obviously you don't and thats you're opinion and thats fine. But you're also well known on this board for not letting things go, so that was my way of trying to end this discussion. I'm fine just waiting to the season to see that I'm right, there's no need to debate it anymore IMO. Thats why I didn't say anything on this topic for a few days, but gave in today due to being excited about the first spring training game, but that now seems like a mistake.

[17 Seconds]

You're guilty of the same thing though. You've said the "let's just stop talking about it and see what happens" line probably a dozen times in the past month, but you still talk about it just like us. I'm just saying you keep criticizing people for going on and on about the Miles thing and telling them to shut up about it, but you're doing the exact same thing. You're just aruging the other side of it. They're trying to talk the moves down, you're trying to talk them up. Same thing, different sides.

 

Oh, and again, I never said anything about Miles replacing DeRosa's playing time. He's replacing him on the roster, meaning DeRosa isn't there to play RF when Bradley is hurt. Of course Miles isn't going to get as many at-bats as DeRosa would have. That's not what I'm saying.

 

He took his place on the roster.

[CubColtPacer]

They wanted another LH bat in the everyday lineup. Fontenot gets that done. Why is everyone completely discounting the idea that the Cubs want to play Fontenot full time? If they feel he can match DeRosas average production (so far the data says he can) that saves them about $5M.

 

Not only were they looking to be more LH, but they were looking for a LH impact bat. DeRosa was in the way of that if you made up your mind that Font deserves a fulltime shot. DeRo is not sitting on anyones bench for $5.5.

 

There's no way they try and play Fontenot fulltime, and that doesn't save them $5m, when they replaced him with Miles, who makes $5m over 2 years.

You got evidence to the contrary that Font is not in the everyday plans? DeRo was great, he'll come back to earth but I don't wish that on him. But he wasn't going to sit on the bench making $5.5. He just happened to be the odd man out in the new plan to have Font adding a LH bat everyday - not for 290 AB's.

 

It saves them $3.3 mil this season. When you raised your payroll by $13 mil tha's nothing to sneeze at.

 

I think he's saying that there's no way that they're going to let Fontenot play against most left-handed pitchers. He's a platoon player, and so his limit was somewhere around 450-475 AB's anyway.

There were other ways to find him those additional at-bats. For example, if they had pursued the Fontenot as backup SS idea (which I agree that Fontenot is poor there defensively but so is Miles) they could have had him take Cedeno's 82 at-bats there last season. Cedeno got 4 starts and Patterson 1 at second base against right-handed pitching. Give those 5 starts to Fontenot and you have another 20 AB's.

 

Then you look at at-bats DeRosa got. He started 63 games at other positions. Between Ramirez, Soriano, and Bradley, it's likely that DeRosa could even get more games backing each of them up this year. If he got 80 (45 from Bradley, 20 from Soriano, 15 from Ramirez) that's another 45 AB's for Fontenot (taking out the games where a left-hander would be on the mound).

 

So now Fontenot is near 400 AB's and DeRosa has over 500. Then if you wanted to give Fontenot his full complement of at-bats, you could rest DeRosa a few extra days against right-handed pitching and they each could have around 450 AB's.

 

It wasn't an either or situation. You could have given Fontenot close to as many at-bats as he'll get this season and still have enough AB's for DeRosa to be happy and productive.

I think he's saying that there's no way that they're going to let Fontenot play against most left-handed pitchers. He's a platoon player

 

Everything about Font is limited to argue one way or the other so how come you can determine he's no more than a platoon player. Given that, he has been pretty productive vs LH pitcher to assume he'll need to be platooned. Again, judging by the fact that they chose DeRos to use in a payroll saving move, that's more evidence that they think Font can carry his weight vs most LH pitchers.

 

I know everyone is in love with 2009 Mark DeRosa. That's why so much of this offseasosn has been criticized. But by June, when we'll be reminded that that players doesn't exist anymore, we'll see things differently.

 

Fontenot has a .247/.305/.370 career line against left-handed pitching. That's not a productive line. And even that line is propped up by a .346 BABIP. His AAA stats are better, but he has even a further disconnect between his line drive percentage and his BABIP there. He's not really an option to play more than a handful of games against left-handers based on his past.

 

Plus, the Cubs would yank him even in the middle of games last year when a left-handed pitcher came on the mound (remember the 9 run inning the Cubs had where Fontenot hit a home run and then was pinch-hit for that same inning because a left-hander had come in?). They are not likely to suddenly reverse that and trust him against left-handed pitching when they have a right-handed hitter sitting on the bench.

 

I'm not looking for 2008 DeRosa. That guy is likely gone. But 2007 DeRosa is fairly likely and he would have been a very valuable asset to this team. Instead, the team will have to hope that 2-3 players can all work out and fill that role. I certainly hope that will happen, but it's definitely a much bigger question mark than if DeRosa were here.

[17 Seconds]

Also has there been anything mentioned about Hoffpauir ptentially getting spot starts in RF? IIRC, Lou ended the Hoffpauir-in-RF experiment early last season after Hoff got a few starts there. I seem to remember him saying something about it in a postgame after a loss.

[cubsfan26]

When your GM signs a 2B/utility man the same exact day he trades away the current 2B/utility man, I think it's fair to assume it was a one on one replacement. Hendry wouldn't pay 5 million dollars to replace the Cedeno role.

 

Weren't there even quotes from hendry that day talking about Miles replacing DeRosa in the versatility department?

 

 

Miles was brought in to take a part of DeRosa and Cedeno. Overall Fontenot/Hoffpauir are taking more of DeRosa would be AB's though. We traded the everyday guy, promoted the bench guy to starter, and brought in another bench guy. But the fact that DeRosa plays so much outfield, our power hitting corner outfield/1b in Hoffpauir is replacing some of what DeRosa did. Remember DeRosa is just one guy. If he's playing outfield, Fontenot or Cedeno had to play 2b. Those guys combined had over 350 AB's at 2b last year. This year Fontenot and Miles will be at 2b, and Hoffpauir will be taking DeRosa would be outfield bats. You can't say just one player is replacing DeRosa, because he played so many postions. This year a combo of players will be replacing him, and you can't judge how big of a loss it will be. Until you know how a combo of those players do.

 

 

 

Of course Fontenot/Hoffpauir will be getting most of them, but Miles and Johnson will be taking some AB's to. Saying Miles replaced DeRosa, because they both play 2b, and were switched on the same day. Just doesn't tell the whole story of what will happen next year. If Miles gets over 500 AB's and is playing everyday at 2b or in the outfield, then you can say that. But most likely he will be taking 130 AB's of DeRosa, and getting Cedeno other 210 AB's.

[cubsfan26]

Also has there been anything mentioned about Hoffpauir ptentially getting spot starts in RF? IIRC, Lou ended the Hoffpauir-in-RF experiment early last season after Hoff got a few starts there. I seem to remember him saying something about it in a postgame after a loss

 

 

Lou and I believe Jim Hendry both have said Hoffpauir will play 1b and the corner spots. I'm sure he will play a ton out there in during spring training.

[17 Seconds]

When your GM signs a 2B/utility man the same exact day he trades away the current 2B/utility man, I think it's fair to assume it was a one on one replacement. Hendry wouldn't pay 5 million dollars to replace the Cedeno role.

 

Weren't there even quotes from hendry that day talking about Miles replacing DeRosa in the versatility department?

 

 

Miles was brought in to take a part of DeRosa and Cedeno. Overall Fontenot/Hoffpauir are taking more of DeRosa would be AB's though. We traded the everyday guy, promoted the bench guy to starter, and brought in another bench guy. But the fact that DeRosa plays so much outfield, our power hitting corner outfield/1b in Hoffpauir is replacing some of what DeRosa did. Remember DeRosa is just one guy. If he's playing outfield, Fontenot or Cedeno had to play 2b. Those guys combined had over 350 AB's at 2b last year. This year Fontenot and Miles will be at 2b, and Hoffpauir will be taking DeRosa would be outfield bats. You can't say just one player is replacing DeRosa, because he played so many postions. This year a combo of players will be replacing him, and you can't judge how big of a loss it will be. Until you know how a combo of those players do.

 

 

 

Of course Fontenot/Hoffpauir will be getting most of them, but Miles and Johnson will be taking some AB's to. Saying Miles replaced DeRosa, because they both play 2b, and were switched on the same day. Just doesn't tell the whole story of what will happen next year. If Miles gets over 500 AB's and is playing everyday at 2b or in the outfield, then you can say that. But most likely he will be taking 130 AB's of DeRosa, and getting Cedeno other 210 AB's.

 

I'll just copy and paste my post from above since I guess you didn't see it

 

I never said anything about Miles replacing DeRosa's playing time. He's replacing him on the roster, meaning DeRosa isn't there to play RF when Bradley is hurt. Of course Miles isn't going to get as many at-bats as DeRosa would have. That's not what I'm saying.

 

He took his place on the roster.

 

And yeah dude, you keep saying that we don't know what will happen. I get it. Nobody is claiming that any of this is certain. We're talking about what we think, just like you are.

Edited February 26, 2009 by 17 Seconds

[cubsfan26]

You're guilty of the same thing though. You've said the "let's just stop talking about it and see what happens" line probably a dozen times in the past month, but you still talk about it just like us. I'm just saying you keep criticizing people for going on and on about the Miles thing and telling them to shut up about it, but you're doing the exact same thing. You're just aruging the other side of it. They're trying to talk the moves down, you're trying to talk them up. Same thing, different sides.

 

 

I know and I admitted, I did that and it was a mistake for bringing it up. I'll stop talking about this now.