Re: Peavy High on Cubs Wish List

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I don't think you can say they're horrible. They're young. They're inexperienced. But they've got some talent on that team. I think you have to say they have the second best rotation in the division if Harrang and Arroyo can just have avrage seasons and Cueto and Volquez mature as they should. Meanwhile there's some good young bats there too.

 

Maybe not this year, but soon, the Reds are going to have to be dealt with.

 

They've got a whole bunch of guys who can be cheap and average, which is nice for them, but is never going to make them a threat to win the division.

 

By the time Cueto and Volquez are consistently good, Harang and Arroyo won't be anymore. They are already on the wrong side of their primes.

 

Losing Dunn will crush their offense, and I seriously doubt they'll get that kind of bullpen on a yearly basis.

[SouthSideRyan]

Maybe not this year, but soon, the Reds are going to have to be dealt with.

 

Yeah, once Brandon Larson and Wily Mo Pena get some experience that team is going to be a force.

[The Other 15]

I don't think you can say they're horrible. They're young. They're inexperienced. But they've got some talent on that team. I think you have to say they have the second best rotation in the division if Harrang and Arroyo can just have avrage seasons and Cueto and Volquez mature as they should. Meanwhile there's some good young bats there too.

 

Maybe not this year, but soon, the Reds are going to have to be dealt with.

Good try, but "the Reds are horrible" is just too tough of a argument to fight. There is no room for growth from Dickerson, Votto, and a guy named,...what's his name,...Bay Jruce (or something like that). Encarnacion and Phillips should only be seen as dangerous of putting up good seasons if they were traded to the Cardinals. Neither Volquez or Cueto have any room for improvement. Harang has no chance to improve on last season. Cordero and Affeldt are really nothing special in the pen.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I don't think you can say they're horrible. They're young. They're inexperienced. But they've got some talent on that team. I think you have to say they have the second best rotation in the division if Harrang and Arroyo can just have avrage seasons and Cueto and Volquez mature as they should. Meanwhile there's some good young bats there too.

 

Maybe not this year, but soon, the Reds are going to have to be dealt with.

Good try, but "the Reds are horrible" is just too tough of a argument to fight. There is no room for growth from Dickerson, Votto, and a guy named,...what's his name,...Bay Jruce (or something like that). Encarnacion and Phillips should only be seen as dangerous of putting up good seasons if they were traded to the Cardinals. Neither Volquez or Cueto have any room for improvement. Harang has no chance to improve on last season. Cordero and Affeldt are really nothing special in the pen.

 

Votto's as good as he's going to get, which is a decent hitter for a first baseman. Dickerson's minor league numbers translate to extreme averageness. Bruce's ceiling is to replace what they were already getting from Dunn.

 

Volquez and Cueto's improvement will be cancelled out by Harang and Arroyo's decline years. Affeldt is really nothing special, though Cordero is nice to have.

[The Other 15]

Votto's as good as he's going to get, which is a decent hitter for a first baseman. Dickerson's minor league numbers translate to extreme averageness. Bruce's ceiling is to replace what they were already getting from Dunn.

So it has been written.

[The Other 15]

Votto's (age 24)as good as he's going to get, which is a decent hitter for a first baseman. Dickerson's minor league numbers translate to extreme averageness. Bruce's (age 21) ceiling is to replace what they were already getting from Dunn.

So it has been written.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Votto's as good as he's going to get, which is a decent hitter for a first baseman. Dickerson's minor league numbers translate to extreme averageness. Bruce's ceiling is to replace what they were already getting from Dunn.

So it has been written.

 

Well, if all we are going on is "maybe they'll all improve," then what can be said about them that can't be said about any team? Every team has players that "maybe could get better." But when you project what the Reds have, it's nothing special, just a lot of young adequacy.

[The Other 15]

Before this turns into one of these stupid pissing contests that everyone likes to engage in, I'd like to reiterate my original point. If offense is taken, my apologies.

 

The Reds are a team that has room for growth. Of course, they can be horrible again but they have the talent to get much better. They have a couple of good young hitters, ages 21 and 24, both of whom have better ceilings than a one dimensional Dunn. They have a couple of frustratingly tantalizing talents aged 25 and 27, that are capable of putting up very good seasons. They have a couple of young horses in their rotation that could grow into a formidable rotation with just averageness around them. Granted, I'm not all that impressed by Arroyo but Harrang is 30 and coming off of a extremely poor season for a guy with his history. When did 31 and 30 become too old? No, Affeldt is nothing special, but he has the ability to put up a great season and Cordero is a solid end of the rotation.

 

They have a lot of pieces in place that can become a threat if they over perform like the Cardinals did last year. They don't have Pujols or LaRussa or Dunn but they have room to be much better than the current cast in St Louis.

 

That's all.

[jersey cubs fan]

Before this turns into one of these stupid pissing contests that everyone likes to engage in, I'd like to reiterate my original point. If offense is taken, my apologies.

 

The Reds are a team that has room for growth. Of course, they can be horrible again but they have the talent to get much better. They have a couple of good young hitters, ages 21 and 24, both of whom have better ceilings than a one dimensional Dunn. They have a couple of frustratingly tantalizing talents aged 25 and 27, that are capable of putting up very good seasons. They have a couple of young horses in their rotation that could grow into a formidable rotation with just averageness around them. Granted, I'm not all that impressed by Arroyo but Harrang is 30 and coming off of a extremely poor season for a guy with his history. When did 31 and 30 become too old? No, Affeldt is nothing special, but he has the ability to put up a great season and Cordero is a solid end of the rotation.

 

They have a lot of pieces in place that can become a threat if they over perform like the Cardinals did last year. They don't have Pujols or LaRussa or Dunn but they have room to be much better than the current cast in St Louis.

 

That's all.

 

Good try, but "the Reds are horrible" is just too tough of a argument to fight. There is no room for growth from Dickerson, Votto, and a guy named,...what's his name,...Bay Jruce (or something like that). Encarnacion and Phillips should only be seen as dangerous of putting up good seasons if they were traded to the Cardinals. Neither Volquez or Cueto have any room for improvement. Harang has no chance to improve on last season. Cordero and Affeldt are really nothing special in the pen.

 

Your quoting and/or statements are extremely confusing.

[The Other 15]

Votto's as good as he's going to get, which is a decent hitter for a first baseman. Dickerson's minor league numbers translate to extreme averageness. Bruce's ceiling is to replace what they were already getting from Dunn.

So it has been written.

 

Well, if all we are going on is "maybe they'll all improve," then what can be said about them that can't be said about any team? Every team has players that "maybe could get better." But when you project what the Reds have, it's nothing special, just a lot of young adequacy.

If you believe that, that's fine. But there are people that believe a guy (Votto) who in his first major league season, at age 24, put up .297/.368/.506/124 OPS+ is not considered "adequacy".

 

If you don't like Bruce, that's fine, but show be where he doesn't project to being "special".

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Votto's as good as he's going to get, which is a decent hitter for a first baseman. Dickerson's minor league numbers translate to extreme averageness. Bruce's ceiling is to replace what they were already getting from Dunn.

So it has been written.

 

Well, if all we are going on is "maybe they'll all improve," then what can be said about them that can't be said about any team? Every team has players that "maybe could get better." But when you project what the Reds have, it's nothing special, just a lot of young adequacy.

If you believe that, that's fine. But there are people that believe a guy (Votto) who in his first major league season, at age 24, put up .297/.368/.506/124 OPS+ is not considered "adequacy".

 

If you don't like Bruce, that's fine, but show be where he doesn't project to being "special".

 

I said Bruce replaced Dunn, that's pretty special.

 

A 124 OPS from a first baseman is very, very adequate and very nothing special. From a SS it'd be awe-inspiring. From a 1B, it's blah.

[The Other 15]

Before this turns into one of these stupid pissing contests that everyone likes to engage in, I'd like to reiterate my original point. If offense is taken, my apologies.

 

The Reds are a team that has room for growth. Of course, they can be horrible again but they have the talent to get much better. They have a couple of good young hitters, ages 21 and 24, both of whom have better ceilings than a one dimensional Dunn. They have a couple of frustratingly tantalizing talents aged 25 and 27, that are capable of putting up very good seasons. They have a couple of young horses in their rotation that could grow into a formidable rotation with just averageness around them. Granted, I'm not all that impressed by Arroyo but Harrang is 30 and coming off of a extremely poor season for a guy with his history. When did 31 and 30 become too old? No, Affeldt is nothing special, but he has the ability to put up a great season and Cordero is a solid end of the rotation.

 

They have a lot of pieces in place that can become a threat if they over perform like the Cardinals did last year. They don't have Pujols or LaRussa or Dunn but they have room to be much better than the current cast in St Louis.

 

That's all.

 

 

Good try, but "the Reds are horrible" is just too tough of a argument to fight. There is no room for growth from Dickerson, Votto, and a guy named,...what's his name,...Bay Jruce (or something like that). Encarnacion and Phillips should only be seen as dangerous of putting up good seasons if they were traded to the Cardinals. Neither Volquez or Cueto have any room for improvement. Harang has no chance to improve on last season. Cordero and Affeldt are really nothing special in the pen.

 

Your quoting and/or statements are extremely confusing.

Thanks for the input.

[The Other 15]

Votto's as good as he's going to get, which is a decent hitter for a first baseman. Dickerson's minor league numbers translate to extreme averageness. Bruce's ceiling is to replace what they were already getting from Dunn.

So it has been written.

 

Well, if all we are going on is "maybe they'll all improve," then what can be said about them that can't be said about any team? Every team has players that "maybe could get better." But when you project what the Reds have, it's nothing special, just a lot of young adequacy.

If you believe that, that's fine. But there are people that believe a guy (Votto) who in his first major league season, at age 24, put up .297/.368/.506/124 OPS+ is not considered "adequacy".

 

If you don't like Bruce, that's fine, but show be where he doesn't project to being "special".

 

I said Bruce replaced Dunn, that's pretty special.

 

 

 

A 124 OPS from a first baseman is very, very adequate and very nothing special. From a SS it'd be awe-inspiring. From a 1B, it's blah.

In Vottos first season (i hate to have to continue repeating this as if it's not significant), he put up the 8th best OPS among 1B's in the major leagues. He finished 8th among 1B's in OBP and 10th in SLG. I'm sorry, I disagree that that's just "blah" for a 1B.

 

Bruce replaces Dunn? He's 21, and his cieling is much higher than a HR hitter that gets about 120 hits per season. The fact that he can play CF (and the corner spots as well) makes him potentially very special.

Edited January 9, 2009 by The Other 15%

[BigbadB]

They have a couple of young horses in their rotation

 

I find it rather humorous that you used the word "horses" in relation to a team that Dusty Baker manages.

 

That is all. Carry on.

[Blue W]

Girls, girls.....you're both pretty. :-))

 

But seriously, I don't think we're trying to say that "definitely" the Reds are going to be a thorn in our side, just that they have a pretty good young nucleus and that they could be very good if their talent pans out. Yes you can say that about other teams. But, the discussion was about the Reds vis a vis the Cardinals and they're chances to surprise/overachieve. In that sense, what I think I and 15% are saying is that there is a chance the surprise team is the Reds, and that "horrible" might be a bit strong to describe them.

 

Reasonable people can disagree. I certainly will stipulate that the Reds could fall flat on their collective face and finish dead last.

[The Other 15]

Girls, girls.....you're both pretty. :-))

 

But seriously, I don't think we're trying to say that "definitely" the Reds are going to be a thorn in our side, just that they have a pretty good young nucleus and that they could be very good if their talent pans out. Yes you can say that about other teams. But, the discussion was about the Reds vis a vis the Cardinals and they're chances to surprise/overachieve. In that sense, what I think I and 15% are saying is that there is a chance the surprise team is the Reds, and that "horrible" might be a bit strong to describe them.

 

Reasonable people can disagree. I certainly will stipulate that the Reds could fall flat on their collective face and finish dead last.

Nicely done.

[The Other 15]

They have a couple of young horses in their rotation

 

I find it rather humorous that you used the word "horses" in relation to a team that Dusty Baker manages.

 

That is all. Carry on.

One hour and twenty nine minutes until the first Dusty reference follows my dare. I'm a bit surprised.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

We're just reasonably disagreeing, I don't see why people assume that's nasty.

 

My position is that the Reds don't have as much young talent as is popularly thought. They have a couple guys who could be good and a whole lot of guys who are just filler.

[fromthestretch]

Votto's as good as he's going to get, which is a decent hitter for a first baseman. Dickerson's minor league numbers translate to extreme averageness. Bruce's ceiling is to replace what they were already getting from Dunn.

So it has been written.

 

Well, if all we are going on is "maybe they'll all improve," then what can be said about them that can't be said about any team? Every team has players that "maybe could get better." But when you project what the Reds have, it's nothing special, just a lot of young adequacy.

If you believe that, that's fine. But there are people that believe a guy (Votto) who in his first major league season, at age 24, put up .297/.368/.506/124 OPS+ is not considered "adequacy".

 

If you don't like Bruce, that's fine, but show be where he doesn't project to being "special".

 

I said Bruce replaced Dunn, that's pretty special.

 

 

 

A 124 OPS from a first baseman is very, very adequate and very nothing special. From a SS it'd be awe-inspiring. From a 1B, it's blah.

In Vottos first season (i hate to have to continue repeating this as if it's not significant), he put up the 8th best OPS among 1B's in the major leagues.

 

Bruce replaces Dunn? He's 21, and his cieling is much higher than a HR hitter that gets about 120 hits per season. The fact that he can play CF (and the corner spots as well) makes him potentially very special.

 

Bruce will hit for a higher average than Dunn and could very well get his slugging percentage to Dunn's level. However, his OBP will probably be significantly lower than Dunn.

 

Votto is solid. Encarnacion doesn't hurt the offense, but he sure as hell hurts them defensively. Phillips has good power for a middle infielder, but will most likely always have a mediocre or bad OBP.

 

Despite what he showed in limited action last season, Dickerson isn't going to hit for a lot of power. Keppinger is terrible. They'll get no offense from the catcher position. When you consider that they lost their best power and on-base threat from last season and that they were a mediocre offense last year with him, they probably won't be that great offensively this year, even with improvements from Bruce and Votto.

[The Other 15]

We're just reasonably disagreeing, I don't see why people assume that's nasty.

 

My position is that the Reds don't have as much young talent as is popularly thought. They have a couple guys who could be good and a whole lot of guys who are just filler.

I reasonably disagree because I think that they have a nice young nucleus of position players and pitchers that has room to grow. I didn't see it as nasty and hope we could have more conversations about the Reds in the Peavy thread :D .

[Blue W]

We're just reasonably disagreeing, I don't see why people assume that's nasty.

 

My position is that the Reds don't have as much young talent as is popularly thought. They have a couple guys who could be good and a whole lot of guys who are just filler.

 

I didn't think you were being nasty or unreasonable. Just a stock phrase I probably misused. Your point is well taken.

[jersey cubs fan]

Before this turns into one of these stupid pissing contests that everyone likes to engage in, I'd like to reiterate my original point. If offense is taken, my apologies.

 

The Reds are a team that has room for growth. Of course, they can be horrible again but they have the talent to get much better. They have a couple of good young hitters, ages 21 and 24, both of whom have better ceilings than a one dimensional Dunn. They have a couple of frustratingly tantalizing talents aged 25 and 27, that are capable of putting up very good seasons. They have a couple of young horses in their rotation that could grow into a formidable rotation with just averageness around them. Granted, I'm not all that impressed by Arroyo but Harrang is 30 and coming off of a extremely poor season for a guy with his history. When did 31 and 30 become too old? No, Affeldt is nothing special, but he has the ability to put up a great season and Cordero is a solid end of the rotation.

 

They have a lot of pieces in place that can become a threat if they over perform like the Cardinals did last year. They don't have Pujols or LaRussa or Dunn but they have room to be much better than the current cast in St Louis.

 

That's all.

 

 

Good try, but "the Reds are horrible" is just too tough of a argument to fight. There is no room for growth from Dickerson, Votto, and a guy named,...what's his name,...Bay Jruce (or something like that). Encarnacion and Phillips should only be seen as dangerous of putting up good seasons if they were traded to the Cardinals. Neither Volquez or Cueto have any room for improvement. Harang has no chance to improve on last season. Cordero and Affeldt are really nothing special in the pen.

 

Your quoting and/or statements are extremely confusing.

Thanks for the input.

 

Well why are you writing both sides of the story?

[The Other 15]

Votto's as good as he's going to get, which is a decent hitter for a first baseman. Dickerson's minor league numbers translate to extreme averageness. Bruce's ceiling is to replace what they were already getting from Dunn.

So it has been written.

 

Well, if all we are going on is "maybe they'll all improve," then what can be said about them that can't be said about any team? Every team has players that "maybe could get better." But when you project what the Reds have, it's nothing special, just a lot of young adequacy.

If you believe that, that's fine. But there are people that believe a guy (Votto) who in his first major league season, at age 24, put up .297/.368/.506/124 OPS+ is not considered "adequacy".

 

If you don't like Bruce, that's fine, but show be where he doesn't project to being "special".

 

I said Bruce replaced Dunn, that's pretty special.

 

 

 

A 124 OPS from a first baseman is very, very adequate and very nothing special. From a SS it'd be awe-inspiring. From a 1B, it's blah.

In Vottos first season (i hate to have to continue repeating this as if it's not significant), he put up the 8th best OPS among 1B's in the major leagues.

 

Bruce replaces Dunn? He's 21, and his cieling is much higher than a HR hitter that gets about 120 hits per season. The fact that he can play CF (and the corner spots as well) makes him potentially very special.

 

Bruce will hit for a higher average than Dunn and could very well get his slugging percentage to Dunn's level. However, his OBP will probably be significantly lower than Dunn.

 

Votto is solid. Encarnacion doesn't hurt the offense, but he sure as hell hurts them defensively. Phillips has good power for a middle infielder, but will most likely always have a mediocre or bad OBP.

 

Despite what he showed in limited action last season, Dickerson isn't going to hit for a lot of power. Keppinger is terrible. They'll get no offense from the catcher position. When you consider that they lost their best power and on-base threat from last season and that they were a mediocre offense last year with him, they probably won't be that great offensively this year, even with improvements from Bruce and Votto.

Can't say I dsagree with much of this except that i don;t see them missing Dunn as much with Bruces continued improvement. If he does hit for higher average and does approach Dunns SLG, he will be more important despite a lower OBP. Sort of like Soriano to Dunn. Dunn gets 70 more BB's than Sori, but Fons gets 50 more hits. Both have value.

 

The wildcard, as I see it, for the 2009 Reds is weather Cueto and Harang can help Volquez form a tough 1-2-3 rotation. If they do, the loss of Dunn will certainly be greatly minimized.

[The Other 15]

Before this turns into one of these stupid pissing contests that everyone likes to engage in, I'd like to reiterate my original point. If offense is taken, my apologies.

 

The Reds are a team that has room for growth. Of course, they can be horrible again but they have the talent to get much better. They have a couple of good young hitters, ages 21 and 24, both of whom have better ceilings than a one dimensional Dunn. They have a couple of frustratingly tantalizing talents aged 25 and 27, that are capable of putting up very good seasons. They have a couple of young horses in their rotation that could grow into a formidable rotation with just averageness around them. Granted, I'm not all that impressed by Arroyo but Harrang is 30 and coming off of a extremely poor season for a guy with his history. When did 31 and 30 become too old? No, Affeldt is nothing special, but he has the ability to put up a great season and Cordero is a solid end of the rotation.

 

They have a lot of pieces in place that can become a threat if they over perform like the Cardinals did last year. They don't have Pujols or LaRussa or Dunn but they have room to be much better than the current cast in St Louis.

 

That's all.

 

 

 

Good try, but "the Reds are horrible" is just too tough of a argument to fight. There is no room for growth from Dickerson, Votto, and a guy named,...what's his name,...Bay Jruce (or something like that). Encarnacion and Phillips should only be seen as dangerous of putting up good seasons if they were traded to the Cardinals. Neither Volquez or Cueto have any room for improvement. Harang has no chance to improve on last season. Cordero and Affeldt are really nothing special in the pen.

 

Your quoting and/or statements are extremely confusing.

Thanks for the input.

 

Well why are you writing both sides of the story?

Help me out. I don't understand what you mean.

[haubrich91]

The Reds are going to be a pain in a few years. Especially if Bailey lives up to what he's supposed to be.