Roberts still at top of wishlist/ Expected to try for CC

[David]

It does. But his EqA was still higher. *shrug*

[Tyrant]

It does. But his EqA was still higher. *shrug*

 

Making it even tougher, they're both hunky.

[C.C.]

So what the latest on the BR trade? Last I heard it was Cedeno, Pie, Hoff, Hill, and Theriot.

[Warren Brusstar]

If I was running them in the offseason, I'd:

 

1. Do everything in my p$$ow$$er to sign Furcal.

2. Make an offer for Hermida that Florida can't refuse, Pie, Vitters, or anyone else necessary (the window for this team isn't that big given the long-term contracts for players over the age of 30)

 

Furcal

Derosa

Lee

Ramirez

Hermida

Soriano

Soto

Fukudome/Johnson

[Tyrant]

If I was running them in the offseason, I'd:

 

1. Do everything in my p$$ow$$er to sign Furcal.

2. Make an offer for Hermida that Florida can't refuse, Pie, Vitters, or anyone else necessary (the window for this team isn't that big given the long-term contracts for players over the age of 30)

 

Vitters for Hermida?

 

That's nuts.

[Sammy Sofa]

If I was running them in the offseason, I'd:

 

1. Do everything in my p$$ow$$er to sign Furcal.

2. Make an offer for Hermida that Florida can't refuse, Pie, Vitters, or anyone else necessary (the window for this team isn't that big given the long-term contracts for players over the age of 30)

 

Furcal

Derosa

Lee

Ramirez

Hermida

Soriano

Soto

Fukudome/Johnson

 

Batting Soriano lower than #5 seems really silly.

 

Giving DeRosa more AB's over Soriano seems extra special sooper-dooper silly.

[17 Seconds]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

Dusty? Is that you?

 

Soriano and Dunn are not at all alike. They both strike out a lot and that's it. To say there's not much difference is pretty ridiculous.

 

Soriano swings at everything

 

Dunn swings at strikes.

 

Yeah, pretty big difference.

 

Plus Dunn hits for way more power while Soriano hits for better average and is faster.

 

Same player though...totally.

[nilodnayr]

It does. But his EqA was still higher. *shrug*

 

 

wOBA

 

DeRo=371

BRob=357

[17 Seconds]

But more importantly, who is better looking? Roberts has more a boyish charm, but DeRosa has that rugged manly look going when he has a beard.

 

Wait, what?

Edited October 8, 2008 by 17 Seconds

[ChiCubsFan]

If I was running them in the offseason, I'd:

 

1. Do everything in my p$$ow$$er to sign Furcal.

2. Make an offer for Hermida that Florida can't refuse, Pie, Vitters, or anyone else necessary (the window for this team isn't that big given the long-term contracts for players over the age of 30)

 

Furcal

Derosa

Lee

Ramirez

Hermida

Soriano

Soto

Fukudome/Johnson

 

Batting Soriano lower than #5 seems really silly.

 

Giving DeRosa more AB's over Soriano seems extra special sooper-dooper silly.

 

I would go:

Furcal

Lee

Ramirez

Soriano

Soto

Hermida

DeRosa

Fukudome/Johnson

[SweetZombieJesus]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

Dusty? Is that you?

 

Soriano and Dunn are not at all alike. They both strike out a lot and that's it. To say there's not much difference is pretty ridiculous.

 

Soriano swings at everything

 

Dunn swings at strikes.

 

Yeah, pretty big difference.

 

Plus Dunn hits for way more power while Soriano hits for better average and is faster.

 

Same player though...totally.

 

I'm glad you understood what I said thank you. :roll: They are not alike as players but in terms of where they stand on the SABR vs. Tools debate they both stand at about the same spot on the spectrum both are hilariously overrated by the guys on their argument side.

[Sammy Sofa]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

Dusty? Is that you?

 

Soriano and Dunn are not at all alike. They both strike out a lot and that's it. To say there's not much difference is pretty ridiculous.

 

Soriano swings at everything

 

Dunn swings at strikes.

 

Yeah, pretty big difference.

 

Plus Dunn hits for way more power while Soriano hits for better average and is faster.

 

Same player though...totally.

 

I'm glad you understood what I said thank you. :roll: They are not alike as players but in terms of where they stand on the SABR vs. Tools debate they both stand at about the same spot on the spectrum both are hilariously overrated by the guys on their argument side.

 

LULZ

[17 Seconds]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

Dusty? Is that you?

 

Soriano and Dunn are not at all alike. They both strike out a lot and that's it. To say there's not much difference is pretty ridiculous.

 

Soriano swings at everything

 

Dunn swings at strikes.

 

Yeah, pretty big difference.

 

Plus Dunn hits for way more power while Soriano hits for better average and is faster.

 

Same player though...totally.

 

I'm glad you understood what I said thank you. :roll: They are not alike as players but in terms of where they stand on the SABR vs. Tools debate they both stand at about the same spot on the spectrum both are hilariously overrated by the guys on their argument side.

 

I don't think that's true at all. I think people that actually know baseball accurately rate those guys. Of course you'll have the casual fans who are all "omg soriano is an mvp caliber player!" but you can't really pay attention to that. Most baseball people understand what those guys are.... .900 OPS corner outfielders with terrible defense.

[JimSorgi]

How is Dunn overrated? Smart people know he's a great hitter (or slugger, or whatever you want to call it). That's not overrating him, that's just the truth.

[Guest]

VORP:

Roberts 50.6

DeRosa 35.7

 

(BTW, Roberts VORP was higher than anyone on the Cubs)

 

EqA

Roberts .295

DeRosa .291

 

Roberts was a better player than DeRosa (in his career year), as well as younger and only slightly more expensive.

 

I didn't post this to bag on DeRosa, he had a really nice year and I like him as a player and person, but anyone who says that he outperformed Roberts is just wrong.

 

What would DeRosa's VORP be if he only played 2b?

[SouthSideRyan]

I'd agree that Dunn can get overrated in certain circles because they look only at his slash #s and ignore his horrible secondary skills of baserunning and defense.

[Mephistopheles]

dont use the .292 and .296 eqas to compare roberts and derosa. theyre skewing the data in derosas favor. a better comparison is derosas adjusted .296 to roberts .303. Roberts had like 110 more PAs, but thats irrelevant here. on a per out basis roberts outperformed derosa, but by what amounts to 3 or 4 runs over the course of the season. The point isnt that derosa is better than roberts, he isnt, but the upgrade from derosa to roberts is very small and that the resources we used to trade for roberts would be better served utilized elsewhere.

 

and if you say oh well throw derosa in right, well the upgrade from fontenot to roberts isn't any greater.

[Mephistopheles]

What would DeRosa's VORP be if he only played 2b?

 

within 1 run of 45.5.

[gflore34]

Is Brian Roberts the answer? Is he worth what the Cubs will have to give up? I don't know but, I do know the Cubs need someone who consistently gets on base ahead the 3,4,5 spots in order. I don't know who that is however, I do know who it isn't - Alfonso Soriano.

[rawaction]

Is Brian Roberts the answer? Is he worth what the Cubs will have to give up? I don't know but, I do know the Cubs need someone who consistently gets on base ahead the 3,4,5 spots in order. I don't know who that is however, I do know who it isn't - Alfonso Soriano.

 

Ryan Theriot got on base consistently in front of the 3-4-5 spots. Whoever hit at the bottom of the lineup (7-8 spots and Zambrano when he pitched) did also.

 

The Cubs don't need anything offensively. The offense will still be good enough next year to win several games. But that shouldn't stop them from doing something. The goal should be to get better. The key is deciding how to get better and by how much. I personally feel the Cubs can get "more" better than Brian Roberts.

[Tracer Bullet]

dont use the .292 and .296 eqas to compare roberts and derosa. theyre skewing the data in derosas favor. a better comparison is derosas adjusted .296 to roberts .303. Roberts had like 110 more PAs, but thats irrelevant here. on a per out basis roberts outperformed derosa, but by what amounts to 3 or 4 runs over the course of the season. The point isnt that derosa is better than roberts, he isnt, but the upgrade from derosa to roberts is very small and that the resources we used to trade for roberts would be better served utilized elsewhere.

 

and if you say oh well throw derosa in right, well the upgrade from fontenot to roberts isn't any greater.

 

What are your thoughts on wOBA? I admittedly haven't read much on it, but can you give your perception of its value as an evaluation tool?

[Jehrico]

How is Dunn overrated? Smart people know he's a great hitter (or slugger, or whatever you want to call it). That's not overrating him, that's just the truth.

Dunn is overrated. There's alot of people who consider him to be just a small step behind Pujols as an elite hitter, when he's not even close. He is very good, but calling him great is probably stretching it too much. He's slow, he's one of the greatest defensive liabilities in the NL, and I'd put the over/under on his OPS+ next year at 125, which is very good, but not great. Everyone acts like he's a guy who traditionally puts up OPS+s over 150 or higher every year, when his career high OPS+ is 146, his career average is 130, and his 3 year average is about 127. That's very good, that's not great, and it doesn't consider his other liabilities. He's regarded as comparable in value to players like Berkman, Utley, H Ramirez, Chipper Jones, etc. Some people seem to think of him as highly as Manny (not many, but a few) as a hitter, and he's not even close. I think most people think he's a better hitter than Aramis, who has just as good of a 3 year average OPS+ wise (and, ironically, the exact same OPS+ this year). Aramis is comparable offensively, plays a tougher defensive position and is much better at it. Dunn is likely to get at least 15 mil a year this year, which is about what Aramis gets now. He's not worth Aramis money, not with the other holes in his game. I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that he's overrated.

[Jehrico]

I personally feel the Cubs can get "more" better than Brian Roberts.

I don't know about that. You have to give, in order to get. Our ability to give isn't very impressive this year. Our trading chips aren't as attractive as they were 3-4 years ago. So our ability to give and get is going to be based more on $$$ than players we can give up. We don't have much in expiring contracts this year, so that's really going to be based on how much of a payroll bump we get this year.

[pitchcs]

This is mostly hyperbole, but...

 

Wouldn't Adam Dunn pretty much put the Cubs in the same position they are now? He will come over, hit 40 HR's, then go cold when we need him the most in the playoffs.

 

Our lineup and rotation are good enough to get into the playoffs. I am a big fan of upgrading the middle of the diamond with some guys who are athletic and just solid baseball players.

[UMFan83]

This is mostly hyperbole, but...

 

Wouldn't Adam Dunn pretty much put the Cubs in the same position they are now? He will come over, hit 40 HR's, then go cold when we need him the most in the playoffs.

 

Our lineup and rotation are good enough to get into the playoffs. I am a big fan of upgrading the middle of the diamond with some guys who are athletic and just solid baseball players.

 

How do we know Dunn has the "unclutch in the playoffs gene" that is obviously infecting the rest of the clubhouse? Maybe he has an antidote or something that he's never gotten the chance to use because he's been a Red his whole life. Adam Dunn is a mysterious person, and I wouldn't be surprised if he had access to such a serum.