Roberts still at top of wishlist/ Expected to try for CC

[anabiono]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

i do know this much...when fans of other teams watched the reds or the diamondbacks...they cringed when dunn came up to bat...

 

i think that cringe was always a bit nastier than soriano for us

 

dunn in our lineup this year may have really been a huge difference maker for us

[UMFan83]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

i do know this much...when fans of other teams watched the reds or the diamondbacks...they cringed when dunn came up to bat...

 

i think that cringe was always a bit nastier than soriano for us

 

dunn in our lineup this year may have really been a huge difference maker for us

 

I don't have the "Cringe Factor" standings in front of me, but I don't know about that.

[anabiono]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

i do know this much...when fans of other teams watched the reds or the diamondbacks...they cringed when dunn came up to bat...

 

i think that cringe was always a bit nastier than soriano for us

 

dunn in our lineup this year may have really been a huge difference maker for us

 

I don't have the "Cringe Factor" standings in front of me, but I don't know about that.

 

oh jeez, just because i didn't throw out a stat man...sometimes this board is tedious

 

you mean to tell me you would rather pitch to dunn instead of soriano...i would walk dunn to get to soriano personally

[soapy]

man i wish derosa or roberts could play ss. if i was hendry i'd be pretty tempted to take a gamble that one of them could handle it in 2009. particularly considering the theriot doesn't really offer anything defensively anyway.

[jersey cubs fan]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

They are both flawed, but for different reasons. They aren't that similar, and having one on the team should not prevent a team from employing another.

[rchap24]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

i do know this much...when fans of other teams watched the reds or the diamondbacks...they cringed when dunn came up to bat...

 

i think that cringe was always a bit nastier than soriano for us

 

dunn in our lineup this year may have really been a huge difference maker for us

 

I don't have the "Cringe Factor" standings in front of me, but I don't know about that.

 

oh jeez, just because i didn't throw out a stat man...sometimes this board is tedious

 

you mean to tell me you would rather pitch to dunn instead of soriano...i would walk dunn to get to soriano personally

 

I wouldnt want to pitch to either of them especially in certain situations, but I think people would walk Dunn to get to Soriano

[SweetZombieJesus]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

They are both flawed, but for different reasons. They aren't that similar, and having one on the team should not prevent a team from employing another.

 

The both the head of the class when it comes to that side of the spectrum's fans.

 

Soriano is a tools guy dream

 

Dunn is a SABR guys dream

 

both are probably the most overrated players on each side of the respective spectrum.

[Backtobanks]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

i do know this much...when fans of other teams watched the reds or the diamondbacks...they cringed when dunn came up to bat...

 

i think that cringe was always a bit nastier than soriano for us

 

dunn in our lineup this year may have really been a huge difference maker for us

 

I don't have the "Cringe Factor" standings in front of me, but I don't know about that.

 

oh jeez, just because i didn't throw out a stat man...sometimes this board is tedious

 

you mean to tell me you would rather pitch to dunn instead of soriano...i would walk dunn to get to soriano personally

 

I wouldnt want to pitch to either of them especially in certain situations, but I think people would walk Dunn to get to Soriano

 

A good pitcher would strike out both of them. As for walking Dunn to face Soriano, you certainly wouldn't do that when Soriano is in one of his hot streaks. They both have huge talent and gigantic flaws and personally, I think they are both overrated.

[jersey cubs fan]

The both the head of the class when it comes to that side of the spectrum's fans.

 

Soriano is a tools guy dream

 

Dunn is a SABR guys dream

 

both are probably the most overrated players on each side of the respective spectrum.

 

I disagree with how you characterize them. Manny Ramirez or Albert Pujols are much more of a SABR guys dream, if there is one.

[anabiono]

pujols

 

=P~

[UMFan83]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

i do know this much...when fans of other teams watched the reds or the diamondbacks...they cringed when dunn came up to bat...

 

i think that cringe was always a bit nastier than soriano for us

 

dunn in our lineup this year may have really been a huge difference maker for us

 

I don't have the "Cringe Factor" standings in front of me, but I don't know about that.

 

oh jeez, just because i didn't throw out a stat man...sometimes this board is tedious

 

you mean to tell me you would rather pitch to dunn instead of soriano...i would walk dunn to get to soriano personally

 

I'm not ripping you for not using stats, I'm just saying that I'm sure fans of he Reds and Dbacks, having been exposed to the flaws of Dunn, and not exposed to those of Soriano would probably think differently. You have a different perspective on a player once you see him play games for your team. I know fans of the Reds despised him, and even ones that could look beyond his BA and strikeout totals didn't exactly proclaim him a god like people on this board do.

[SweetZombieJesus]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

i do know this much...when fans of other teams watched the reds or the diamondbacks...they cringed when dunn came up to bat...

 

i think that cringe was always a bit nastier than soriano for us

 

dunn in our lineup this year may have really been a huge difference maker for us

 

I don't have the "Cringe Factor" standings in front of me, but I don't know about that.

 

oh jeez, just because i didn't throw out a stat man...sometimes this board is tedious

 

you mean to tell me you would rather pitch to dunn instead of soriano...i would walk dunn to get to soriano personally

 

I'm not ripping you for not using stats, I'm just saying that I'm sure fans of he Reds and Dbacks, having been exposed to the flaws of Dunn, and not exposed to those of Soriano would probably think differently. You have a different perspective on a player once you see him play games for your team. I know fans of the Reds despised him, and even ones that could look beyond his BA and strikeout totals didn't exactly proclaim him a god like people on this board do.

 

*ding*

[JeffH]

The both the head of the class when it comes to that side of the spectrum's fans.

 

Soriano is a tools guy dream

 

Dunn is a SABR guys dream

 

both are probably the most overrated players on each side of the respective spectrum.

 

I disagree with how you characterize them. Manny Ramirez or Albert Pujols are much more of a SABR guys dream, if there is one.

 

To be fair, there are other players who are more of a "tools guy's dream" than Soriano.

[anabiono]

Trade Derrek Lee, Sign Tex. No Adam Dunn, we already have Soriano who strikes out too much we don't need another whiffer.

 

 

Strikeouts are overrated. Dunn is a vastly superior player to Soriano. Not the same player outside of the horrendous strike out rate.

 

There's not much difference IMO.

 

Soriano is Dunn of the tools first guys.

 

Dunn is the Soriano of the SABR guys.

 

Both are really flawed players.

 

i do know this much...when fans of other teams watched the reds or the diamondbacks...they cringed when dunn came up to bat...

 

i think that cringe was always a bit nastier than soriano for us

 

dunn in our lineup this year may have really been a huge difference maker for us

 

I don't have the "Cringe Factor" standings in front of me, but I don't know about that.

 

oh jeez, just because i didn't throw out a stat man...sometimes this board is tedious

 

you mean to tell me you would rather pitch to dunn instead of soriano...i would walk dunn to get to soriano personally

 

I'm not ripping you for not using stats, I'm just saying that I'm sure fans of he Reds and Dbacks, having been exposed to the flaws of Dunn, and not exposed to those of Soriano would probably think differently. You have a different perspective on a player once you see him play games for your team. I know fans of the Reds despised him, and even ones that could look beyond his BA and strikeout totals didn't exactly proclaim him a god like people on this board do.

 

i totally understand because i really am not a huge fan of Dunn...but...damn...he is a perfect fit for the cubs and wrigley...he would probably crack a homer every game at home...i think that is part of the reason he is so appealing

[jersey cubs fan]

The both the head of the class when it comes to that side of the spectrum's fans.

 

Soriano is a tools guy dream

 

Dunn is a SABR guys dream

 

both are probably the most overrated players on each side of the respective spectrum.

 

I disagree with how you characterize them. Manny Ramirez or Albert Pujols are much more of a SABR guys dream, if there is one.

 

To be fair, there are other players who are more of a "tools guy's dream" than Soriano.

 

Yes, especially now that he doesn't run all that well.

[anabiono]

The both the head of the class when it comes to that side of the spectrum's fans.

 

Soriano is a tools guy dream

 

Dunn is a SABR guys dream

 

both are probably the most overrated players on each side of the respective spectrum.

 

I disagree with how you characterize them. Manny Ramirez or Albert Pujols are much more of a SABR guys dream, if there is one.

 

To be fair, there are other players who are more of a "tools guy's dream" than Soriano.

 

Yes, especially now that he doesn't run all that well.

 

don't forget his exceptional fielding skills

[Tyrant]

 

I disagree with how you characterize them. Manny Ramirez or Albert Pujols are much more of a SABR guys dream, if there is one.

 

SABR guys don't dream, because they do not require sleep like most humans. Each night, they are connected to a laptop via USB port, and they charge until the following morning.

[TheDude]

The Cubs will look a lot like the team that just finished this season.

 

and that's exactly the way it should.

 

I would be very happy with this, as long as there was say 1 substantial addition. We need either a star bat that we can count on for the number 3 spot, or else a mindless power bat for the 4 spot and move Ramirez to the 3. I dont think Lee is washed up, but he should be a 5 or 6 hitter, as he always should have been. he had that insane 2005, but other than that, what we got from him this year is more of what he has been throughout his career.

 

I said this last offseason and I still believe it - Lee is a 2-hole at this stage in his career. He is still one of best on the team at working counts. He still gets on base. He's a smart runner. He should be a solid hit-and-run hitter with his ability to spray singles to all fields, which has relevance in the NL on a Piniella managed team (even if it disagrees with anyone's personal philosophy).

 

I want to see Lee move up in the order, not down.

[Jehrico]

Lots going on in this thread.

First, Roberts had a better year than DeRo. However, everyone who said he wouldn't be that big of an upgrade over DeRosa were right. He wasn't that big of an upgrade, and the sweetest package we were rumored to have offered may have been the best non-deal of the season. I would still like to see us get him if the price is right.

Second, Dunn would not be a good signing at all. He's one of the slowest guys in the game, defense is horrible. He's been very good, but not great with the bat over the last three years, as he's put up OPS+s of 114, 136, and 130 (130 is his career OP+ too). He put up an OPS under .900 with most of his ABs coming in Cincy (.901 before the trade), and wouldn't have been in the top 10 in OPS+ in either the AL or NL this year. That's very good, but he's not the elite hitter many make him out to be. He'll cost too much, and I don't see him aging well into his 30s during the last couple years in the inevitable 5 year deal he'll get. I could be wrong, but I don't see him as one of those guys that ages well into their 30s. By the time Lee's deal expires, I'm not confident he could even handle 1B proficiently at all. I'm thinking he'd be Fred McStiff-like at 1B by then, especially without the experience at the position. I don't think that a guy who isn't a sure bet to even break a 130 OPS next year with his other shortcomings is worth the money and years he's sure to get. Then again, maybe he won't get what I think he will (5/90+, Z type of contract).

[Jehrico]

The Cubs will look a lot like the team that just finished this season.

 

and that's exactly the way it should.

 

I would be very happy with this, as long as there was say 1 substantial addition. We need either a star bat that we can count on for the number 3 spot, or else a mindless power bat for the 4 spot and move Ramirez to the 3. I dont think Lee is washed up, but he should be a 5 or 6 hitter, as he always should have been. he had that insane 2005, but other than that, what we got from him this year is more of what he has been throughout his career.

 

I said this last offseason and I still believe it - Lee is a 2-hole at this stage in his career. He is still one of best on the team at working counts. He still gets on base. He's a smart runner. He should be a solid hit-and-run hitter with his ability to spray singles to all fields, which has relevance in the NL on a Piniella managed team (even if it disagrees with anyone's personal philosophy).

 

I want to see Lee move up in the order, not down.

I'd rather he lead off...less chances of hitting into a DP...

[Tyrant]

Lots going on in this thread.

First, Roberts had a better year than DeRo.

 

How do you figure? DeRosa had 30 points of OPS on Roberts. Even if you factor in Roberts' stolen bases, that probably still doesn't make up the difference.

[David]

Lots going on in this thread.

First, Roberts had a better year than DeRo.

 

How do you figure? DeRosa had 30 points of OPS on Roberts. Even if you factor in Roberts' stolen bases, that probably still doesn't make up the difference.

 

 

VORP:

Roberts 50.6

DeRosa 35.7

 

(BTW, Roberts VORP was higher than anyone on the Cubs)

 

EqA

Roberts .295

DeRosa .291

 

Roberts was a better player than DeRosa (in his career year), as well as younger and only slightly more expensive.

 

I didn't post this to bag on DeRosa, he had a really nice year and I like him as a player and person, but anyone who says that he outperformed Roberts is just wrong.

[Jehrico]

Not to pile on against the Dunn love either, but the guy was 96th in the league in VORP, right behind Marlon Byrd, Melvin Mora, Jerry Hairston, and Ryan Theriot. Not that I think VORP is a flawless stat, as Dunn's rating clearly shows here, but it does highlight the fact that many SABR metrics don't include Dunn as one of the elite players in the game, despite the widely-held belief that Dunn is a SABR machine.

[Tyrant]

VORP:

Roberts 50.6

DeRosa 35.7

 

(BTW, Roberts VORP was higher than anyone on the Cubs)

 

EqA

Roberts .295

DeRosa .291

 

Roberts was a better player than DeRosa (in his career year), as well as younger and only slightly more expensive.

 

I didn't post this to bag on DeRosa, he had a really nice year and I like him as a player and person, but anyone who says that he outperformed Roberts is just wrong.

 

Interesting. I forget, does VORP accumulate with more at bats? Roberts had 100 or so more at bats then DeRo did this year.

 

I could be totally wrong here.

[imb]

Lots going on in this thread.

First, Roberts had a better year than DeRo.

 

How do you figure? DeRosa had 30 points of OPS on Roberts. Even if you factor in Roberts' stolen bases, that probably still doesn't make up the difference.

 

 

VORP:

Roberts 50.6

DeRosa 35.7

 

(BTW, Roberts VORP was higher than anyone on the Cubs)

 

EqA

Roberts .295

DeRosa .291

 

Roberts was a better player than DeRosa (in his career year), as well as younger and only slightly more expensive.

 

I didn't post this to bag on DeRosa, he had a really nice year and I like him as a player and person, but anyone who says that he outperformed Roberts is just wrong.

 

roberts had 106 more abs, too