Ryan Theriot

[YearofDaCubs]

I don't understand this blatant disregard for minor league numbers as if they are meaningless. Wow.

 

When taken into account along with age and the league that's being played in, they're an extremely useful way of predicting a player's major league performance. People want to just toss them aside and say, "Tell me what he's done at the major league level." I can't even comprehend it.

Then why are some players considered "AAAA"?

[Abe Frohman]

-I'm not calling you a racist, I'm saying that people's perception of Theriot's ability is affected by his race.

 

I really didn't think you were, but my "defense" of Theriot isn't because I know him or because he's from Louisiana or anything like that. He was absolutely brutal in September and June - and one of the reason I personally liked his play in 2007 was simply because here is a guy who wasn't really that good and didn't have a lot to offer - but he played his ass off to try and stay in the lineup. Mostly a lineup that just the year before played so terrible, and was full of guys who were playing under a questionable manager who didn't care how they performed, they were going to "come around" because they had "been there."

 

The reasons a lot of people like Ryan Theriot is not because of his superior statistics, it is because he plays the game right (I know that is the laughable cliche'). You know damned well what I am talking about with the 2006 crap we had to pay to watch - Dusty Baker giving playing time to Perez, Mabry, Fast Freddy, etc. because he was respekin his vets.

 

He really wasn't bad all of 2007, and I know Cedeno is going to be a good player. I really do hope he gets it all together and starts showing some of that potential.

 

-The other player isn't Cedeno. It's 2005's Neifi Perez. They have just about the same stat line. Think about that for a second. No one called Neifi the 2005 MVP (other than Dusty). No one clamored for Neifi to be the everyday SS.

 

Yikes.

[Geech]

I don't understand this blatant disregard for minor league numbers as if they are meaningless. Wow.

 

When taken into account along with age and the league that's being played in, they're an extremely useful way of predicting a player's major league performance. People want to just toss them aside and say, "Tell me what he's done at the major league level." I can't even comprehend it.

Then why are some players considered "AAAA"?

 

Because people sometimes don't understand baseball.

[SABR Gamer]

Sorry, but Cedeno has done exactly jack when he's had his opportunities. If you guys are ripping on Theriot for his numbers how can you not rip Cedeno's numbers? He was also pretty bad defensively in the majors. OK, so he does good in the winter leagues and the minors, then why is he so damn bad when he is with the Cubs? Until he proves he can hit in the majors,it's Theriot's job to lose unless we trade for an actual SS.

 

Repeat after me: Cedeno was 22 in 2006. Ryan Theriot was 27 in 2007. Do you see how that maybe might be a factor in Cedeno's numbers?

 

I don't understand how people can be this blind to fact.

I don't give a rat's what Cedeno's age is. Until he proves that he's a better player than Theriot, he will be sitting on the bench. I'm sure he has upside, but we haven't seen it yet at the major league level.

 

Cedeno is a much better player than Theriot. Cedeno could pan out to be an above average offensive short stop while I don't see Theriot ever being much more than he is now, a guy who you would love to have as your utility player, even though the perfect guy for that is Mark DeRosa, so Theriot isn't even the best utility player on the team.

 

And not regarding this but I read someone say they don't want DeRosa playing in the outfield because "he is only passable", but unless I am mistaken I recall hearing that OF was his best defensive position and where he is most comfortable playing, not that I want DeRosa as an every day outfielder though.

[CUBZ99]

This is truly idiotic. You keep using Cedeno's 2006 stats-when he was 22-23 years old, and compare them to Theriot's 2007-when he was 27-28 years old, and holding that as evidence that Theriot is better. Despite that every single age even comparison has Cedeno light years better than Theriot.

 

What's idiotic is not being able to comprehend that the reason people keep using Cedeno's 2006 and Theriot's 2007 stats is because those are the ONLY FULL SEASONS THAT EITHER PLAYER HAS TO COMPARE. It's really not that hard to understand or comprehend. We are not talking about the potential of the two players, we are talking about their production.

 

Seriously-people need to get over the Theriot crap. See the below stat lines for a comparison. Which player would you rather have?

 

154 572 59 157 33 1 9 54 8 4 18 47 .274 .298 .383 75

148 537 80 143 30 2 3 45 28 4 49 50 .266 .326 .346 72

 

Who's stats are the top lines? Not Cedeno's.

 

One of these players is universally loathed by everyone here. The other is Theriot. See the similarities?

 

If Theriot wasn't short and white, no one would be putting up this kind of illogical fight.

 

So the animosity is because you think I'm racist or something? I'm not even the ethnicity you are implying!

 

My guess is that many of the people that are saying Cedeno couldn't possibly as be as bad or worse than Neifi Perez(2006), are the same ones saying Cedeno will certainly be better than Theriot.

 

And, Theriot didn't get the SS job last year because he was white or because he was gritty. He got it because when Cedeno and Izturis were struggling he took advantage of his opportunity and had his biggest month of the year. You'll have to excuse me if I don't join in on the Cedeno pity party, because he consistenly blows opportunities that he has been given with the Cubs. In fact, if I remember right, Lou gave Cedeno the first shot to take the SS job from Izturis last year.

 

When Baker gave Cedeno a shot to play in 2006 Cedeno answered with a terrible season and had two ENTIRE months of sub .500 OPS ball. Even during Theriot's worst months this year, he didn't accomplish that feat.

[sneakypower]

I don't understand this blatant disregard for minor league numbers as if they are meaningless. Wow.

 

When taken into account along with age and the league that's being played in, they're an extremely useful way of predicting a player's major league performance. People want to just toss them aside and say, "Tell me what he's done at the major league level." I can't even comprehend it.

 

Felix Pie.

[SABR Gamer]

This is truly idiotic. You keep using Cedeno's 2006 stats-when he was 22-23 years old, and compare them to Theriot's 2007-when he was 27-28 years old, and holding that as evidence that Theriot is better. Despite that every single age even comparison has Cedeno light years better than Theriot.

 

What's idiotic is not being able to comprehend that the reason people keep using Cedeno's 2006 and Theriot's 2007 stats is because those are the ONLY FULL SEASONS THAT EITHER PLAYER HAS TO COMPARE. It's really not that hard to understand or comprehend. We are not talking about the potential of the two players, we are talking about their production.

 

Seriously-people need to get over the Theriot crap. See the below stat lines for a comparison. Which player would you rather have?

 

154 572 59 157 33 1 9 54 8 4 18 47 .274 .298 .383 75

148 537 80 143 30 2 3 45 28 4 49 50 .266 .326 .346 72

 

Who's stats are the top lines? Not Cedeno's.

 

One of these players is universally loathed by everyone here. The other is Theriot. See the similarities?

 

If Theriot wasn't short and white, no one would be putting up this kind of illogical fight.

 

So the animosity is because you think I'm racist or something? I'm not even the ethnicity you are implying!

 

My guess is that many of the people that are saying Cedeno couldn't possibly as be as bad or worse than Neifi Perez(2006), are the same ones saying Cedeno will certainly be better than Theriot.

 

And, Theriot didn't get the SS job last year because he was white or because he was gritty. He got it because when Cedeno and Izturis were struggling he took advantage of his opportunity and had his biggest month of the year. You'll have to excuse me if I don't join in on the Cedeno pity party, because he consistenly blows opportunities that he has been given with the Cubs. In fact, if I remember right, Lou gave Cedeno the first shot to take the SS job from Izturis last year.

 

When Baker gave Cedeno a shot to play in 2006 Cedeno answered with a terrible season and had two ENTIRE months of sub .500 OPS ball. Even during Theriot's worst months this year, he didn't accomplish that feat.

 

Cedeno is what? 5 years younger than Theriot? Put Theriot in the starters roll right out the gate at age 22 and he would get pushed around and demoralized. Cedeno is a much better player.

[USSoccer]

 

The reasons a lot of people like Ryan Theriot is not because of his superior statistics, it is because he plays the game right (I know that is the laughable cliche'). You know damned well what I am talking about with the 2006 crap we had to pay to watch - Dusty Baker giving playing time to Perez, Mabry, Fast Freddy, etc. because he was respekin his vets.

 

-The other player isn't Cedeno. It's 2005's Neifi Perez. They have just about the same stat line. Think about that for a second. No one called Neifi the 2005 MVP (other than Dusty). No one clamored for Neifi to be the everyday SS.

 

Yikes.

 

Yes. Yikes. Do you see what we mean now?

 

I'm not dumb. It's not that I am saying that Theriot doesn't have a place on the team. I'd be very happy with him on the bench. He's league minimum, seems like a good guy to have on the team, and he has his uses. He's just not an everyday player, nor do I think he's the best option on the team.

 

Honestly, if showing you the Neifi comparison doesn't convince you, nothing will. As a starter, he's Bayou Neifi.

[squally1313]

Theriot as a strictly RH hitter

 

AA (Age 25, heinously old): .304/.365/.391/.756

AAA (Age 26): .304/.367/.379/.746

 

 

Cedeno

 

AA (Age 21, appropriate or slightly young): .279/.321/.401/.722

AAA (Age 22): .355/.403/.518/.921

AAA (Age 24): .359/.422/.537/.959

Great minor league numbers. Too bad we haven't seen a hint of that yet in the majors.

 

Yet, by starting Theriot next year, you're basically guaranteeing that you aren't going to see any good numbers from Cedeno next season either. Outside of Ward, there's not a lot of people that put up good numbers getting a start once a week. What are you planning on doing with this 24 shortstop who dominated AAA last year? If you put him back there again, odds are he puts up the same numbers, but obviously minor league numbers aren't good enough to deserve a shot at starting over one of the worst shortstops, statistics wise, in baseball last year. You want to keep him with the Cubs as a backup next year? I'm sure it's a great idea to give our best middle infield prospect 4 at bats a week. He should improve tons backing up Theriot, learning his hustle and grit and 672 OPS. If we're starting Theriot next year, get rid of Cedeno before whatever value he has is destroyed.

[David]

I don't understand this blatant disregard for minor league numbers as if they are meaningless. Wow.

 

When taken into account along with age and the league that's being played in, they're an extremely useful way of predicting a player's major league performance. People want to just toss them aside and say, "Tell me what he's done at the major league level." I can't even comprehend it.

Then why are some players considered "AAAA"?

 

Because people sometimes don't understand baseball.

 

To be fair, there are players whose skill-sets for whatever reason are more conducive to minor league baseball and can never figure it out at the MLB level. We all know this. These are the guys that wind up being labeled AAAA players. These are usually players, however, who tear up AAA and AA at what would be the prime major league years, which is partly why they do so well. Success in AAA or AA at age 27 or 28 doesn't mean a whole lot...right?

 

That said, by and large, great minor league success (with age and league taken into consideration) eventually will translate into major league success.

[Derwood]

i would prefer Pie at SS over Theriot. yes, i'm serious

[David]

I don't understand this blatant disregard for minor league numbers as if they are meaningless. Wow.

 

When taken into account along with age and the league that's being played in, they're an extremely useful way of predicting a player's major league performance. People want to just toss them aside and say, "Tell me what he's done at the major league level." I can't even comprehend it.

 

Felix Pie.

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here...

[SouthSideRyan]

I don't understand this blatant disregard for minor league numbers as if they are meaningless. Wow.

 

When taken into account along with age and the league that's being played in, they're an extremely useful way of predicting a player's major league performance. People want to just toss them aside and say, "Tell me what he's done at the major league level." I can't even comprehend it.

 

Felix Pie.

 

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

[squally1313]

Along that same line of thought, I'm assuming you guys were against Soto being called up at the end of 2007? After all, he put up great numbers in the minors, but he never proved anything in the majors before. Those great minor league numbers just weren't translating...

[SouthSideRyan]

i would prefer Pie at SS over Theriot. yes, i'm serious

 

Pie's a lefty.

[DenverCubs]

Jesus. I rarely post on this site because I usually agree with or at least understand where everyone posting is coming from, but this is ridiculous. If you can't see that Ronny Cedano has the POTENTIAL to be a much better every day SS that Theriot you are insane. No one is arguing that Ronny would definitely be an substantial upgrade, but I would definitely be willing to take a change. Many people have said it but project Cedano's career AAA stats to the Majors he dwarfs Theriot. Compare their age relative stats and it's the same thing. This is not hard to understand. I feel bad for players like Ronny who are brought up too early and under-perform in the big leagues, then never get another regular chance. If you only let him play 5 games before you send him back down again he'd have to get pretty lucky to redeem himself. He had a bad year, improved his game in AAA (where he belonged all along) and he deserves another shot. It's sad that the Cubs devalued him by bringing him up so early that now he's worth less in a trade than he would have been (probably) if he'd never been a big league regular.

Theriot is a below average guy and there's no reason to believe he will get better. I guarantee that Cedano would do a better job for the Cubs than Theriot would next year. I wish we could play two simultaneous seasons to prove this.

[fromthestretch]

I know Cedeno is going to be a good player. I really do hope he gets it all together and starts showing some of that potential.

 

What a lot of people are arguing here is that he needs a chance to play regularly in order to get it all together and start showing that potential at the major league level. Seven starts spread out over the course of the first month of the season doesn't constitute a legitimate chance to show what you're capable of.

 

I'm not really complaining that Lou played the hot hand when Theriot started hitting in mid-April. My concern was that he kept playing him when Theriot stopped hitting about the third week of May followed by an awful June.

 

At some point, you have to give Cedeno a couple months to go out there nearly everyday and show what he is or is not capable of doing.

[SABR Gamer]

I don't understand this blatant disregard for minor league numbers as if they are meaningless. Wow.

 

When taken into account along with age and the league that's being played in, they're an extremely useful way of predicting a player's major league performance. People want to just toss them aside and say, "Tell me what he's done at the major league level." I can't even comprehend it.

 

Felix Pie.

 

Is good, and I think he will be a very good ML player

[Derwood]

the Cubs have shown that they excel at bringing hitting prospects up too early, shattering their confidence with limited playing time, sending them on frequent trips back to AAA, and destroying their trade value. See: Corey Patterson, Kevin Orie....

[Ryno12]

I agree that going forward, Cedeno has much greater potential than Theriot, and Cedeno should get a fair shot at winning the the starting job in S.T. I personally would like to see an upgrade over both, though no such options (aside from Tejada) appear to be availiable.

 

The fact is, Lou believes that Theriot is the right guy at SS right now. So, unless Ronnie can figure it out and take the job from Theriot in S.T. You guys had better prepare yourselves for another year of Theriot.

 

Also, people don't like Theriot because he's short and white, they like him because he has a cool nickname "The Riot". :wink:

[Abe Frohman]

 

Yes. Yikes. Do you see what we mean now?

 

I'm not dumb. It's not that I am saying that Theriot doesn't have a place on the team. I'd be very happy with him on the bench. He's league minimum, seems like a good guy to have on the team, and he has his uses. He's just not an everyday player, nor do I think he's the best option on the team.

 

Honestly, if showing you the Neifi comparison doesn't convince you, nothing will. As a starter, he's Bayou Neifi.

 

I don't really disagree with you, but what are you trying to convince me of?

 

That Cedeno has more potential? Check, I'm with you.

That Theriot isn't a great SS? With you.

That Cedeno should be starting so that he can learn fundamentals? Disagree. Theriot will due until Ronny is ready, or someone better is acquired.

[sneakypower]

I don't understand this blatant disregard for minor league numbers as if they are meaningless. Wow.

 

When taken into account along with age and the league that's being played in, they're an extremely useful way of predicting a player's major league performance. People want to just toss them aside and say, "Tell me what he's done at the major league level." I can't even comprehend it.

 

Felix Pie.

 

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

 

His situation is analogous to Cedeno's, only with far fewer chances to prove himself at the MLB level. He obliterated AAA as a 22 year old, yet people want to ship him out for very little return.

[DenverCubs]

Here's the thing...Cedano is better...right now...today...than Theriot...at baseball...

[SouthSideRyan]

Jesus. I rarely post on this site because I usually agree with or at least understand where everyone posting is coming from, but this is ridiculous. If you can't see that Ronny Cedano has the POTENTIAL to be a much better every day SS that Theriot you are insane. No one is arguing that Ronny would definitely be an substantial upgrade, but I would definitely be willing to take a change. Many people have said it but project Cedano's career AAA stats to the Majors he dwarfs Theriot. Compare their age relative stats and it's the same thing. This is not hard to understand. I feel bad for players like Ronny who are brought up too early and under-perform in the big leagues, then never get another regular chance. If you only let him play 5 games before you send him back down again he'd have to get pretty lucky to redeem himself. He had a bad year, improved his game in AAA (where he belonged all along) and he deserves another shot. It's sad that the Cubs devalued him by bringing him up so early that now he's worth less in a trade than he would have been (probably) if he'd never been a big league regular.

Theriot is a below average guy and there's no reason to believe he will get better. I guarantee that Cedano would do a better job for the Cubs than Theriot would next year. I wish we could play two simultaneous seasons to prove this.

 

Post more.

[Ryno12]

If Cedeno is truly better, then he needs to show up at S.T. and show it. If Theriot outproduces him there, he will be the guy.

 

I'm not advocating for either, but giving the job to Cedeno without having him show that he can hit above AAA is foolish. Make him earn the position, and same with Theriot.