MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[erik316wttn]

Murton and Gallagher for Roberts alone is too much. However, I wouldn't be opposed to shipping both to Baltimore if Bedard was also on his way over.

[David]

Great, we're overpaying in prospects for a guy who has admitted he used steroids, and is a slight upgrade over DeRosa. All because he is a lefty and is fast, it's ridiculous.

 

 

There's a few other things to take into account. Many believe, Meph included, that DeRosa won't repeat the season he had last year next year. I was a big DeRo supporter from the get-go, but it's not like he's a proven entity or a certainty. Of course, the same could be said for Roberts, but I think a lot of people underestimate how good Roberts is.

 

Last year, Roberts had a WARP of 7.1 last year (DeRo's was 4.5, FWIW). That's a fairly big difference.

 

In 2006, Roberts had an off year at 4.2, which is still right in line with what DeRosa did for us last year. In 2005, Roberts had a WARP of 9.4. Maybe he was on steroids that year, who knows?

 

I think what I'm trying to get at is that DeRosa, at his best, is about as good as the baseline of what we can expect from Roberts, while BRob also has the potential to be much more productive.

 

On top of all that, as others have mentioned, DeRosa taking those ABs away from the lesser bench players can wind up being a big factor as well. Hell, who knows, maybe at some point he'll even take the SS job from Theriot (doubtful, though).

[David]

I really don't get why people keep saying that Roberts is only a marginal upgrade.

 

 

DeRo at his best = baseline of what we can expect from Roberts.

[BigbadB]

I'm not following this "marginal upgrade" term.

 

Mark DeRosa is a significant upgrade over Mike Fontenot.

Mark DeRosa is a significant upgrade over Ryan Theriot.

Mark DeRosa is a significant upgrade over any other bench player.

 

Brian Roberts is a marginal upgrade over Mark DeRosa.

 

I have 3 significant upgrades and one marginal. To me, that's significant.

[David]

All that said, I'd still rather keep DeRosa at 2B and get an upgrade at SS.

 

But Roberts is nowhere near what people are making him out to be.

[SouthSideRyan]

Murton's trade value is minimal. The Cubs feel Patterson has minimal value. I like Gallagher a lot, but I could live with this deal. I'd be really pissed if I was Murton and got traded to Baltimore and remained a platoon player.

 

Lou has to have an open mind about DeRosa at SS if this trade goes through.

[UMFan83]

How many PAs can you see DeRosa getting this year if Roberts comes aboard?

 

Lets assume that DeRosa starts 35% of the games. This takes into account Lou trying to get him into the lineup when perfectly healthy, Lou giving his regulars a rest, and DeRosa subbing for an injured player (assuming he can't sub at SS since he would be the starter if he could, he could sub at 1B, 3B, 2B, LF). That means he would start 57 games this year. Assuming he gets 5 PAs in those games, that is 285 PA right there.

 

He will also probably get about 5 PA per week as a PH or a late game substitution (Lou loves his double switch). There are roughly 24 weeks in a season, so that would be 120 additional PAs, meaning that DeRosa would be looking at about 405 PA for the year. Obviously if there are serious injuries, he would see much more time as well. DeRosa had 574 PA last year, so the net effect of this move is DeRosa losing 149 PA this season.

[BigbadB]

Murton's trade value is minimal. The Cubs feel Patterson has minimal value. I like Gallagher a lot, but I could live with this deal. I'd be really pissed if I was Murton and got traded to Baltimore and remained a platoon player.

 

Lou has to have an open mind about DeRosa at SS if this trade goes through.

 

Agreed. I think he will, also. Theriot would make for a decent super sub. DeRosa would become the best option to play SS, ahead of Cedeno.

[RammyFanny]

I'm not following this "marginal upgrade" term.

 

Mark DeRosa is a significant upgrade over Mike Fontenot.

Mark DeRosa is a significant upgrade over Ryan Theriot.

Mark DeRosa is a significant upgrade over any other bench player.

 

Brian Roberts is a marginal upgrade over Mark DeRosa.

 

I have 3 significant upgrades and one marginal. To me, that's significant.

 

+1

[Post Count Padder]

Murton's trade value is minimal. The Cubs feel Patterson has minimal value. I like Gallagher a lot, but I could live with this deal. I'd be really pissed if I was Murton and got traded to Baltimore and remained a platoon player.

 

Lou has to have an open mind about DeRosa at SS if this trade goes through.

I would hope he would. If we acquire no better upgrade at SS, we should have someone (Trammell) work with DeRosa at shortstop during ST and see how well he can handle it.

[BigbadB]

I would hope he would. If we acquire no better upgrade at SS, we should have someone (Trammell) work with DeRosa at shortstop during ST and see how well he can handle it.

 

Exactly. Theriot or Cedeno can be used in a double switch later to improve "D" at short if necessary.

[Burtonbell]

Roberts

Fuku

Lee

ARam

Soriano

DeRosa

Soto

Pie

 

With Murton gone, Ward becomes the primary backup in LF right? Then Fuld in RF/CF. I really liked the idea of Murton playing backup in LF/RF and pinch hitting. Anyone else I am missing for the OF?

[CubColtPacer]

I'm not following this "marginal upgrade" term.

 

Mark DeRosa is a significant upgrade over Mike Fontenot.

Mark DeRosa is a significant upgrade over Ryan Theriot.

Mark DeRosa is a significant upgrade over any other bench player.

 

Brian Roberts is a marginal upgrade over Mark DeRosa.

 

I have 3 significant upgrades and one marginal. To me, that's significant.

 

Agreed. Also add in a few facts:

 

DeRosa has had questions about wearing down when playing everyday both in 2006 and 2007. I remember a lot of people saying that he needed days off in the late July/August stretch when there were some injuries, but the Cubs simply couldn't give them because they needed him on the field too badly. Orioles fans say that Roberts is the same way, that he would have given better production if he could have rested a little more, but the Orioles needed his bat too badly. Now, the Cubs can do both.

 

Roberts has a significant left/right split. If DeRosa plays 2nd against even half the left-handers, Roberts' production goes up.

 

Having another good middle infielder in the mix at least allows them to consider playing DeRosa at SS at least occasionally, which would help.

 

DeRosa had less than half the at-bats at 2nd base last year. In effect, Roberts will likely be replacing somebody else just as much as he is replacing DeRosa.

 

There are other smaller benefits that I won't list because I don't want to make this an essay. Suffice it to say to just compare DeRosa to Roberts and conclude it's a marginal upgrade is not looking at how Lou has and will use DeRosa. When you add in the fact of how Lou will use Murton and Patterson (not very much), and the fact that Gallagher might not have a clear cut spot on this years team, it makes perfect sense to make this upgrade.

[Post Count Padder]

Roberts

Fuku

Lee

ARam

Soriano

DeRosa

Soto

Pie

 

With Murton gone, Ward becomes the primary backup in LF right? Then Fuld in RF/CF. I really liked the idea of Murton playing backup in LF/RF and pinch hitting. Anyone else I am missing for the OF?

FA, or DeRosa on days he's not starting.

[CubColtPacer]

Roberts

Fuku

Lee

ARam

Soriano

DeRosa

Soto

Pie

 

With Murton gone, Ward becomes the primary backup in LF right? Then Fuld in RF/CF. I really liked the idea of Murton playing backup in LF/RF and pinch hitting. Anyone else I am missing for the OF?

 

DeRosa probably becomes the primary backup in left and right with this move. Fuld would be the backup CF.

[BCVM22]

With Murton gone, Ward becomes the primary backup in LF right? Then Fuld in RF/CF. I really liked the idea of Murton playing backup in LF/RF and pinch hitting. Anyone else I am missing for the OF?

 

Angel Pagan.

[rawaction]

With Murton gone, Ward becomes the primary backup in LF right? Then Fuld in RF/CF. I really liked the idea of Murton playing backup in LF/RF and pinch hitting. Anyone else I am missing for the OF?

 

Angel Pagan.

 

 

Edit: No.

[BigbadB]

With Murton gone, Ward becomes the primary backup in LF right? Then Fuld in RF/CF. I really liked the idea of Murton playing backup in LF/RF and pinch hitting. Anyone else I am missing for the OF?

 

Angel Pagan.

 

He could beat out Fuld for the job, but I think it'll be a close race and will likely be decided by who has a better ST.

[Post Count Padder]

With Murton gone, Ward becomes the primary backup in LF right? Then Fuld in RF/CF. I really liked the idea of Murton playing backup in LF/RF and pinch hitting. Anyone else I am missing for the OF?

 

Angel Pagan.

He's gonna be used in a trade for Khalil Greene. :wink:

[rawaction]

With Murton gone, Ward becomes the primary backup in LF right? Then Fuld in RF/CF. I really liked the idea of Murton playing backup in LF/RF and pinch hitting. Anyone else I am missing for the OF?

 

Angel Pagan.

 

He could beat out Fuld for the job, but I think it'll be a close race and will likely be decided by who has a better ST.

 

Fuld is left-handed. Race over.

[BCVM22]

Fuld is left-handed. Race over.

 

Pagan is 1/2 left-handed. That has to count for something, right? :-k

Edited December 19, 2007 by BCVM22

[UMFan83]

With Murton gone, Ward becomes the primary backup in LF right? Then Fuld in RF/CF. I really liked the idea of Murton playing backup in LF/RF and pinch hitting. Anyone else I am missing for the OF?

 

Angel Pagan.

He's gonna be used in a trade for Khalil Greene. :wink:

 

You can't trade Beltran Jr for Greene. We would need Brian Giles and Adrian Gonzalez to come back.

[hankp101]

What is the Orioles 40 man roster situation? Didn't the Tejada trade give them like 3 more 40 man guys? I wonder if there is any chance we would be getting a second player along with Roberts? Edited December 19, 2007 by hankp101

[CubinNY]

Gallagher, Murton and Patterson for Roberts. The Cubs probably had to wait until Fukudome passed the physical. I can not see them announcing a deal today, because this is Fukudome's day in the sun.

 

Hopefully, it will be announced tomorrow, otherwise I bet it would wait until after the holiday.

 

I like the deal, now lets go get a top of the order pitcher!!

I'm fine with the deal b/c Murton and Patterson had no future with the Cubs. Sean hurts, but you have to give up some percieved value for Roberts.

 

I think the Cubs gave too much, but as long as they weren't intending to give a shot to Murton (in LF to start) and playing patterson out of positon (how bad can his defense be?) It really is a good trade for the Cubs.

 

They gave up little (in their eyes) to get a pretty good 2nd baseman.

 

I hope Murton tears it up next year.

[The Voice of Reason]

Murton's trade value is minimal. The Cubs feel Patterson has minimal value. I like Gallagher a lot, but I could live with this deal. I'd be really pissed if I was Murton and got traded to Baltimore and remained a platoon player.

 

Lou has to have an open mind about DeRosa at SS if this trade goes through.

 

Agree with all except I really don't care if Murton's feelings are hurt.

 

IIRC, a lot of people on this board last year questioned whether Theriot could be a major league SS since he played 2b primarily in the minors and hadn't played a lot of SS since college.

 

He did fine at SS as would DeRosa. Make the trade, I'm tired of waiting for Cub prospects to develop.

Edited December 19, 2007 by The Voice of Reason