College Basketball 2007-2008

[SouthSideRyan]

I like the fact that Kramer is an in your face defender though.

 

He is tenacious on defense. He also has teeth that would make Gary Busey jealous.

I really think that E'Twaun Moore will be the type of kid who has a good frosh year then will explode by at least his junior year. That kid is oozing talent.

 

I've been more and more impressed with both Moore and Hummel as the season has gone by. There's no question that Moore is an incredible shooter. I was really high on Martin early in the year, but he's been very inconsistent and can't seem to stay out of foul trouble.

A freshman in the big ten is going to be in foul trouble if they get to play. our refs are easily the worst in america.

 

Not IDKWTI.

 

I don't think Tisdale, Davis, McCamey is that far off as a whole compared to McClain/Bradford. Unless you were talking about ability right now. As far as potential, I think I'll take this year's class(including Legion) over that one. Of course I'm an unabashed optimist. Still.

[Exile on Waveland]

But, the thing is, none of that really matters. One isolated game means very little. Meph was right in all the football threads; one game is a crapshoot. Anomalous results happen nearly every night. Just because UT beat Xavier and West Virginia doesn't mean they're better than either (though I believe they certainly are). UNC lost to Maryland, UCLA to USC. Does that mean rankings that have UNC ahead of Maryland or UCLA ahead of USC are bogus? (Not that you could find a ranking that said otherwise; UNC and UCLA are clearly superior teams.)

 

Oh, and Lofton's shooting slump is completely nebulous and irrelevant-- it may be true, but surely you're not suggesting every player plays to his full potential every game? That's the exact reason one game has very little determinative value.

 

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this point. You see, you and I see things very differently. You actually think that formulas and algorithms are an accurate way to determine which is "the best team". You think that a formula that predicts who might win on a given night, irrespective of actual game conditions, matters. (Same with Meph and several others.) To some people, what happens on the field or court matters less than what a computer model says should happen. What you seemingly care about is the answer to the question "who is the best team?"

 

I think that's a ridiculous question, and pretty irrelevant. There is no sports league that is set up to find out the answer to that question. Instead, they are set up to crown champions. Often, the champion of a league is not "the best". But, it doesn't matter. Champions matter.

 

Now I realize that this seemingly began as a debate over which polls were better, but I sincerely don't really care. It is SSR's opinion that the SEC is "total ass". It is my opinion that he is wrong. He uses a computer that disregards reality (game conditions such as fatigue, home court advantage, etc..) and determines probabilities as a way of ranking teams to support him. I use polls that involve people watching real games, with real conditions, where wins and losses matter. You like his way. I like mine. You agree with people like Meph, who think that wins and losses are essentially arbitrary and meaningless, and that only being "the best team" matters. I believe that winning matters more that who was supposed to win. I believe that Championships mean more than being the best team.

 

In your sterile little sports world, Houston will always be the best basketball team from 1983. In mine, NC State is the National Champion. And, that's okay with me.

 

I believe you not only painted my argument with a broad stroke, but also misrepresented it. I'll try to go point by point.

 

I don't believe "formulas and algorithms" decide every game. Hell, in my previous post, I listed missing players in the IU-UK game. That's an actual game condition right there that refutes your claim. Injuries, homecourt, momentum, timing, etc., all matter. A computer would have told me IU beats UConn; I knew it was a tough matchup and probably not likely. I'm not going to, but I could dig up posts of mine saying players aren't robots, games aren't decided by computers. Ratings are merely a very useful tool, never decisive. And, you know what? Winning is a big factor in those computer polls you disdain. How a team matches up with the other is the single most important factor. Your argument here was a clear strawman.

 

Regarding 1983, I can have my cake and eat it too here. No one actually believes NC State was the best team -- they're called "Cinderella" for a reason. Now, I'm unsure if Houston or Virginia or someone else was the best team, but it wasn't the Wolfpack. They were, however, the National Champions. That's fine. In fact, that's good. It would be boring if the best team won every game and every title. NC State earned and deserved the title by winning the tournament. I'd much rather IU win the National Championship than be the best team. Winning is what matters in the end; but being the best gives you the best chance.

 

I never said winning is wholly arbitrary or irrelevant. Tennessee and Xavier have had similar seasons; if that remains the status quo, UT should always be ranked ahead of Xavier because they beat them. However, again, Maryland beat UNC. I can't imagine you could find a single person -- UMd fans included -- that actually believe the Terps are better than the Heels. Upsets happen, the best team doesn't always win, therefore wins cannot be entirely determinative of who's better. You never responded to my UNC-UMd example, instead you simply strawmanned me with "I care about winning, you care about nerdy numbers."

 

Finally, the human polls are an absolute joke. Trust me, I've known many coaches and writers that vote in these things. The coaches literally, en masse, do not vote. Their assistant coaches, assistant ADs, or, sometimes, even their secretaries do it for them. When they do vote themselves, they generally don't take it seriously. Steve Spurrier infamously votes for Duke in every preseason football poll. Even if they did respect it, coaches rarely watch other games. They obsessively watch game film of opponents and study their own team's play. But they are too busy, and likely burnt out, to watch basketball in their free time much. Media, on the other hand, generally attempt to respect their voting duties. However, besides knowing less about basketball, they also don't see everyone. They see the team they cover a lot, but, again, have families and don't watch a ton of basketball in their off-time. They're busy. Finally, both coaches and writers have biases. Computers don't. All it takes is following the human polls, and breaking down what each voter does, to see the ridiculousness that are human votes. Computer polls aren't perfect, but they're immeasurably better than the alternative.

[CubColtPacer]

I like the fact that Kramer is an in your face defender though.

 

He is tenacious on defense. He also has teeth that would make Gary Busey jealous.

I really think that E'Twaun Moore will be the type of kid who has a good frosh year then will explode by at least his junior year. That kid is oozing talent.

 

I've been more and more impressed with both Moore and Hummel as the season has gone by. There's no question that Moore is an incredible shooter. I was really high on Martin early in the year, but he's been very inconsistent and can't seem to stay out of foul trouble.

A freshman in the big ten is going to be in foul trouble if they get to play. our refs are easily the worst in america.

 

Not IDKWTI.

 

I don't think Tisdale, Davis, McCamey is that far off as a whole compared to McClain/Bradford. Unless you were talking about ability right now. As far as potential, I think I'll take this year's class(including Legion) over that one. Of course I'm an unabashed optimist. Still.

 

Gordon got 3 fouls in the first half in both the Michigan and Minnesota games (2 in the first 2 1/2 minutes against Minnesota) and 2 in the first half of the Iowa game. He's been in foul trouble a lot more since Big 10 conference play started then he was in non-conference play, and he certainly hasn't been immune to calling touch fouls on freshman phenomenon that is rampant in the Big 10.

[SouthSideRyan]

I was mainly joking.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I've only seen one Purdue game this year, so admittedly this is likely a terrible sample for a young and inconsistent team, but I'm surprised how much people like them. They flat out could not score in the half court when they came to Columbia. They do play very aggressive defense though.

[Exile on Waveland]

I've only seen one Purdue game this year, so admittedly this is likely a terrible sample for a young and inconsistent team, but I'm surprised how much people like them. They flat out could not score in the half court when they came to Columbia. They do play very aggressive defense though.

 

They're improving quite a bit. I don't think they're great and the post saying they're the best in the Big Ten is laughable (though if Wisconsin beats IU tonight, Purdue will be in first). However, Purdue has beaten Wisconsin, Ohio State and Louisville (though that was when the Cards were still missing a plethora of players). They've also been competitive in three-point losses at Michigan State and Clemson. They have bad losses like Wofford and Iowa State, though. They're young, so that's expected. They are pretty talented and play very hard and well together.

[soapy]

IU @ Wisconsin tonight. Gordon supposedly playing with the bad (left) wrist. It will be a tough game and I'm looking for a hell of a lot more than I saw from them Saturday. I won't hold my breath...

[brinoch]

I think Purdue is a solid team, and well-coached. It's taken them a little while to gel, but they are coming along very nicely. They are also very underrated and underestimated.

[brinoch]

I truly believe the Purdue fan-base and (in particular) their radio announcers are the whiniest fans in the Big Ten.

 

Don't lump the fans in with Larry Clisby and the rest of the awful radio crew. But hey, it's nice to know that I'm whiny.

 

Look, you're whining already!! :lol: j/k

 

In all seriousness, Purdue fans aren't any worse than any other fan base. Their radio crew, however, is a different story.

[fromthestretch]

I truly believe the Purdue fan-base and (in particular) their radio announcers are the whiniest fans in the Big Ten.

 

Don't lump the fans in with Larry Clisby and the rest of the awful radio crew. But hey, it's nice to know that I'm whiny.

 

Look, you're whining already!! :lol: j/k

 

In all seriousness, Purdue fans aren't any worse than any other fan base. Their radio crew, however, is a different story.

 

Clisby can be pretty bad. He's been doing the broadcasts for as long as I can remember, so I've unfortunately gotten used to the poor quality of the broadcasts over the years. I was hoping they'd push him aside and give the job to Mark Johnson back in the late '90s, but they didn't. Instead, Johnson got sick of waiting and went on to do Illinois State basketball and football play-by-play for a few years, then Syracuse play-by-play, and now I think he's in Colorado somewhere. I think they keep Clisby around because they know if they got someone really good in there, that person might bolt for something bigger and better in a few years, which probably would have happened with Johnson. They know Clisby isn't going to get anything better.

 

ETA: I should also add that Gene Keady liked Clisby, so that certainly helped keep him around.

[Exile on Waveland]

IU @ Wisconsin tonight. Gordon supposedly playing with the bad (left) wrist. It will be a tough game and I'm looking for a hell of a lot more than I saw from them Saturday. I won't hold my breath...

 

If Gordon is healthy, IU will at the very least have a chance to win the game in the closing minutes. I believe they'll win if Gordon is close to full capability. The Hoosiers match up very well with Wisconsin.

 

Wisconsin is obviously tough at home and they have the best coach in the Big Ten. However, the Badgers don't have penetrating guards that give IU problems. And, while they are big, they are not athletic inside or equipped with the defensive presence of UConn. Dependent on Gordon -- I'm assuming/hoping a bruised left hand won't be too much of a hindrance -- IU is far more athletic, has a much better backcourt and the Badgers shouldn't have an answer for D.J. White. The one team to win in Madison this year was Marquette, a small, athletic, perimeter oriented team.

[Handlebar McSkullet]

SO HOW BOUT THIS FOR SCHOOL PRIDE!!!

I am going to the Wisconsin-Milwaukee game against Detroit Mercy in Detroit. I am missing Lost and the start of the Badgers-Hoosiers game.

Also UDM is in the "heart" of Detroit. So imagine that gorgeous part of the USA.

[Warpticon]

what a frustrating season. Arkansas ran Mississippi State off the court Wednesday. Now they play ranked teams for four straight games (Florida, Ole Miss, Tennessee, and then MSU again on the road). Fun.

[Andy]

ND escapes Providence 81-74 in overtime. Friars crashed the boards like crazy and that was the reason they were in it. Thank the lord for that scrub missing 8 straight free throws at the end of the game.

 

31 and 14 for Luke. 32 straight at home for Notre Dame. 15-4, 5-2.

[Exile on Waveland]

Mike Davis and his Indiana Hoosiers go down in Madison to Wisconsin. IU has now lost to the three best teams they've played. I liked Davis better when he was just a terrible coach, not a cheater.

[CubColtPacer]

I'm very torn on the IU-Wisconsin game. I was hopeful for this game, but I had this as the absolute most certain loss from the beginning of the season. At the same time, I'm very frustrated at how they played for most of the night.

 

IU's going to be a very hard team to project come tournament time. If Gordon is hitting the outside shot early, nobody can guard him and IU is incredibly dangerous. If he's not, they'll be lucky to make the Sweet 16, and could have trouble in the 1st round depending on what seed they get.

 

IU needs to learn and grow from these last 2 games, but I'm not sure they'll ever shake the inconsistency. They just don't have that 3rd scorer they can reliably count on, and I doubt at this point of the season that the 3rd scorer will magically show up.

[Exile on Waveland]

I'm very torn on the IU-Wisconsin game. I was hopeful for this game, but I had this as the absolute most certain loss from the beginning of the season. At the same time, I'm very frustrated at how they played for most of the night.

 

IU's going to be a very hard team to project come tournament time. If Gordon is hitting the outside shot early, nobody can guard him and IU is incredibly dangerous. If he's not, they'll be lucky to make the Sweet 16, and could have trouble in the 1st round depending on what seed they get.

 

IU needs to learn and grow from these last 2 games, but I'm not sure they'll ever shake the inconsistency. They just don't have that 3rd scorer they can reliably count on, and I doubt at this point of the season that the 3rd scorer will magically show up.

 

I agree with pretty much all of this. However, I don't think the 3rd scorer is a huge problem. The problem, at least personnel-wise, lies at the PF position next to D.J. The Stemler-Thomas-Mike White triumvirate is an absolute zero.

[Sweep The Leg Johnny]

Great win for Wisconsin. Great team defense and awesome efforts by Hughes and Krabbenhoft.

 

Gordon looked limited at times with his injury, but I'm not sure the outcome would of been much different if he was healthy. Badgers really limited his shot selection. Obviously I expect a much different Gordon in Indiana.

[CubColtPacer]

I'm very torn on the IU-Wisconsin game. I was hopeful for this game, but I had this as the absolute most certain loss from the beginning of the season. At the same time, I'm very frustrated at how they played for most of the night.

 

IU's going to be a very hard team to project come tournament time. If Gordon is hitting the outside shot early, nobody can guard him and IU is incredibly dangerous. If he's not, they'll be lucky to make the Sweet 16, and could have trouble in the 1st round depending on what seed they get.

 

IU needs to learn and grow from these last 2 games, but I'm not sure they'll ever shake the inconsistency. They just don't have that 3rd scorer they can reliably count on, and I doubt at this point of the season that the 3rd scorer will magically show up.

 

I agree with pretty much all of this. However, I don't think the 3rd scorer is a huge problem. The problem, at least personnel-wise, lies at the PF position next to D.J. The Stemler-Thomas-Mike White triumvirate is an absolute zero.

 

I definitely agree with that. Those 3 haven't played much offense or defense lately. I was screaming for them to get Mike White out of the game early, as they were just exploiting him time after time. Stemler was a little better, but he got dominated on the boards way too easily and couldn't hit more than 1 open 3 pointer out of the few he took.

 

You're right that those 3 are probably the main problem. Teams can collapse on any Gordon drive because they know that Mike White may not catch the pass, and if he does he probably can't hit a layup.

[Exile on Waveland]

I'm very torn on the IU-Wisconsin game. I was hopeful for this game, but I had this as the absolute most certain loss from the beginning of the season. At the same time, I'm very frustrated at how they played for most of the night.

 

IU's going to be a very hard team to project come tournament time. If Gordon is hitting the outside shot early, nobody can guard him and IU is incredibly dangerous. If he's not, they'll be lucky to make the Sweet 16, and could have trouble in the 1st round depending on what seed they get.

 

IU needs to learn and grow from these last 2 games, but I'm not sure they'll ever shake the inconsistency. They just don't have that 3rd scorer they can reliably count on, and I doubt at this point of the season that the 3rd scorer will magically show up.

 

I agree with pretty much all of this. However, I don't think the 3rd scorer is a huge problem. The problem, at least personnel-wise, lies at the PF position next to D.J. The Stemler-Thomas-Mike White triumvirate is an absolute zero.

 

I definitely agree with that. Those 3 haven't played much offense or defense lately. I was screaming for them to get Mike White out of the game early, as they were just exploiting him time after time. Stemler was a little better, but he got dominated on the boards way too easily and couldn't hit more than 1 open 3 pointer out of the few he took.

 

You're right that those 3 are probably the main problem. Teams can collapse on any Gordon drive because they know that Mike White may not catch the pass, and if he does he probably can't hit a layup.

 

I really believe that Gordon would be averaging at least another assist per game if Mike White could make easy, open layups.

 

Oh, and to the Badger fan, I agree. A fully healthy Gordon wouldn't have been enough to make up the 13-point difference (considering he did score 16 anyway). IU only had two players show up and Gordon was one of them, at least in the second half.

 

PS I love Bo Ryan. Best coach in the Big Ten, bar none. One of the best in the nation.

[Guest]

Cal beat Washington State 69-64 IN Pullman. :shock: Stanford beat Washington in Seattle and Arizona is about to beat USC in LA.

 

UCLA blew away the slumping Arizona St., 84-51. Time for my College Gameday on Saturday morning with Arizona at UCLA.

[Handlebar McSkullet]

I hate Indiana..

 

Eric Gordon is amazing. I am impressed.

[Flames24Rulz]

Cal beat Washington State 69-64 IN Pullman. :shock: Stanford beat Washington in Seattle and Arizona is about to beat USC in LA.

 

UCLA blew away the slumping Arizona St., 84-51. Time for my College Gameday on Saturday morning with Arizona at UCLA.

 

Heh...it starts at 8 your time on Saturday morning. Good luck :lol:

 

It was hell getting up for it, but it was worth it.

[tadowdaddy]

I was very lucky to be able to be at that game last night. It was by FAR the loudest I'd ever heard a college basketball game. Totally worth the price of the tickets! Hopefully we'll start the Big 12 6-0 after this coming Saturday's game at Mizzou.

[Butterscup1679666578]

I was very lucky to be able to be at that game last night. It was by FAR the loudest I'd ever heard a college basketball game. Totally worth the price of the tickets! Hopefully we'll start the Big 12 6-0 after this coming Saturday's game at Mizzou.

 

That building looked like it was rockin'. What an atmosphere.

 

You should beat us by at least 80 on Saturday.