Pie is number 17, oh no!!

[Handlebar McSkullet]

What is the definition of Hall of Fame?

 

If Gary Carter (.262/.335/.439) and Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.367) are HOFers, then Mark Grace (.303/.383/.442), compare to those numbers, would be a LOCK for the HOF. And yes, I am in favor of stripping Mazeroski of his HOF title, seeing as HE ISN'T A HOFer. And yes, I don't think Grace is a HOF, but if you used the measuring stick to allow Mazeroski and Carter in, then Grace is a HOF.

 

With that said, if baseball wants to continue to induct not even average players in the Hall, then they need to create a special group that belongs ONLY to the elite of the HOF, ie Aaron/Ruth/Gehrig/Gibson, etc,etc. Cause there is no way Bill Mazeroski/Gary Carter are the same caliber HOFer as Ruth/Aaron/Cobb/Gehrig, etc, etc.

 

The first ballot HOF is generally the division.

Edited December 22, 2006 by Handlebar McSkullet

[SouthSideRyan]

What is the definition of Hall of Fame?

 

If Gary Carter (.262/.335/.439) and Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.367) are HOFers, then Mark Grace (.303/.383/.442), compare to those numbers, would be a LOCK for the HOF. And yes, I am in favor of stripping Mazeroski of his HOF title, seeing as HE ISN'T A HOFer. And yes, I don't think Grace is a HOF, but if you used the measuring stick to allow Mazeroski and Carter in, then Grace is a HOF.

 

Didn't Gary Carter and Mazeroski play defense?

[Shilzzz]

I know I'm not supposed to be here. But ### damnit people, is this a PIE thread or a mark grace thread? Maybe we can change the name of the topic, or get back on topic?

 

FIRE AND INTENSITY!!!

[Rob]

What is the definition of Hall of Fame?

 

If Gary Carter (.262/.335/.439) and Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.367) are HOFers, then Mark Grace (.303/.383/.442), compare to those numbers, would be a LOCK for the HOF. And yes, I am in favor of stripping Mazeroski of his HOF title, seeing as HE ISN'T A HOFer. And yes, I don't think Grace is a HOF, but if you used the measuring stick to allow Mazeroski and Carter in, then Grace is a HOF.

 

Didn't Gary Carter and Mazeroski play defense?

 

Mazeroski is an all-time great defender.

 

For their careers, Carter and Grace were worth about the same compared to league average at their positions... granted that catcher is a whole different beast than first base, though. I guess what I'm tyring to say is that Grace was no slouch with the glove either.

 

Some interesting WARP3 scores for Cubs players...

 

Anson - 159.5

Banks - 127.4

Jenkins - 124.2

Williams - 117.0

Santo - 116.7

Ryno - 112.9

Dawson - 109.5

Hartnett - 109.3

Sosa - 102.9

Grace - 96.5

Tinker - 78.0

Three-Finger Brown - 70.5

Evers - 68.3

Cavarretta - 65.1

Chance - 62.2

Hack Wilson - 60.4

Hippo Vaughn - 59.1

 

Grace is a lot closer to HOF worthy than people realize.

[BigbadB]

Does WARP take into consideration the era that these people played?

[Backtobanks]

What is the definition of Hall of Fame?

 

If Gary Carter (.262/.335/.439) and Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.367) are HOFers, then Mark Grace (.303/.383/.442), compare to those numbers, would be a LOCK for the HOF. And yes, I am in favor of stripping Mazeroski of his HOF title, seeing as HE ISN'T A HOFer. And yes, I don't think Grace is a HOF, but if you used the measuring stick to allow Mazeroski and Carter in, then Grace is a HOF.

 

Didn't Gary Carter and Mazeroski play defense?

 

A defensive 1B with little power will never make the HOF. Unfortunately, certain positions (2B, SS, etc.) are considered defensive positions whereas other positions (1B, OF, etc.) are not only considered offensive positions, but offensive with power positions. Unless you are someone like Tony Gwynn with 3000+ hits, you need to show some muscle.

[Handlebar McSkullet]

What is the definition of Hall of Fame?

 

If Gary Carter (.262/.335/.439) and Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.367) are HOFers, then Mark Grace (.303/.383/.442), compare to those numbers, would be a LOCK for the HOF. And yes, I am in favor of stripping Mazeroski of his HOF title, seeing as HE ISN'T A HOFer. And yes, I don't think Grace is a HOF, but if you used the measuring stick to allow Mazeroski and Carter in, then Grace is a HOF.

 

Didn't Gary Carter and Mazeroski play defense?

 

A defensive 1B with little power will never make the HOF. Unfortunately, certain positions (2B, SS, etc.) are considered defensive positions whereas other positions (1B, OF, etc.) are not only considered offensive positions, but offensive with power positions. Unless you are someone like Tony Gwynn with 3000+ hits, you need to show some muscle.

 

I agree with you, it just stinks that the automatic assumption is that if you didnt hit for power, you were a defensive player. With that said, If the writers werent enamored with JT Snow, I think grace would be a stronger HOF candidate, because he would have more gold gloves

[Rob]

Does WARP take into consideration the era that these people played?

 

WARP3 does, yes.

[Roast]

 

I dont see the big deal about wearing 17. Its not in the same league as 26,14,10,21, and 31.

 

 

Ahem

 

http://media.theinsiders.com/Media/MLB/56419_Sandberg012504.JPG

 

D'OH!

[shnsajax]

I dont think Grace is a HOF'er. A fan favorite, yes. A HOF'er (or even close), No.

 

I dont see the big deal about wearing 17. Its not in the same league as 26,14,10,21, and 31.

 

EDIT: I just looked at his numbers and I retract my previous statement about him not being HOF material. .303/.383/.825 career line? wow.

 

IIRC, Grace had more hits in the 90's than any other player in the game during that period.

 

I could be wrong, though.

 

He also led the league in slumpbusting.

 

See, going into a slump isn't all that bad. He needed 3,000 hits to have any chance IMO. He should go into the Cubs HOF and even the Dbacks just for one hit alone.

[Jehrico]

I dont think Grace is a HOF'er. A fan favorite, yes. A HOF'er (or even close), No.

 

I dont see the big deal about wearing 17. Its not in the same league as 26,14,10,21, and 31.

 

EDIT: I just looked at his numbers and I retract my previous statement about him not being HOF material. .303/.383/.825 career line? wow.

 

IIRC, Grace had more hits in the 90's than any other player in the game during that period.

 

I could be wrong, though.

 

He also led the league in slumpbusting.

 

See, going into a slump isn't all that bad. He needed 3,000 hits to have any chance IMO. He should go into the Cubs HOF and even the Dbacks just for one hit alone.

I don't think he'll get in, but if you compare his stats to Kirby Puckett, you'd think there's a glimmer of a hope. The big difference is Puckett got a ring, and for some stupid reason, that's a big discriminator.

[Derwood]

I dont think Grace is a HOF'er. A fan favorite, yes. A HOF'er (or even close), No.

 

I dont see the big deal about wearing 17. Its not in the same league as 26,14,10,21, and 31.

 

EDIT: I just looked at his numbers and I retract my previous statement about him not being HOF material. .303/.383/.825 career line? wow.

 

IIRC, Grace had more hits in the 90's than any other player in the game during that period.

 

I could be wrong, though.

 

He also led the league in slumpbusting.

 

See, going into a slump isn't all that bad. He needed 3,000 hits to have any chance IMO. He should go into the Cubs HOF and even the Dbacks just for one hit alone.

I don't think he'll get in, but if you compare his stats to Kirby Puckett, you'd think there's a glimmer of a hope. The big difference is Puckett got a ring, and for some stupid reason, that's a big discriminator.

 

he also died early, thus "human interest" points.

[NCCubFan]

I don't think he'll get in, but if you compare his stats to Kirby Puckett, you'd think there's a glimmer of a hope. The big difference is Puckett got a ring, and for some stupid reason, that's a big discriminator.

 

he also died early, thus "human interest" points.

That wasn't a factor. His election to the Hall was five years before he died.

[Derwood]

I don't think he'll get in, but if you compare his stats to Kirby Puckett, you'd think there's a glimmer of a hope. The big difference is Puckett got a ring, and for some stupid reason, that's a big discriminator.

 

he also died early, thus "human interest" points.

That wasn't a factor. His election to the Hall was five years before he died.

 

stop confusing my wild allegations with facts

[Peoriaman]

Grace was much better than a nice hitter. He was also a terrific defensive player.

[Backtobanks]

I dont think Grace is a HOF'er. A fan favorite, yes. A HOF'er (or even close), No.

 

I dont see the big deal about wearing 17. Its not in the same league as 26,14,10,21, and 31.

 

EDIT: I just looked at his numbers and I retract my previous statement about him not being HOF material. .303/.383/.825 career line? wow.

 

IIRC, Grace had more hits in the 90's than any other player in the game during that period.

 

I could be wrong, though.

 

He also led the league in slumpbusting.

 

See, going into a slump isn't all that bad. He needed 3,000 hits to have any chance IMO. He should go into the Cubs HOF and even the Dbacks just for one hit alone.

I don't think he'll get in, but if you compare his stats to Kirby Puckett, you'd think there's a glimmer of a hope. The big difference is Puckett got a ring, and for some stupid reason, that's a big discriminator.

 

Puckett was the face of the franchise and the city. Grace was a crowd favorite, but never the star of the team. Also, I would imagine Puckett was way ahead of Grace with all-star appearances and MVP voting.

[CubinNY]

If Grace played in a different era he might have a chance. Don Mattingly and Grace are similar players and neither will make the HOF.

[rocket]

If Grace played in a different era he might have a chance. Don Mattingly and Grace are similar players and neither will make the HOF.

 

add john olerud, keith hernandez, and will clark to that list too. all first-baseman with excellent hitting skills, very good patience, but mediocre power, and shoe-ins for the HOF if they played middle infield.

[LeftCoastCubFan]

Players who have worn #17

 

Lon Warneke(1932), Guy Bush(1933-34), Charlie Root(1935-41), Hi Bithorn(1942), Russ Meers(1946), Hank Schnez(1946-47), Jess Dobernic(1948-49), Warren Hacker(1948-49), Bob Rush(1949-57), Frank Ernaga (1958), Al Dark(1958-59), Don Zimmer(1960-61), Steve Boros (1963), Joey Amalfitano(1964-66), Jose Arcia(1968), Terry Hughes(1970), Frank Coggins(1972), Dave Rosello(1972,1975-77), Dave LaRoche (1973-74), Ed Putman(1978), Kurt Seibert(1979), Jesus Figueroa(1980), Joe Strain(1981), Bump Wills(1982), Jay Loviglio(1983), Dan Rohn(1983-84), Mike Brumley(1987), Mark Grace (1988-2000), Bobby Hill(2002-03), Calvin Murray(2004), Adam Greenberg(2005), John Mabry(2006)

 

http://ignarski.tripod.com/temprost.html#no17

[WrigleyField 22]

Players who have worn #17

 

Lon Warneke(1932), Guy Bush(1933-34), Charlie Root(1935-41), Hi Bithorn(1942), Russ Meers(1946), Hank Schnez(1946-47), Jess Dobernic(1948-49), Warren Hacker(1948-49), Bob Rush(1949-57), Frank Ernaga (1958), Al Dark(1958-59), Don Zimmer(1960-61), Steve Boros (1963), Joey Amalfitano(1964-66), Jose Arcia(1968), Terry Hughes(1970), Frank Coggins(1972), Dave Rosello(1972,1975-77), Dave LaRoche (1973-74), Ed Putman(1978), Kurt Seibert(1979), Jesus Figueroa(1980), Joe Strain(1981), Bump Wills(1982), Jay Loviglio(1983), Dan Rohn(1983-84), Mike Brumley(1987), Mark Grace (1988-2000), Bobby Hill(2002-03), Calvin Murray(2004), Adam Greenberg(2005), John Mabry(2006)

 

http://ignarski.tripod.com/temprost.html#no17

 

Uh oh, 17 didn't work out too well for Greenberg either. Then you have Murray and Mabry that just sucked.

 

Good thing curses don't exist.

[NorthsideAvenger]

What is the definition of Hall of Fame?

 

If Gary Carter (.262/.335/.439) and Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.367) are HOFers, then Mark Grace (.303/.383/.442), compare to those numbers, would be a LOCK for the HOF. And yes, I am in favor of stripping Mazeroski of his HOF title, seeing as HE ISN'T A HOFer. And yes, I don't think Grace is a HOF, but if you used the measuring stick to allow Mazeroski and Carter in, then Grace is a HOF.

 

Didn't Gary Carter and Mazeroski play defense?

 

A defensive 1B with little power will never make the HOF. Unfortunately, certain positions (2B, SS, etc.) are considered defensive positions whereas other positions (1B, OF, etc.) are not only considered offensive positions, but offensive with power positions. Unless you are someone like Tony Gwynn with 3000+ hits, you need to show some muscle.

 

So if 3,000 hits is the absolute mandate for automatic introduction then why is Mazeroski of 2,016 hits, a good 300 its fewer then Grace, and Mark played 1 few yr then Maz? Or Gary Carter of 2092 hits same reason with Maz?

 

So what I am saying is Mark Grace was as great of a defensive 1B, as Maz was as a 2B, and Gary Carter as a C, and Grace was a significantly better offensive player then both, and yet Maz/Carter are considered HOFers, and yet Grace isn't considered a HOF? My guess is both Maz and Carter and Joe Morgan............you fill in the blank.

[Rob]

What is the definition of Hall of Fame?

 

If Gary Carter (.262/.335/.439) and Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.367) are HOFers, then Mark Grace (.303/.383/.442), compare to those numbers, would be a LOCK for the HOF. And yes, I am in favor of stripping Mazeroski of his HOF title, seeing as HE ISN'T A HOFer. And yes, I don't think Grace is a HOF, but if you used the measuring stick to allow Mazeroski and Carter in, then Grace is a HOF.

 

Didn't Gary Carter and Mazeroski play defense?

 

A defensive 1B with little power will never make the HOF. Unfortunately, certain positions (2B, SS, etc.) are considered defensive positions whereas other positions (1B, OF, etc.) are not only considered offensive positions, but offensive with power positions. Unless you are someone like Tony Gwynn with 3000+ hits, you need to show some muscle.

 

So if 3,000 hits is the absolute mandate for automatic introduction then why is Mazeroski of 2,016 hits, a good 300 its fewer then Grace, and Mark played 1 few yr then Maz? Or Gary Carter of 2092 hits same reason with Maz?

 

So what I am saying is Mark Grace was as great of a defensive 1B, as Maz was as a 2B, and Gary Carter as a C, and Grace was a significantly better offensive player then both, and yet Maz/Carter are considered HOFers, and yet Grace isn't considered a HOF? My guess is both Maz and Carter and Joe Morgan............you fill in the blank.

 

I don't get why you seem to think Carter isn't a HOF catcher.

 

WARP3 has Grace's best season coming in 1993, when he posted a total of 8.8. He also posted an 8.7 in 1992 and an 8.1 in 1989. But he didn't go over 8 again.

 

From 1977 through 1986, Carter's WARP3 scores came in at...

 

8.4, 8.7, 8.8, 9.9, 7.6, 11.9, 9.5, 9.8, 10.3, 8.4

 

That's as good of a stretch as your are going to see.

[Bluescale]

What is the definition of Hall of Fame?

 

If Gary Carter (.262/.335/.439) and Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.367) are HOFers, then Mark Grace (.303/.383/.442), compare to those numbers, would be a LOCK for the HOF. And yes, I am in favor of stripping Mazeroski of his HOF title, seeing as HE ISN'T A HOFer. And yes, I don't think Grace is a HOF, but if you used the measuring stick to allow Mazeroski and Carter in, then Grace is a HOF.

 

Didn't Gary Carter and Mazeroski play defense?

 

A defensive 1B with little power will never make the HOF. Unfortunately, certain positions (2B, SS, etc.) are considered defensive positions whereas other positions (1B, OF, etc.) are not only considered offensive positions, but offensive with power positions. Unless you are someone like Tony Gwynn with 3000+ hits, you need to show some muscle.

 

So if 3,000 hits is the absolute mandate for automatic introduction then why is Mazeroski of 2,016 hits, a good 300 its fewer then Grace, and Mark played 1 few yr then Maz? Or Gary Carter of 2092 hits same reason with Maz?

 

So what I am saying is Mark Grace was as great of a defensive 1B, as Maz was as a 2B, and Gary Carter as a C, and Grace was a significantly better offensive player then both, and yet Maz/Carter are considered HOFers, and yet Grace isn't considered a HOF? My guess is both Maz and Carter and Joe Morgan............you fill in the blank.

 

Because position makes a difference.

 

And no, I don't think Maz should be in the HOF either...

[NorthsideAvenger]

What is the definition of Hall of Fame?

 

If Gary Carter (.262/.335/.439) and Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.367) are HOFers, then Mark Grace (.303/.383/.442), compare to those numbers, would be a LOCK for the HOF. And yes, I am in favor of stripping Mazeroski of his HOF title, seeing as HE ISN'T A HOFer. And yes, I don't think Grace is a HOF, but if you used the measuring stick to allow Mazeroski and Carter in, then Grace is a HOF.

 

Didn't Gary Carter and Mazeroski play defense?

 

A defensive 1B with little power will never make the HOF. Unfortunately, certain positions (2B, SS, etc.) are considered defensive positions whereas other positions (1B, OF, etc.) are not only considered offensive positions, but offensive with power positions. Unless you are someone like Tony Gwynn with 3000+ hits, you need to show some muscle.

 

So if 3,000 hits is the absolute mandate for automatic introduction then why is Mazeroski of 2,016 hits, a good 300 its fewer then Grace, and Mark played 1 few yr then Maz? Or Gary Carter of 2092 hits same reason with Maz?

 

So what I am saying is Mark Grace was as great of a defensive 1B, as Maz was as a 2B, and Gary Carter as a C, and Grace was a significantly better offensive player then both, and yet Maz/Carter are considered HOFers, and yet Grace isn't considered a HOF? My guess is both Maz and Carter and Joe Morgan............you fill in the blank.

 

I don't get why you seem to think Carter isn't a HOF catcher.

 

WARP3 has Grace's best season coming in 1993, when he posted a total of 8.8. He also posted an 8.7 in 1992 and an 8.1 in 1989. But he didn't go over 8 again.

 

From 1977 through 1986, Carter's WARP3 scores came in at...

 

8.4, 8.7, 8.8, 9.9, 7.6, 11.9, 9.5, 9.8, 10.3, 8.4

 

That's as good of a stretch as your are going to see.

 

I don't pretend to know what WARP is, nor do I care about it. All I know is from prolly 1990 to his retirement, Grace was widely considered the 2nd most dangerous hitter----especially in the clutch---behind Tony Gywnn. There were times which teams would rather pitch to Sosa, then they would Grace, to which the Cubs had to often switch Grace from 3 slot to 4th slot. To me that has as much of an impact on the game, as a 500 ft homerun. IMO, if Carter is a HOFer, then Gracie is a HOFer, WARP be damned.

[Rob]

What is the definition of Hall of Fame?

 

If Gary Carter (.262/.335/.439) and Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.367) are HOFers, then Mark Grace (.303/.383/.442), compare to those numbers, would be a LOCK for the HOF. And yes, I am in favor of stripping Mazeroski of his HOF title, seeing as HE ISN'T A HOFer. And yes, I don't think Grace is a HOF, but if you used the measuring stick to allow Mazeroski and Carter in, then Grace is a HOF.

 

Didn't Gary Carter and Mazeroski play defense?

 

A defensive 1B with little power will never make the HOF. Unfortunately, certain positions (2B, SS, etc.) are considered defensive positions whereas other positions (1B, OF, etc.) are not only considered offensive positions, but offensive with power positions. Unless you are someone like Tony Gwynn with 3000+ hits, you need to show some muscle.

 

So if 3,000 hits is the absolute mandate for automatic introduction then why is Mazeroski of 2,016 hits, a good 300 its fewer then Grace, and Mark played 1 few yr then Maz? Or Gary Carter of 2092 hits same reason with Maz?

 

So what I am saying is Mark Grace was as great of a defensive 1B, as Maz was as a 2B, and Gary Carter as a C, and Grace was a significantly better offensive player then both, and yet Maz/Carter are considered HOFers, and yet Grace isn't considered a HOF? My guess is both Maz and Carter and Joe Morgan............you fill in the blank.

 

I don't get why you seem to think Carter isn't a HOF catcher.

 

WARP3 has Grace's best season coming in 1993, when he posted a total of 8.8. He also posted an 8.7 in 1992 and an 8.1 in 1989. But he didn't go over 8 again.

 

From 1977 through 1986, Carter's WARP3 scores came in at...

 

8.4, 8.7, 8.8, 9.9, 7.6, 11.9, 9.5, 9.8, 10.3, 8.4

 

That's as good of a stretch as your are going to see.

 

I don't pretend to know what WARP is, nor do I care about it. All I know is from prolly 1990 to his retirement, Grace was widely considered the 2nd most dangerous hitter----especially in the clutch---behind Tony Gywnn. There were times which teams would rather pitch to Sosa, then they would Grace, to which the Cubs had to often switch Grace from 3 slot to 4th slot. To me that has as much of an impact on the game, as a 500 ft homerun. IMO, if Carter is a HOFer, then Gracie is a HOFer, WARP be damned.

 

Essentially the jist of my argument was that after adjusting for league context and positional scarcity, Carter (after adjusting for his fantastic defense) was more valuable along the lines of Banks than of Grace (even after adjusting for his own defensive excellence).

 

That is not meant to disparage the merits of Grace as a HOF worthy candidate, but rather to fully endorse the accomplishments of Carter.

 

Grace has been hurt by the change in league context, as his value might be approximating a man like Carlos Delgado (who might be garnering HOF consideration of his own) in any given season. However, Carter was hurt perhaps as much as any other, and his defense amongst the all-time greats behind the plate.

 

Carter is a sure-fire hall of famer. Behind Bench, Berra, Campy, and Cochrane, he ranks in easily on the second-tier of the best of the best.

 

Behind Gehrig and Foxx, Grace has a harder time trying to fit in with the Bagwell, Thomas, Murray, McGwire, Greenberg, Killebrew, McCovey, and Mize group.