All NL Central Team

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I'm going to throw this out there and am prepared to take the heat: I'd put Pettitte in the rotation before Prior. Based on past performance, Pettitte will give you 200+ innings, a career ERA of 3.78 and WHIP of 1.34. Yes, I know Prior has career ERA and a WHIP lower than Pettitte, but he hasn't had as long a career.

 

So, feel free to attack :wink:

 

Then why not Maddux, if you're basing your argument on who has been around longer?

[rawaction]

I'm going to throw this out there and am prepared to take the heat: I'd put Pettitte in the rotation before Prior. Based on past performance, Pettitte will give you 200+ innings, a career ERA of 3.78 and WHIP of 1.34. Yes, I know Prior has career ERA and a WHIP lower than Pettitte, but he hasn't had as long a career.

 

So, feel free to attack :wink:

 

Yeah, that's not right. I'd still take the 1/2 run less per 9 innings, and 1/4 of the baserunners over the course of 40-50 fewer innings.

[daske17]

Then why not Maddux, if you're basing your argument on who has been around longer?

 

It wasn't so much that Pettitte has been around longer, it was that Prior's career stats aren't as robust since he's only been in the league three years.

 

And I was just throwing it out there for comment. I honestly would lose any argument with anyone on this board when it comes to stats. I'm just trying to keep up.

[Warpticon]

What don't you like about Bay, Diffusion?

 

Seriously...what's not to like?

 

I'd take a 961 OPS in full season #2 from anyone in our organization, especially if that followed a 908 OPS in full season #1.

 

Not to mention he's a superb basestealer and strong enough in the field to play all three positions. There aren't five outfielders in the game I'd take over Bay, much less three in the Central.

[Andy]

2B Weeks

SS JJ Hardy

I suppose I can understand the Weeks love, even though his BA was .239 last year and he had a sub-.400 SLG. But Hardy??? The guy that carried a BA under .200 into July?

[Diffusion]

What don't you like about Bay, Diffusion?

 

Seriously...what's not to like?

 

I'd take a 961 OPS in full season #2 from anyone in our organization, especially if that followed a 908 OPS in full season #1.

 

My concerns with Jason Bay, ultimately, boil down to him striking out so awfully often (300 times in 1286 PA career).

 

The only reason that this so far hasn't been a concern for his average (.295 career) is because he's managed to amass a ridiculous number of hits on balls in play (.351 average on balls in play career).

 

I'm sceptical as to whether that can possibly last. High average on balls in play hitters tend to be, in order of significance, prone to hitting lots of line drives, fast enough to beat out significant numbers of infield hits and/or big time power hitters. Certain ballparks can also make a very big difference. Now Bay doesn't hit a lot of line drives (.222 last year versus a major league average of about .205, but .174 in 2004), he's not a speedster, and though he does hit for power, that doesn't really explain how he's pretty much managed to outhit all of baseball in the average on balls in play category over the last two years. He plays in a park that at least on the face of it is pretty normal, although I guess that's worth checking out.

 

So, I guess it's possible then that Jason Bay has some special innate skill that's extremely rare, which means that he's actually a lot better even than any of you are giving him credit for (and by that I mean we're talking about the best outfielder in all of baseball period, at least if he's able to stick in centre field). Or perhaps he's heading for something of a fall. Well, not so much a fall as a re-adjustment, because he'd still probably be hitting something like .260/.340/.500, which is pretty good all the same. So it's just I'm wary of the guy, because I think the dropoff is more likely. It always is.

[Diffusion]

2B Weeks

SS JJ Hardy

I suppose I can understand the Weeks love, even though his BA was .239 last year and he had a sub-.400 SLG. But Hardy??? The guy that carried a BA under .200 into July?

 

Yes, the very same.

 

Felipe Lopez really doesn't impress me. He's downright awful with the glove and I've got doubts as to whether the bat he showed in 2005 is for real. He's a career .279/~.330/.430 hitter in the minors, and even after last year he's only a career .257/.322/.421 hitter in the majors. Perhaps the breakout was for real, but I really wouldn't be surprised to see him relapse. And even if he doesn't, his defence is still that bad.

 

The other shortstops in the division are JJ Hardy, Ronny Cedeno, Adam Everett, David Eckstein and Jack Wilson.

 

And, I'm sorry, but I like JJ Hardy the most out of them.

[UMFan83]

I'm going to throw this out there and am prepared to take the heat: I'd put Pettitte in the rotation before Prior. Based on past performance, Pettitte will give you 200+ innings, a career ERA of 3.78 and WHIP of 1.34. Yes, I know Prior has career ERA and a WHIP lower than Pettitte, but he hasn't had as long a career.

 

So, feel free to attack :wink:

 

200+ innings?

 

2004: 83 IP

2002: 134.7 IP

2001: 200.7 (I'm not sure if 0.7IP more then 200 is what you meant by 200+)

2000: 204.7 IP (still barely over 200 IP)

1999: 191.7 IP

 

Doesn't seem like hes a lock to get 200+ IP (although much more likely then Prior who only has 1 season with over 200 IP)

[Crewfan]

Hardy had .308/.363/.503 post All Star Break.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Welcome!

[jjgman21]

2B Weeks

SS JJ Hardy

I suppose I can understand the Weeks love, even though his BA was .239 last year and he had a sub-.400 SLG. But Hardy??? The guy that carried a BA under .200 into July?

 

I can't understand the Weeks love. isn't the list who is the best right now? while I realize many drool over his ability to take a walk, he doesn't hit for alot of power, strikes out at an alarming rate, and he made 21 errors in a little over half of a season.

 

the pick has to go to one of the "good hitting for the position," poor range/high fielding % secondbaseman: either Biggio or Walker. considering age and assuming Walker takes his rightful place as the Cubs everyday second baseman, I gotta go with Walker.

[Crewfan]

he doesn't hit for alot of power

 

 

What?

 

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/multimedia/tp_archive.jsp?c_id=mil&ym=200507

 

 

Go there, scroll down to July 18th. Click the Weeks video.

 

 

He was also hampered by a thumb injury for most of his time in Milwaukee. He's 100% now.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

2B Weeks

SS JJ Hardy

I suppose I can understand the Weeks love, even though his BA was .239 last year and he had a sub-.400 SLG. But Hardy??? The guy that carried a BA under .200 into July?

 

I can't understand the Weeks love. isn't the list who is the best right now? while I realize many drool over his ability to take a walk, he doesn't hit for alot of power, strikes out at an alarming rate, and he made 21 errors in a little over half of a season.

 

the pick has to go to one of the "good hitting for the position," poor range/high fielding % secondbaseman: either Biggio or Walker. considering age and assuming Walker takes his rightful place as the Cubs everyday second baseman, I gotta go with Walker.

 

Weeks' minor league career is evidence of his ability to hit for power and lesser strikeout rates.

[Jake]

What don't you like about Bay, Diffusion?

 

Seriously...what's not to like?

 

I'd take a 961 OPS in full season #2 from anyone in our organization, especially if that followed a 908 OPS in full season #1.

 

My concerns with Jason Bay, ultimately, boil down to him striking out so awfully often (300 times in 1286 PA career).

 

The only reason that this so far hasn't been a concern for his average (.295 career) is because he's managed to amass a ridiculous number of hits on balls in play (.351 average on balls in play career).

 

I'm sceptical as to whether that can possibly last. High average on balls in play hitters tend to be, in order of significance, prone to hitting lots of line drives, fast enough to beat out significant numbers of infield hits and/or big time power hitters. Certain ballparks can also make a very big difference. Now Bay doesn't hit a lot of line drives (.222 last year versus a major league average of about .205, but .174 in 2004), he's not a speedster, and though he does hit for power, that doesn't really explain how he's pretty much managed to outhit all of baseball in the average on balls in play category over the last two years. He plays in a park that at least on the face of it is pretty normal, although I guess that's worth checking out.

 

So, I guess it's possible then that Jason Bay has some special innate skill that's extremely rare, which means that he's actually a lot better even than any of you are giving him credit for (and by that I mean we're talking about the best outfielder in all of baseball period, at least if he's able to stick in centre field). Or perhaps he's heading for something of a fall. Well, not so much a fall as a re-adjustment, because he'd still probably be hitting something like .260/.340/.500, which is pretty good all the same. So it's just I'm wary of the guy, because I think the dropoff is more likely. It always is.

 

First, I have to say, I'm impressed with your statistical knowledge.

 

Jason Bay has been getting a lot of hits these past two years becuase he's been getting hits, as opposed to beating out hits. (Does this make sense?) Yes, a lot of them, from my memory, have been line drives. Don't forget the 32 HRs, either. Legitimate Hits. Hitting 'em where they ain't.

 

And, I see him striking out less this year. Why? Better hitters behind him. Sean Casey over Daryl Ward. Jeromy Burnitz over Ryan Doumit (Who moves down to 6th or 7th) , Joe Randa over Whoever was healthy enough to play RF. (Yes, I know he's supplanting Sanchez in the field, but Sanchez was a lead off hitter. This is about batting order.)

 

On another note, Jack Wilson is the best fielding SS in the National League. And, I think a .280-.290 AVG for the year is within reason. :-)

[Tim]

 

Clearly a case of "What have you done for me lately" and a touch of homerism at work here. Scott Rolen is not Mike Lowell and he never will be. If you're going to focus on one injury plagued season and let that color the remarkably consistent numbers that Rolen has put up, you should do so only because you question a player's ability to recover from a fully torn labrum. But if the healthy assumption holds true, there's no reason Rolen can't put up a season resembling Aram's and Ensberg's.

 

Yep. 1 injury plagued season following missing a month of the previous season with a leg injury. He hasn't hit anything since coming back in 04. 3-18 in the regular season after the injury. Bad playoff showing. .235 in 05, before he went down.

See Shawn Green for what a shoulder injury can do to a hitter's power.

[BigbadB]

 

Clearly a case of "What have you done for me lately" and a touch of homerism at work here. Scott Rolen is not Mike Lowell and he never will be. If you're going to focus on one injury plagued season and let that color the remarkably consistent numbers that Rolen has put up, you should do so only because you question a player's ability to recover from a fully torn labrum. But if the healthy assumption holds true, there's no reason Rolen can't put up a season resembling Aram's and Ensberg's.

 

Yep. 1 injury plagued season following missing a month of the previous season with a leg injury. He hasn't hit anything since coming back in 04. 3-18 in the regular season after the injury. Bad playoff showing. .235 in 05, before he went down.

See Shawn Green for what a shoulder injury can do to a hitter's power.

 

Or Eric Karros his last few years in LA before getting traded to the Cubs.

[jjgman21]

 

Weeks' minor league career is evidence of his ability to hit for power and lesser strikeout rates.

 

are you referring to his 20 games at low A, or his 50 games in AAA? his full season at AA he slugged a robust .407. (I acknowledge league may be a factor). there simply isn't enough of a track record to make a judgment about Weeks power with any certainty (nor does one mosterous homerun hit on July 18 satisfy the burden of proof). as for strikeouts, I see a trend. at AA he K'd about once every 5.25 PA, at AAA it dropped to 4.8, in the majors it's less than 4.3.

 

Weeks minor league career certainly doesn't evidence that he is better than a couple of guys who have OPS over .800 year after year. all the potential in the world is there for Weeks, but until he actually performs, it's a litte premature to annoint him the best of anything.

 

plus, the issue with him has always been defense, and again, 21 errors in 95 games. over a whole year, that's 36 errors. unacceptable out of a secondbaseman.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

Weeks' minor league career is evidence of his ability to hit for power and lesser strikeout rates.

 

are you referring to his 20 games at low A, or his 50 games in AAA? his full season at AA he slugged a robust .407. (I acknowledge league may be a factor). there simply isn't enough of a track record to make a judgment about Weeks power with any certainty (nor does one mosterous homerun hit on July 18 satisfy the burden of proof). as for strikeouts, I see a trend. at AA he K'd about once every 5.25 PA, at AAA it dropped to 4.8, in the majors it's less than 4.3.

 

The guy has over 900 minor league PA's, with an IsoP over .200. That's plenty good for a second baseman. His minor league K rate is one every 5.3 PA's. I don't know if he's the best in the NL Central right now, but he's certainly shown an ability to hit for power and not strike out a TON, that people could be optimistic about his abilities.

[jjgman21]

 

Weeks' minor league career is evidence of his ability to hit for power and lesser strikeout rates.

 

are you referring to his 20 games at low A, or his 50 games in AAA? his full season at AA he slugged a robust .407. (I acknowledge league may be a factor). there simply isn't enough of a track record to make a judgment about Weeks power with any certainty (nor does one mosterous homerun hit on July 18 satisfy the burden of proof). as for strikeouts, I see a trend. at AA he K'd about once every 5.25 PA, at AAA it dropped to 4.8, in the majors it's less than 4.3.

 

The guy has over 900 minor league PA's, with an IsoP over .200. That's plenty good for a second baseman. His minor league K rate is one every 5.3 PA's. I don't know if he's the best in the NL Central right now, but he's certainly shown an ability to hit for power and not strike out a TON, that people could be optimistic about his abilities.

 

the only reason I brought up his shortcoming is because this thread is about who is the best in the NL Central right now, so I have no idea why you are arguing with me when you agree with me.

[Tim]

Weeks has had two of his minor league managers come out and say that with the bat speed he generates, he hits for more raw power than Fielder. Not only has he shown an ability to draw walks at a very nice clip, but he also has that Biggio-like ability to get hit with pitches. He's fast enough that if he keeps his strikeout rate reasonable at all, he'll maintain a good BABIP through speed and power.

 

The only real drawback in his game at this point is defense. I don't know if he's better than Biggio right now, but I would wager he'll be the better player by the end of the season.

[Tim]

 

Weeks' minor league career is evidence of his ability to hit for power and lesser strikeout rates.

 

are you referring to his 20 games at low A, or his 50 games in AAA? his full season at AA he slugged a robust .407. (I acknowledge league may be a factor). there simply isn't enough of a track record to make a judgment about Weeks power with any certainty (nor does one mosterous homerun hit on July 18 satisfy the burden of proof). as for strikeouts, I see a trend. at AA he K'd about once every 5.25 PA, at AAA it dropped to 4.8, in the majors it's less than 4.3.

 

The guy has over 900 minor league PA's, with an IsoP over .200. That's plenty good for a second baseman. His minor league K rate is one every 5.3 PA's. I don't know if he's the best in the NL Central right now, but he's certainly shown an ability to hit for power and not strike out a TON, that people could be optimistic about his abilities.

 

the only reason I brought up his shortcoming is because this thread is about who is the best in the NL Central right now, so I have no idea why you are arguing with me when you agree with me.

I think the timeframe is open to interpretation if you read the first post. For the opening weekend, I'd probably rather have Biggio. For the season, I'd rather have Weeks.

[Andy]

Provided Walker isn't traded and gets the playing time he has earned over the last two seasons, I'd expect him to be the best 2B in the division and for it not really to be close.

[reggiemiller rules]

C-Molina

1b-Pujols

2b-Walker

SS-Lopez

3b-Ramirez

Of- Bay, Lee, Edmonds

SP- Carp, Z, Pettite, Prior, Duke

BP- Izzy, Lidge, Gonzalez

[Jake]

C-Molina

1b-Pujols

2b-Walker

SS-Lopez

3b-Ramirez

Of- Bay, Lee, Edmonds

SP- Carp, Z, Pettite, Prior, Duke

BP- Izzy, Lidge, Gonzalez

Finally! Some love for the Pirates! :-)

[Tim]

C-Molina

1b-Pujols

2b-Walker

SS-Lopez

3b-Ramirez

Of- Bay, Lee, Edmonds

SP- Carp, Z, Pettite, Prior, Duke

BP- Izzy, Lidge, Gonzalez

Finally! Some love for the Pirates! :-)

You missed Gonzalez. ;)