Big Ten Basketball

[dalgreen]

Wow, real surprised Augustine made 1st team, though I do find him to be pretty universally underrated.

 

Any reason for the random capitalization hawkeye?

 

I was shocked that Augustine made 1st team. I wonder if the writers will have him on their first team. We have a difference of opinion in him, because I find him to be overrated. To me, offensively, he's no better than he was last year or the year before. I have little confidence that if Dee were to have a bad game that Augustine would be able to put the team on his back and carry them.

[dalgreen]

Dustyism. Wins are a team stat, one that Dee isn't solely responsible for. It's only barely relevant when evaluating individual players.

 

agreed. The white guy at the end of the bench the last 2 or 3 years has the same winning % as Brown. So what?

 

are you kidding me? the fact that brown has been the team leader for 4 years (and no, to folks who don't know much about the illini but seem to think they do, deron wasn't ever the leader), playing a majority of the minutes and often dictating the pace of the games means nothing? i guess to you he's about as responsible for the team wins as some walk-on, though.

 

hating.

 

Sorry, but I can't believe any fellow Illinois fan would say that Dee was the leader last year. I believe Dee was not the leader last year, and I'd argue that there were three "leaders" ahead of Dee last year. Yeah, Dee is the media darling but he wasn't the leader of that team last year, in my opinion. I would put Derron, Roger and Jack Ingram (leader of the role players) ahead of Dee last year. In fact, as I've stated before, I believe if you switch Derron for Dee this year we would only have one or two losses. I also think if Dee was a true leader, he'd find some way to have made Augustine and Randle better this year. It's inexcusable that Augustine doesn't average 16 or 17 pts a game and Randle 10-12 pts per game. Dee is the leader this year, but only by default (Williams not being there).

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Brunner and Augustine over Davis? I mean I expect the coaches to ignore Foster in lieu of Dee in the same way Cy Young voters love wins, but Davis was robbed.

[dalgreen]

Brunner and Augustine over Davis? I mean I expect the coaches to ignore Foster in lieu of Dee in the same way Cy Young voters love wins, but Davis was robbed.

 

I agree with you. I might even throw the "Big V" from Northwestern in there, too.

[rawaction]

FIRST TEAM

Dee Brown, Illinois

Greg Brunner, Iowa

Terence Dials, Ohio State

Daniel Horton, Michigan

ALANDO TUCKER, Wisconsin

 

SECOND TEAM

Maurice Ager, Michigan State

James Augustine, Illinois

SHANNON BROWN, Michigan St.

Paul Davis, Michigan State

Marco Killingsworth, Indiana

 

THIRD TEAM

JAMAR BUTLER, Ohio State

GEARY CLAXTON, Penn State

Je’Kel Foster, Ohio State

Jeff Horner, Iowa

Vedran Vukusic, Northwestern

 

Media. This is a better list. Can't justify Killer and Ager on the 3rd team.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Horton? Over Foster and Shannon Brown? Even over Butler?

[hawkeyecub]

Team results matter on the All-Big Ten lists, especially for basketball. Yeah those MSU guys put up numbers, but they were probably the most underachieving team in the conference this year. If you could take any threesome in the league, you would probably take Brown, Ager and Davis. Yet those guys (with possibly the best coach in the league and some solid role players) finished 6th in the league.

 

I realize you like to simply look at the numbers and make the team based off that, but watching the games helps also.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Team results matter on the All-Big Ten lists, especially for basketball. Yeah those MSU guys put up numbers, but they were probably the most underachieving team in the conference this year. If you could take any threesome in the league, you would probably take Brown, Ager and Davis. Yet those guys (with possibly the best coach in the league and some solid role players) finished 6th in the league.

 

I realize you like to simply look at the numbers and make the team based off that, but watching the games helps also.

 

Team results have zero implication on who the best players were. It's that simple. Did you think Lee should've won the MVP last year?

[hawkeyecub]

Team results matter on the All-Big Ten lists, especially for basketball. Yeah those MSU guys put up numbers, but they were probably the most underachieving team in the conference this year. If you could take any threesome in the league, you would probably take Brown, Ager and Davis. Yet those guys (with possibly the best coach in the league and some solid role players) finished 6th in the league.

 

I realize you like to simply look at the numbers and make the team based off that, but watching the games helps also.

 

Team results have zero implication on who the best players were. It's that simple. Did you think Lee should've won the MVP last year?

 

Baseball and basketball are completely different sports. Trying to compare them is useless. Baseball isn't a team sport, basketball is. Numbers don't tell you the story in basketball nearly as well as they do in baseball. You can have a bunch of "me" guys who don't play defense or make other guys better, but put up great numbers. Teams don't win in the Big Ten with those players.

 

MSU underachieved miserably. They went 8-8 and lost two home games. Yeah I know those guys put up some big numbers, but where did they take their team? They had the most talented threesome in the league. If those guys had such great years (while Nietzel also had a solid year) and were deserving of first-team All Big Ten, why did MSU finish 6th?

 

I appreciate statistics. I read Big Ten Wonk, kenpom.com and The Mid-Majority report. But I also watch a decent amount of basketball and watched a ton of Big Ten basketball this year and saw 8 Big Ten teams (all but NW and Purdue) live at Carver. Numbers do not tell the whole story.

Daniel Horton was one of the best players in the league this year and was better than Jamar Butler. He meant far more to his team.

Brunner carried his team. He was the only guy in the league putting up a double for most of the year and led the league in rebounding. Without his toughness, production and leadership there's no way Iowa finishes 11-5. Paul Davis carried the most talented team in the league to an 8-8 finish. If he had Brunner's attitude and toughness he would be All-American. Instead he leaves MSU with a history full of underachieving in the conference and being voted the most overrated player and biggest crybaby in the league by his peers.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Team results matter on the All-Big Ten lists, especially for basketball. Yeah those MSU guys put up numbers, but they were probably the most underachieving team in the conference this year. If you could take any threesome in the league, you would probably take Brown, Ager and Davis. Yet those guys (with possibly the best coach in the league and some solid role players) finished 6th in the league.

 

I realize you like to simply look at the numbers and make the team based off that, but watching the games helps also.

 

Team results have zero implication on who the best players were. It's that simple. Did you think Lee should've won the MVP last year?

 

Baseball and basketball are completely different sports. Trying to compare them is useless. Baseball isn't a team sport, basketball is. Numbers don't tell you the story in basketball nearly as well as they do in baseball. You can have a bunch of "me" guys who don't play defense or make other guys better, but put up great numbers. Teams don't win in the Big Ten with those players.

 

MSU underachieved miserably. They went 8-8 and lost two home games. Yeah I know those guys put up some big numbers, but where did they take their team? They had the most talented threesome in the league. If those guys had such great years (while Nietzel also had a solid year) and were deserving of first-team All Big Ten, why did MSU finish 6th?

 

I appreciate statistics. I read Big Ten Wonk, kenpom.com and The Mid-Majority report. But I also watch a decent amount of basketball and watched a ton of Big Ten basketball this year and saw 8 Big Ten teams (all but NW and Purdue) live at Carver. Numbers do not tell the whole story.

Daniel Horton was one of the best players in the league this year and was better than Jamar Butler. He meant far more to his team.

Brunner carried his team. He was the only guy in the league putting up a double for most of the year and led the league in rebounding. Without his toughness, production and leadership there's no way Iowa finishes 11-5. Paul Davis carried the most talented team in the league to an 8-8 finish. If he had Brunner's attitude and toughness he would be All-American. Instead he leaves MSU with a history full of underachieving in the conference and being voted the most overrated player and biggest crybaby in the league by his peers.

 

So you're saying the difference between Brunner and Davis caused the differential in the standings? Who performed better this season? This stuff about toughness and attitude is nonsense. I could just as easily say that Davis has a better attitude, more fire or more toughness or whatever, and point to specific examples of him proving such. It's a pointless, meaningless, arbitrary value. Also, if you read Big Ten Wonk, you should know that MSU's brutal schedule(worst possible schedule you could draw up) basically cost them a win relative to the conference standings. What would the difference between Iowa and MSU be if Iowa had to go to Michigan and Ohio State while MSU hosted Minnesota and went to Penn State? Baseball and Basketball are different sports, but the point remains. You don't evaluate players based on how well their teams did, you have to isolate the player's performances. And it's pretty clear that Davis was the superior player.

[hawkeyecub]

MSU's schedule wasn't the difference between them finishing 8-8 and 11-5. They underacheieved any way you slice it. You don't put a team full of underachievers on the top of the all Big Ten teams. Hell, then Bracey Wright should have gotten player of the year last year.

It's just hilarious how you keep talking up these MSU guys for accolades and say they're more deserving this year than guys like Dee, Brunner, Augustine. Which team has the better supporting cast? Where did the teams finish? If you don't think there are intangiables that matter in basketball or football, then this is hopeless.

 

A great basketball player who has a great season can elevate the play of his teammates. Especially when he has such a talented supporting cast.

 

How many Iowa games did you see this year? How about Michigan? How many MSU games? Illinois? OSU? Yet you think you're more qualified to say who deserves all-conference honors simply because you see the stats.

 

Do you think I was campaigning for Luke Recker and Reggie Evans to recieve first-team Big Ten consideration in '01-'02? Recker was the leading scorer in the league and Evans was 5th. Evans was the leading rebounder in the conference and the only player to average a double double. But they didn't deserve it. They were the pre-season pick to win the conference by many, top 10 pre-season, and were on many All-American teams. But they didn't do any of the things they had to do to help their teams win and their team underachieved miserably.

Look at the numbers and it was tough to find two more deserving players. Watch the games (even with a bias like mine) and you'll see otherwise.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

MSU's schedule wasn't the difference between them finishing 8-8 and 11-5. They underacheieved any way you slice it. You don't put a team full of underachievers on the top of the all Big Ten teams. Hell, then Bracey Wright should have gotten player of the year last year.

It's just hilarious how you keep talking up these MSU guys for accolades and say they're more deserving this year than guys like Dee, Brunner, Augustine. Which team has the better supporting cast? Where did the teams finish? If you don't think there are intangiables that matter in basketball or football, then this is hopeless.

 

A great basketball player who has a great season can elevate the play of his teammates. Especially when he has such a talented supporting cast.

 

How many Iowa games did you see this year? How about Michigan? How many MSU games? Illinois? OSU? Yet you think you're more qualified to say who deserves all-conference honors simply because you see the stats.

 

Do you think I was campaigning for Luke Recker and Reggie Evans to recieve first-team Big Ten consideration in '01-'02? Recker was the leading scorer in the league and Evans was 5th. Evans was the leading rebounder in the conference and the only player to average a double double. But they didn't deserve it. They were the pre-season pick to win the conference by many, top 10 pre-season, and were on many All-American teams. But they didn't do any of the things they had to do to help their teams win and their team underachieved miserably.

Look at the numbers and it was tough to find two more deserving players. Watch the games (even with a bias like mine) and you'll see otherwise.

 

There are intangibles, and you're over-emphasizing them to a startling degree. I'll ask it again. Who performed better this year, Davis or Brunner? Not how well they elevated their teams, or how well they lead their teams, but who had the better season as a player? It's not an All-Winner team.

[hawkeyecub]

Here's the thing, winning teams get rewarded. It may not be completely fair, but that's how it is and I agree to a certain extent. Now sometimes it's not a player's fault because he doesn't have the cast around him. But MSU was the most talented team in the league in my opinion and they didn't live up to expectations. When other teams meet or surpass expectations, it's fair that they get rewarded.

 

As far as Brunner vs. Davis, Bru was simply more consistent. Look at what Davis did in some of their losses. He was 4-11 with 10 points and 5 boards with 4 fouls in their loss agaisnt Michigan. 2 points on 1-6 from the field in their loss to Wisconsin. He only had 4 rebounds with 4 fouls in their loss to Minnesota. In the Iowa loss he put up big numbers for a stretch but then disappeared and had 6 turnovers with 4 fouls. He only had 5 boards and was eaten alive inside in their loss to OSU. 6 boards, 4 turnovers and 5 fouls in their loss at Indiana. The only game where he really played well and they lost was Saturday.

 

Davis could have helped that team to a better finish by playing to his potential in their losses. He disappeared at times when they needed him and couldn't stay out of foul trouble. Although he's matured and gotten better at pouting, it's still a problem in my opinion.

 

Brunner didn't have the huge games, but night in and night out you knew what you were going to get from him. He stayed out of foul trouble, almost always gave over 30 minutes and only once had less than 7 boards.

Iowa was far superior defensively. Brunner was a big part of that (not necessarily just with on-ball defense) and Davis didn't show me much defensively for a near 7 footer.

 

When you look at that, then add in the intangiables that I saw, I think Bru was more deserving.

[Derwood]

so, is anyone willing to make some bold predictions and pick the whole tourney?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

so, is anyone willing to make some bold predictions and pick the whole tourney?

 

I need a distraction, so why not? I'm going for the "storyline that everyone will not shut up about if it happens" pick.

 

 

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cubsfan_05/b10tourney.jpg

[Flames24Rulz]

1st round:

 

Northwestern upsets Penn St.

Michigan over Minnesota

MSU over Purdue

 

Quarterfinals:

 

OSU over Northwestern

Wisconsin over Indiana

Iowa over Michigan

Illinois over MSU

 

Semifinals:

 

OSU over Wisconsin

Illinois over Iowa

 

Final:

 

Illinois over OSU

 

definitely not going out on a limb here :lol:

[rawaction]

so, is anyone willing to make some bold predictions and pick the whole tourney?

 

I need a distraction, so why not? I'm going for the "storyline that everyone will not shut up about if it happens" pick.

 

 

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cubsfan_05/b10tourney.jpg

 

Hope that happens. 20-10, Big Ten tourney championship, that would give IU a #5 seed at worse. I actually think IU matches up very well against OSU, if it gets that far. I'd rather face them than Iowa or Illinois. IU/UW could go either way. Depending on which 2 teams show up it could be a blowout in either's favor or be a nailbiter.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hope that happens. 20-10, Big Ten tourney championship, that would give IU a #5 seed at worse. I actually think IU matches up very well against OSU, if it gets that far. I'd rather face them than Iowa or Illinois. IU/UW could go either way. Depending on which 2 teams show up it could be a blowout in either's favor or be a nailbiter.

 

Indiana does match up well with OSU, and they should have a good home court contingent with the tournament in Indy. Also, I think Iowa has a pretty easy trek to the finals. If MSU beats Purdue, they play Illinois at 9:00. No matter who wins that game I don't think they beat Iowa with such a short turnaround after an opponent the caliber they faced the night before.

[hawkeyecub]

Hope that happens. 20-10, Big Ten tourney championship, that would give IU a #5 seed at worse. I actually think IU matches up very well against OSU, if it gets that far. I'd rather face them than Iowa or Illinois. IU/UW could go either way. Depending on which 2 teams show up it could be a blowout in either's favor or be a nailbiter.

 

Indiana does match up well with OSU, and they should have a good home court contingent with the tournament in Indy. Also, I think Iowa has a pretty easy trek to the finals. If MSU beats Purdue, they play Illinois at 9:00. No matter who wins that game I don't think they beat Iowa with such a short turnaround after an opponent the caliber they faced the night before.

 

Yeah but Iowa only has a 2.5 hour advantage over Illinois or MSU. They play the game right before that. I don't think that's all that much of an advantage.

 

To me OSU has the easiest road. NW/PSU should be an easy win on a neutral court. And I think Indiana or Wisconsin on a neutral court is a better matchup than 2-3 teams that are in the bottom bracket.

 

Regardless the league is so balanced this year that I wouldn't really be shocked if any of the top 7 won it. When you look at the Friday matchups and see OSU vs. IU/UW, Ill. vs. MSU and Iowa vs. UM, you see that there really isn't much difference in those teams. It should be a great weekend of basketball, I wish I was there.

 

At least it's nice going into the tournament knowing that we're already in the field and are only playing for seeding. I really hope we can get to the championship and ensure a 3 seed.

[illiniguy]

Dee Brown- first team all big ten by both coaches and the media

James Augustine- first team all big ten coaches

 

I wish Deron could have came back so we could have 3 of the 5 on the first team again. That and we might have been undefeated.

[Chocolate Milk]

http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9290794

 

Isiah Thomas to Hoosiers?

[rjchapma]

Agree with Flames looks like good picks. Northwestern is not really an upset over PSU though.

[rawaction]

http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9290794

 

Isiah Thomas to Hoosiers?

 

hell no!

[SouthSideRyan]

http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9290794

 

Isiah Thomas to Hoosiers?

 

Hahahaha, it's really going to amaze me when Isiah gets his next job after flopping in 4 consecutive jobs. Wouldn't it be great to get those kind of chances in the real world?

[WindyCity]

http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9290794

 

Isiah Thomas to Hoosiers?

 

hell no!

 

 

Ha ha -- that would be great! (for the other Big10 teams).