Big Ten Basketball

[Magnetic Curses]

Dustyism. Wins are a team stat, one that Dee isn't solely responsible for. It's only barely relevant when evaluating individual players.

 

agreed. The white guy at the end of the bench the last 2 or 3 years has the same winning % as Brown. So what?

 

are you kidding me? the fact that brown has been the team leader for 4 years (and no, to folks who don't know much about the illini but seem to think they do, deron wasn't ever the leader), playing a majority of the minutes and often dictating the pace of the games means nothing? i guess to you he's about as responsible for the team wins as some walk-on, though.

 

hating.

 

Sorry, but I can't believe any fellow Illinois fan would say that Dee was the leader last year. I believe Dee was not the leader last year, and I'd argue that there were three "leaders" ahead of Dee last year. Yeah, Dee is the media darling but he wasn't the leader of that team last year, in my opinion. I would put Derron, Roger and Jack Ingram (leader of the role players) ahead of Dee last year. In fact, as I've stated before, I believe if you switch Derron for Dee this year we would only have one or two losses. I also think if Dee was a true leader, he'd find some way to have made Augustine and Randle better this year. It's inexcusable that Augustine doesn't average 16 or 17 pts a game and Randle 10-12 pts per game. Dee is the leader this year, but only by default (Williams not being there).

 

dee has overwhelmingly been the leader of the team since he stepped on campus. emotionally, motivationally, and play-style.

 

deron may be the better player, and that's not what i'm arguing, but dee has been the leader of this team for four years. one of dee's primary attributes is the respect that he commands from his teammates--put on top of that the fact that he voted the BTPOY and DPOY last year and it's not even close.

[Magnetic Curses]

Brunner and Augustine over Davis? I mean I expect the coaches to ignore Foster in lieu of Dee in the same way Cy Young voters love wins, but Davis was robbed.

 

it obviously has something to do with MSU laying a big fat egg in conference play, despite the contributions of "The Big Three".

 

what a joke.

[rjchapma]

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

[illiniguy]

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

Could have been? I still think they could win this tourny and make the final four. Izzo is a genius.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Brunner and Augustine over Davis? I mean I expect the coaches to ignore Foster in lieu of Dee in the same way Cy Young voters love wins, but Davis was robbed.

 

it obviously has something to do with MSU laying a big fat egg in conference play, despite the contributions of "The Big Three".

 

what a joke.

 

Am I taking crazy pills here? Can you say with a straight face that those two outperformed Davis? Wisconsin disappointed in the Big 10 too, let's get Horner in there instead of Tucker.

 

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

 

For real. If he wasn't a huge pansy he would be the best rebounder in the Big Ten, or the best scoring big man in the conference....

[illiniguy]

Brunner and Augustine over Davis? I mean I expect the coaches to ignore Foster in lieu of Dee in the same way Cy Young voters love wins, but Davis was robbed.

 

it obviously has something to do with MSU laying a big fat egg in conference play, despite the contributions of "The Big Three".

 

what a joke.

 

Am I taking crazy pills here? Can you say with a straight face that those two outperformed Davis? Wisconsin disappointed in the Big 10 too, let's get Horner in there instead of Tucker.

 

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

 

For real. If he wasn't a huge pansy he would be the best rebounder in the Big Ten, or the best scoring big man in the conference....

In a league void of elite big men. You would think if he was as tough as everyone gives him credit for being he would have been able to get his team with two other great players into the top half of his conference.

[Magnetic Curses]

Brunner and Augustine over Davis? I mean I expect the coaches to ignore Foster in lieu of Dee in the same way Cy Young voters love wins, but Davis was robbed.

 

it obviously has something to do with MSU laying a big fat egg in conference play, despite the contributions of "The Big Three".

 

what a joke.

 

Am I taking crazy pills here? Can you say with a straight face that those two outperformed Davis? Wisconsin disappointed in the Big 10 too, let's get Horner in there instead of Tucker.

 

brunner looks like some dude i knew back in high school who was always trying to smuggle beakers out of the chemistry lab. that is all.

[illiniguy]

Brunner and Augustine over Davis? I mean I expect the coaches to ignore Foster in lieu of Dee in the same way Cy Young voters love wins, but Davis was robbed.

 

it obviously has something to do with MSU laying a big fat egg in conference play, despite the contributions of "The Big Three".

 

what a joke.

 

Am I taking crazy pills here? Can you say with a straight face that those two outperformed Davis? Wisconsin disappointed in the Big 10 too, let's get Horner in there instead of Tucker.

 

brunner looks like some dude i knew back in high school who was always trying to smuggle beakers out of the chemistry lab. that is all.

Greg Brunner is good. His hairline is bad.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Brunner and Augustine over Davis? I mean I expect the coaches to ignore Foster in lieu of Dee in the same way Cy Young voters love wins, but Davis was robbed.

 

it obviously has something to do with MSU laying a big fat egg in conference play, despite the contributions of "The Big Three".

 

what a joke.

 

Am I taking crazy pills here? Can you say with a straight face that those two outperformed Davis? Wisconsin disappointed in the Big 10 too, let's get Horner in there instead of Tucker.

 

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

 

For real. If he wasn't a huge pansy he would be the best rebounder in the Big Ten, or the best scoring big man in the conference....

In a league void of elite big men. You would think if he was as tough as everyone gives him credit for being he would have been able to get his team with two other great players into the top half of his conference.

 

Yet 3 big men make the first team over him? This team success stuff is ridiculous. By this logic the top 3 teams in the conference are the only ones able to get players on the all-conference team. By this logic Tucker doesn't belong on the first team. Also, you're caricaturizing MSU's season to a hilarious degree.

[badgercub]

Brunner and Augustine over Davis? I mean I expect the coaches to ignore Foster in lieu of Dee in the same way Cy Young voters love wins, but Davis was robbed.

 

it obviously has something to do with MSU laying a big fat egg in conference play, despite the contributions of "The Big Three".

 

what a joke.

 

Am I taking crazy pills here? Can you say with a straight face that those two outperformed Davis? Wisconsin disappointed in the Big 10 too, let's get Horner in there instead of Tucker.

 

Come on, Tucker was the leading scorer in the Big 10 in conference play averaging 20 a game for a team with a lot less talent than MSU. And led them to a 4th place finish.

[SouthSideRyan]

Brunner and Augustine over Davis? I mean I expect the coaches to ignore Foster in lieu of Dee in the same way Cy Young voters love wins, but Davis was robbed.

 

it obviously has something to do with MSU laying a big fat egg in conference play, despite the contributions of "The Big Three".

 

what a joke.

 

Am I taking crazy pills here? Can you say with a straight face that those two outperformed Davis? Wisconsin disappointed in the Big 10 too, let's get Horner in there instead of Tucker.

 

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

 

For real. If he wasn't a huge pansy he would be the best rebounder in the Big Ten, or the best scoring big man in the conference....

In a league void of elite big men. You would think if he was as tough as everyone gives him credit for being he would have been able to get his team with two other great players into the top half of his conference.

 

Yet 3 big men make the first team over him? This team success stuff is ridiculous. By this logic the top 3 teams in the conference are the only ones able to get players on the all-conference team. By this logic Tucker doesn't belong on the first team. Also, you're caricaturizing MSU's season to a hilarious degree.

 

I don't know where exactly I stand on this, but Tucker had nowhere close to the supporting cast that Davis did.

[bukie]

Bit of a change of pace (or something new to argue about)...

 

Interesting article by Yoni Cohen about how the extra road games for mid-majors are helping their RPI (and really killing Syracuse).

 

Another perspective of the All Big-Ten team that I actually agree with.

[snoodmonger]

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

Could have been? I still think they could win this tourny and make the final four. Izzo is a genius.

 

I don't think there's any reason to think they can suddenly turn it around and win it all or even go to the FF. They certainly have a ton of talent, but the fact is, they haven't played that well this season. They're incosnsistent, and they haven't shown the ability to beat even mediocre teams on the road. They're 5-5 in their last ten.

 

Now, I understand the Big Televen is a very tough conference, but MSU has been very unimpressive every time I've seen them play. It's surprising, too because Izzo is so good.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

Could have been? I still think they could win this tourny and make the final four. Izzo is a genius.

 

I don't think there's any reason to think they can suddenly turn it around and win it all or even go to the FF. They certainly have a ton of talent, but the fact is, they haven't played that well this season. They're incosnsistent, and they haven't shown the ability to beat even mediocre teams on the road. They're 5-5 in their last ten.

 

Now, I understand the Big Televen is a very tough conference, but MSU has been very unimpressive every time I've seen them play. It's surprising, too because Izzo is so good.

 

This year is the anti-Izzo team. MSU has surprised people with tourney runs because they always play defense, rebound fantastically, and on offense run so many sets that it's hard to prepare for in the NCAA's. This year the defense and rebounding just aren't there, PF was a question mark then they all got hurt, and they have zero bench scoring. That said, when all 3 of Davis, Ager, and Brown play well, they still D and rebound well enough that they are very tough to beat, and their offense is still tough to prepare for on a short timeframe. They'll need a good draw to do anything in the NCAA's, because I don't think they have it in them to knock off a top team, especially if they face a higher seed that has a quasi home court advantage.

[Chocolate Milk]

I don't think Wisconsin underachieved. Before the season started, they weren't given much of a chance to contend for the Big Ten Title by most media outlets. They were still at or near the top the whole season despite losing 2 key players.

 

I know you were only using it to make another point but I wanted to point this out.

Edited March 8, 2006 by Chocolate Milk

[illiniguy]

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

Could have been? I still think they could win this tourny and make the final four. Izzo is a genius.

 

I don't think there's any reason to think they can suddenly turn it around and win it all or even go to the FF. They certainly have a ton of talent, but the fact is, they haven't played that well this season. They're incosnsistent, and they haven't shown the ability to beat even mediocre teams on the road. They're 5-5 in their last ten.

 

Now, I understand the Big Televen is a very tough conference, but MSU has been very unimpressive every time I've seen them play. It's surprising, too because Izzo is so good.

 

This year is the anti-Izzo team. MSU has surprised people with tourney runs because they always play defense, rebound fantastically, and on offense run so many sets that it's hard to prepare for in the NCAA's. This year the defense and rebounding just aren't there, PF was a question mark then they all got hurt, and they have zero bench scoring. That said, when all 3 of Davis, Ager, and Brown play well, they still D and rebound well enough that they are very tough to beat, and their offense is still tough to prepare for on a short timeframe. They'll need a good draw to do anything in the NCAA's, because I don't think they have it in them to knock off a top team, especially if they face a higher seed that has a quasi home court advantage.

Power forward or not I think the key to any run MSU makes sits on Neitzel. If he can score a little and get the ball where it needs to be they can beat anyone.

[dalgreen]

Dustyism. Wins are a team stat, one that Dee isn't solely responsible for. It's only barely relevant when evaluating individual players.

 

agreed. The white guy at the end of the bench the last 2 or 3 years has the same winning % as Brown. So what?

 

are you kidding me? the fact that brown has been the team leader for 4 years (and no, to folks who don't know much about the illini but seem to think they do, deron wasn't ever the leader), playing a majority of the minutes and often dictating the pace of the games means nothing? i guess to you he's about as responsible for the team wins as some walk-on, though.

 

hating.

 

Sorry, but I can't believe any fellow Illinois fan would say that Dee was the leader last year. I believe Dee was not the leader last year, and I'd argue that there were three "leaders" ahead of Dee last year. Yeah, Dee is the media darling but he wasn't the leader of that team last year, in my opinion. I would put Derron, Roger and Jack Ingram (leader of the role players) ahead of Dee last year. In fact, as I've stated before, I believe if you switch Derron for Dee this year we would only have one or two losses. I also think if Dee was a true leader, he'd find some way to have made Augustine and Randle better this year. It's inexcusable that Augustine doesn't average 16 or 17 pts a game and Randle 10-12 pts per game. Dee is the leader this year, but only by default (Williams not being there).

 

dee has overwhelmingly been the leader of the team since he stepped on campus. emotionally, motivationally, and play-style.

 

deron may be the better player, and that's not what i'm arguing, but dee has been the leader of this team for four years. one of dee's primary attributes is the respect that he commands from his teammates--put on top of that the fact that he voted the BTPOY and DPOY last year and it's not even close.

 

Overwhelmingly? I think you may be overstating that a bit. I'm an Illinois fan and I know a few others who also believe that Williams was the leader on the team last season. I'd like to see some opinions from other Illini fans on this subject, as well. Nice argument to have, though, isn't it? Personally, I think Deron made Dee a better player. I also think Deron would've made Augustine and Randle better this year, too. Brown deserved the BTPOY and DPOY honors last year, but that's performance awards and not necessarily leadership qualities. I still believe that if you put Dee in the NBA and returned Deron we would only have one or two losses this year, at most.

[dalgreen]

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

Could have been? I still think they could win this tourny and make the final four. Izzo is a genius.

 

I don't think there's any reason to think they can suddenly turn it around and win it all or even go to the FF. They certainly have a ton of talent, but the fact is, they haven't played that well this season. They're incosnsistent, and they haven't shown the ability to beat even mediocre teams on the road. They're 5-5 in their last ten.

 

Now, I understand the Big Televen is a very tough conference, but MSU has been very unimpressive every time I've seen them play. It's surprising, too because Izzo is so good.

 

This year is the anti-Izzo team. MSU has surprised people with tourney runs because they always play defense, rebound fantastically, and on offense run so many sets that it's hard to prepare for in the NCAA's. This year the defense and rebounding just aren't there, PF was a question mark then they all got hurt, and they have zero bench scoring. That said, when all 3 of Davis, Ager, and Brown play well, they still D and rebound well enough that they are very tough to beat, and their offense is still tough to prepare for on a short timeframe. They'll need a good draw to do anything in the NCAA's, because I don't think they have it in them to knock off a top team, especially if they face a higher seed that has a quasi home court advantage.

 

Trannon not playing really hurt their rebounding this year.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Davis is soft and should be a lot better than he plays. Mich State could have been really good if he wasn't so soft

Could have been? I still think they could win this tourny and make the final four. Izzo is a genius.

 

I don't think there's any reason to think they can suddenly turn it around and win it all or even go to the FF. They certainly have a ton of talent, but the fact is, they haven't played that well this season. They're incosnsistent, and they haven't shown the ability to beat even mediocre teams on the road. They're 5-5 in their last ten.

 

Now, I understand the Big Televen is a very tough conference, but MSU has been very unimpressive every time I've seen them play. It's surprising, too because Izzo is so good.

 

This year is the anti-Izzo team. MSU has surprised people with tourney runs because they always play defense, rebound fantastically, and on offense run so many sets that it's hard to prepare for in the NCAA's. This year the defense and rebounding just aren't there, PF was a question mark then they all got hurt, and they have zero bench scoring. That said, when all 3 of Davis, Ager, and Brown play well, they still D and rebound well enough that they are very tough to beat, and their offense is still tough to prepare for on a short timeframe. They'll need a good draw to do anything in the NCAA's, because I don't think they have it in them to knock off a top team, especially if they face a higher seed that has a quasi home court advantage.

 

Trannon not playing really hurt their rebounding this year.

 

Trannon played, he broke his jaw a couple games back and is supposed to be back for the tournament. Surprisingly, he hasn't rebounded very well this year, worse than Gray and much worse than Davis, but his ability to guard almost anyone hurt the defense in his absence.

[Derwood]

Local paper today raised worries that even with a win over NU tomorrow, PSU might not make the NIT. Why? Because there are new rules governing the selection of the 40 team field, one of which is that any regular-season conference winner who doesn't win their conference tourney gets an automatic berth. In other words, every mid-major and small conference tourney upset adds another team to the NIT field, taking away at-large bids from major conference teams.

[Sweep The Leg Johnny]

I don't think Wisconsin underachieved. Before the season started, they weren't given much of a chance to contend for the Big Ten Title by most media outlets. They were still at or near the top the whole season despite losing 2 key players.

 

I know you were only using it to make another point but I wanted to point this out.

 

This is true - Wisconsin lost 4 Significant players (Wilkinson, Morely, Hanson, Chambliss) from last years squad, and this years team was comprised of 9 Frosh/Soph and one senior. No one gave them a chance, personally I am surprised they competed for that long. If they didn't have academic troubles, they could of been really surprising. But with that said - I think they performed not as well as they would of hoped, but they ended up at spot where you can't be terribly surprised.

[SouthSideRyan]

Local paper today raised worries that even with a win over NU tomorrow, PSU might not make the NIT. Why? Because there are new rules governing the selection of the 40 team field, one of which is that any regular-season conference winner who doesn't win their conference tourney gets an automatic berth. In other words, every mid-major and small conference tourney upset adds another team to the NIT field, taking away at-large bids from major conference teams.

 

Another new rule is that you don't need an over .500 record anymore, so the win over NU may not even be necessary.

 

Auto NIT bids so far: Manhattan, Georgia Southern, Lipscomb, Fairleigh Dickinson

 

(Edit to add FDU)

[stitchface]

why does the big ten tourney start so late? Why not start tuesday or wednesday and give teams a chance to breathe?

[SouthSideRyan]

why does the big ten tourney start so late? Why not start tuesday or wednesday and give teams a chance to breathe?

 

My guess is it has to do with interfering with classes.

[hawkeyecub]

why does the big ten tourney start so late? Why not start tuesday or wednesday and give teams a chance to breathe?

 

If it started Tuesday the championship would be on Friday night. Far less TV exposure. Even if it started Wednesday you would have the semi-finals on Friday night (competing with the Big East) and the championship on Saturday.

Plus it's easier for fans and students to travel for a Thursday-Sunday tournament.

 

The teams have plenty of time to breathe. Sunday-Thursday isn't really a short turnaround. Plus it only affects two teams and the ACC, Big 12 and SEC have the same turnaround.