Jayson Stark - Marlins want Pie for Pierre / other Cubs news

[CuseCubFan69]

Only problem with Gathright, is there wouldn't be any inspiration to improve his walk rate once he was playing under Dusty "be aggressive at the plate" Baker.

 

And his fundementals would stink since he would be coming from another organization.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

"According to various sources who have had conversations with the Marlins' delegation, Florida has asked the Cubs for their top prospect, center fielder Felix Pie -- a potential deal-breaker. "

 

SCORE!

 

The Cubs have targeted four potential leadoff men to replace Furcal on their drawing board, according to teams that have spoken with them. Those four are Pierre, Tampa Bay's Julio Lugo, Washington's Brad Wilkerson and Tampa Bay's Joey Gathright. Because the Cubs have made the leadoff spot their No. 1 priority -- as opposed to any particular position -- they haven't locked themselves into a pursuit of any one member of that group. The Cubs have no interest in Damon, according to one Cubs official."

 

Pierre- Ack

Lugo- Leadoff? I guess.

Wilkerson- YES

Gathright- Ack

No Damon- yay

 

Why are people so down on Gathright? I admit that about the only thing I've heard about him is how fast he is and that he has no power. But looking at his minor league numbers, he gets on base at a decent rate.

 

2003- At age 21 he put up a .324/.406/.359 line in A ball. In 85 AB's in AA he put up a .376/.419/.388 line.

2004- In 32 games in AA he hit .341/.399/.397. In 236 AB's in AAA (age 22) he hit .326/.384/.373. He hit .250/.316/.250 in the bigs.

2005 (age 23)- In 226 AAA AB's he hit .305/.388/.407. In 203 ML AB's he hit .276/.316/.340.

 

Obviously he hasn't done real well at the major league level, but he's had some pretty good success as a leadoff man in the minors. He's 191/247 in career stolen bases, good for a 77% success rate.

If he had produced those numbers in the minors in our organization I think people would be a little more excited about him.

 

Gathright hits nothing but singles. Literally, he hits a historically small number of 2B, 3B, and HR. That alone depreciates his value. Therefore, his entire limited value is based on him getting lots and lots and lots of hits, since he doesn't walk at an exceptionally high rate. He's not going to be able to hit .330 at the major league level, as he's proven thus far. Since he's worthless without the very high AVG, and not very valuable with it, he's not worth going after.

[ManEatingTarp]

ONLY way I would trade Pie this offseason is if it were for Abreu. Even then I don't think Pie straight up for Abreu would be taken by the Phils.

 

Ya think.

[hawkeyecub]

I guess I didn't have time to look up his walk rates, but his IsoD looked pretty decent to me in each season. Last year he took 29 walks while having 226 AB's in AAA. That would be good for what, about 65 walks in a full season? Not bad.

 

And yes I understand that he's a total slap hitter. But that really doesn't bother me much if we can get a solid OBP out of him and he's hitting leadoff. He's a pretty solid base stealer, so that helps make up for a very small portion of the lack of power.

[abuck1220]

Those four are Pierre, Tampa Bay's Julio Lugo, Washington's Brad Wilkerson and Tampa Bay's Joey Gathright.

 

 

Well, at least there's a 50% chance of me not hating the cubs.

 

 

Why not 75% which of Lugo, Wilkerson, and Gathright don't you like?

 

gathright. decent obp, but mostly a product of his really high minor league ba, which i wouldn't count on him replicating in the bigs.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I guess I didn't have time to look up his walk rates, but his IsoD looked pretty decent to me in each season. Last year he took 29 walks while having 226 AB's in AAA. That would be good for what, about 65 walks in a full season? Not bad.

 

And yes I understand that he's a total slap hitter. But that really doesn't bother me much if we can get a solid OBP out of him and he's hitting leadoff. He's a pretty solid base stealer, so that helps make up for a very small portion of the lack of power.

 

Gathright's not going to put up a solid OBP unless he hits for a very high average, which is very difficult and he hasn't proved able to do at the big league level.

 

Also, his lack of power is beyond slap hitting. Juan Pierre, slap hitter extraordinaire, had a minor league IsoP of .062, and a major league IsoP of .070. Gathright's minor league IsoP is .045, and .051 in limited major league time.

[jmajew]

Because the Cubs have made the leadoff spot their No. 1 priority -- as opposed to any particular position -- they haven't locked themselves into a pursuit of any one member of that group.

 

I am so annoyed by this part of the story. Their infatuation with a stereotypical leadoff man is going to bite them in the butt. You can't build a team like this. You have to find players for each position in the field, then let them hit wherever is best. Find a team with quality from 1-8 and you'll be much better than a team that goes hard after leadoff and settles for mediocrity from 2, 5 and 6. Try to assemble the best catcher, first base, second base, third base, shortstop, leftfield, center field and rightfield you can find, then put them in the best order. Don't limit yourself to a spot you've already admitted is close to barren in terms of availability.

 

Hendry and Baker have spoken at length about the complete lack of the "true leadoff hitter" in today's game. That lack of supply drives up price when met with high demand. The Cubs irrationally high demand is making it harder for them to find a guy. Go out and get the best hitters you can find at CF and RF, and don't worry about the order, you'll score more runs and win more games.

 

 

Goony I think you are right on. It is possible that the best leadoff available may play a position where there are better players available. The perfect example Pierre and Bradley. Bradley is the better player but Pierre can bat leadoff. If the Cubs took your approach they could go out and get Bradley and Wilkerson and call it an offseason.

 

Wilkerson

Walker

Lee

Bradley

Ramirez

Murton

Barrett

Cedeno

[YearofDaCubs]

Because the Cubs have made the leadoff spot their No. 1 priority -- as opposed to any particular position -- they haven't locked themselves into a pursuit of any one member of that group.

 

I am so annoyed by this part of the story. Their infatuation with a stereotypical leadoff man is going to bite them in the butt. You can't build a team like this. You have to find players for each position in the field, then let them hit wherever is best. Find a team with quality from 1-8 and you'll be much better than a team that goes hard after leadoff and settles for mediocrity from 2, 5 and 6. Try to assemble the best catcher, first base, second base, third base, shortstop, leftfield, center field and rightfield you can find, then put them in the best order. Don't limit yourself to a spot you've already admitted is close to barren in terms of availability.

 

Hendry and Baker have spoken at length about the complete lack of the "true leadoff hitter" in today's game. That lack of supply drives up price when met with high demand. The Cubs irrationally high demand is making it harder for them to find a guy. Go out and get the best hitters you can find at CF and RF, and don't worry about the order, you'll score more runs and win more games.

 

 

Goony I think you are right on. It is possible that the best leadoff available may play a position where there are better players available. The perfect example Pierre and Bradley. Bradley is the better player but Pierre can bat leadoff. If the Cubs took your approach they could go out and get Bradley and Wilkerson and call it an offseason.

 

Wilkerson

Walker

Lee

Bradley

Ramirez

Murton

Barrett

Cedeno

I would be very happy with that lineup.

[hawkeyecub]

I guess I didn't have time to look up his walk rates, but his IsoD looked pretty decent to me in each season. Last year he took 29 walks while having 226 AB's in AAA. That would be good for what, about 65 walks in a full season? Not bad.

 

And yes I understand that he's a total slap hitter. But that really doesn't bother me much if we can get a solid OBP out of him and he's hitting leadoff. He's a pretty solid base stealer, so that helps make up for a very small portion of the lack of power.

 

Gathright's not going to put up a solid OBP unless he hits for a very high average, which is very difficult and he hasn't proved able to do at the big league level.

 

Also, his lack of power is beyond slap hitting. Juan Pierre, slap hitter extraordinaire, had a minor league IsoP of .062, and a major league IsoP of .070. Gathright's minor league IsoP is .045, and .051 in limited major league time.

 

Yeah I didn't realize how incredibly poor his extra base ability was until looking at his numbers a little more.

 

Still in his minor league career he has a .319 average, .385 OBP. A .066 IsoD isn't too bad. If he maintained that in the majors and his averaged dropped to .279, you're still looking at a .345 OBP. Now in his limited major league time he's hit .271 with a .316 OBP so who knows what his patience would be in the majors.

[Jehrico]

Because the Cubs have made the leadoff spot their No. 1 priority -- as opposed to any particular position -- they haven't locked themselves into a pursuit of any one member of that group.

 

I am so annoyed by this part of the story. Their infatuation with a stereotypical leadoff man is going to bite them in the butt. You can't build a team like this. You have to find players for each position in the field, then let them hit wherever is best. Find a team with quality from 1-8 and you'll be much better than a team that goes hard after leadoff and settles for mediocrity from 2, 5 and 6. Try to assemble the best catcher, first base, second base, third base, shortstop, leftfield, center field and rightfield you can find, then put them in the best order. Don't limit yourself to a spot you've already admitted is close to barren in terms of availability.

 

Hendry and Baker have spoken at length about the complete lack of the "true leadoff hitter" in today's game. That lack of supply drives up price when met with high demand. The Cubs irrationally high demand is making it harder for them to find a guy. Go out and get the best hitters you can find at CF and RF, and don't worry about the order, you'll score more runs and win more games.

 

 

Goony I think you are right on. It is possible that the best leadoff available may play a position where there are better players available. The perfect example Pierre and Bradley. Bradley is the better player but Pierre can bat leadoff. If the Cubs took your approach they could go out and get Bradley and Wilkerson and call it an offseason.

 

Wilkerson

Walker

Lee

Bradley

Ramirez

Murton

Barrett

Cedeno

I would be very happy with that lineup.

 

I'd be happy with that lineup too...which makes me wonder why so many people think Hendry has already blown the offseason, while the winter meetings are just starting, and there are still very good options on the table. I just don't get it.

[Roast]

HAHAHA. Pie?

 

 

I would hang up on the marlins GM if he even started to say the name pie.

[AramisRamirez]

so its settled --cedeno, pie, zambrano, and prior will get traded for juan pierre and his great D and tremendously high OBP. :wink:

 

here's to a .250 BA and a .300 OBP....oh wait, we already that with corey patterson.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

HAHAHA. Pie?

 

 

I would hang up on the marlins GM if he even started to say the name pie.

 

What if he was going to say "Pie for Cabrera"? I'd at least let him finish the sentence... :)

[JeffH]

Be careful. What if you thought he was saying "Pie" and he was really saying "Petrick"?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Be careful. What if you thought he was saying "Pie" and he was really saying "Petrick"?

 

I'd hang up after hearing Pie-rre, but that's just me.

[YearofDaCubs]

Because the Cubs have made the leadoff spot their No. 1 priority -- as opposed to any particular position -- they haven't locked themselves into a pursuit of any one member of that group.

 

I am so annoyed by this part of the story. Their infatuation with a stereotypical leadoff man is going to bite them in the butt. You can't build a team like this. You have to find players for each position in the field, then let them hit wherever is best. Find a team with quality from 1-8 and you'll be much better than a team that goes hard after leadoff and settles for mediocrity from 2, 5 and 6. Try to assemble the best catcher, first base, second base, third base, shortstop, leftfield, center field and rightfield you can find, then put them in the best order. Don't limit yourself to a spot you've already admitted is close to barren in terms of availability.

 

Hendry and Baker have spoken at length about the complete lack of the "true leadoff hitter" in today's game. That lack of supply drives up price when met with high demand. The Cubs irrationally high demand is making it harder for them to find a guy. Go out and get the best hitters you can find at CF and RF, and don't worry about the order, you'll score more runs and win more games.

 

 

Goony I think you are right on. It is possible that the best leadoff available may play a position where there are better players available. The perfect example Pierre and Bradley. Bradley is the better player but Pierre can bat leadoff. If the Cubs took your approach they could go out and get Bradley and Wilkerson and call it an offseason.

 

Wilkerson

Walker

Lee

Bradley

Ramirez

Murton

Barrett

Cedeno

I would be very happy with that lineup.

 

I'd be happy with that lineup too...which makes me wonder why so many people think Hendry has already blown the offseason, while the winter meetings are just starting, and there are still very good options on the table. I just don't get it.

We can all speculate on who Hendry will acquire or not but at the same time as you can see from what the Marlins are asking it gets expensive trying to trade with other teams. Some here dont have any faith in Hendry being able to pull off some of these trades. I sure don't.

[Radar3454]

Because the Cubs have made the leadoff spot their No. 1 priority -- as opposed to any particular position -- they haven't locked themselves into a pursuit of any one member of that group.

 

I am so annoyed by this part of the story. Their infatuation with a stereotypical leadoff man is going to bite them in the butt. You can't build a team like this. You have to find players for each position in the field, then let them hit wherever is best. Find a team with quality from 1-8 and you'll be much better than a team that goes hard after leadoff and settles for mediocrity from 2, 5 and 6. Try to assemble the best catcher, first base, second base, third base, shortstop, leftfield, center field and rightfield you can find, then put them in the best order. Don't limit yourself to a spot you've already admitted is close to barren in terms of availability.

 

Hendry and Baker have spoken at length about the complete lack of the "true leadoff hitter" in today's game. That lack of supply drives up price when met with high demand. The Cubs irrationally high demand is making it harder for them to find a guy. Go out and get the best hitters you can find at CF and RF, and don't worry about the order, you'll score more runs and win more games.

 

At least they are considering Wilkerson who is not a speed guy. Speed is nice from a leadoff(or any) hitter but should considered well below OBP-K's

[MPrior]

What really boggles my mind is this:

 

Ask yourself, what makes a leadoff hitter?

 

IMO, the answer is this, in order of importance:

 

1. The ability to get on base.

 

2. The inability to hit for much power.

 

3. Speed.

 

The only one of those three that applies exclusively to leadoff hitters is #2. That is the one unique characteristic of leadoff hitters. For example, Bobby Abreu gets on base a lot, and actually steals bases very efficiently. But he also hits for power, so they don't lead him off. He hits in the middle of the order.

 

So really, what makes a leadoff hitter a leadoff hitter is that they're pretty much useless anywhere else in the lineup; it's a deficiency, not a strength, that classifies them as leadoff hitters. And yet, somehow, this deficiency gets turned into (by people like Hendry, Dusty, and others) a strength, and players who fit this profile wind up being vastly overvalued.

 

And the worst part of it is, Dusty's criteria for a leadoff hitter consists of only 2 and 3, plus the following:

 

4. Being small

 

5. Not being white.

[badger1679666666]

 

And the worst part of it is, Dusty's criteria for a leadoff hitter consists of only 2 and 3, plus the following:

 

4. Being small

 

5. Not being white.

 

First I laughed out loud, and then I reflected on pathetic that is.

[Flames24Rulz]

Florida must have it in for Hendry. They give up all their other players for garbage, then they demand the world for Pierre? I don't blame them, but gimme a break..Hendry would be a fool to trade Pie for Pierre.

[USSoccer]

Per WSCR update guy Ofman:

 

The Reds offered Kearns for Mitre and Nolasco.

[hawkeyecub]

Per WSCR update guy Ofman:

 

The Reds offered Kearns for Mitre and Nolasco.

 

I'd take it.

[jjgman21]

 

And the worst part of it is, Dusty's criteria for a leadoff hitter consists of only 2 and 3, plus the following:

 

4. Being small

 

5. Not being white.

 

First I laughed out loud, and then I reflected on pathetic that is.

 

to add to how pathetic that is, speed isn't really required, only perceived speed, an illusion often created by 4 and 5, is required. see Perez, Neifi.

[fromthestretch]

Florida must have it in for Hendry. They give up all their other players for garbage, then they demand the world for Pierre? I don't blame them, but gimme a break..Hendry would be a fool to trade Pie for Pierre.

 

I wouldn't say they got garbage for the other players. They recevied some very good prospects.

 

The Marlins right now hold all the cards when it comes to Pierre:

 

1. They've moved so many other players that they've probably cleared enough payroll. I'm sure they'd still prefer to move Pierre, but with Delgado, LoDuca, Lowell, and Beckett off the books, they may choose to keep Pierre if they don't feel they will get enough in return for him.

 

2. There are a few teams looking for CF help, which can only help drive up the cost in terms of what players will go the Marlins in a trade.

 

Get Wilkerson instead.

[badger1679666666]

Per WSCR update guy Ofman:

 

The Reds offered Kearns for Mitre and Nolasco.

 

Do it.