Cedeno at Shortstop

[CUBZ99]

Cedeno was hurt at the end of the season, which prevented even speculating about whether Cedeno would have played.

 

Has anybody seen his numbers in Winter ball so far? I hope that if Hendry takes a chance with Cedeno, he has a plan B available (Beside Neifi)

 

From the Minor Leaugue forum:

 

 

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Link

 

Stats (I think through last Sunday)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
BATEADOR              AVE JJ VB CA  H BA H2 H3 HR CI BB SO SH SF GP BR OR SLG OBP
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CEDENO RONNY (TIGR)  .237 10 38  4  9 11  2  0  0  2  2  7  0  1  1  0  1.289.286
GREENBERG ADAM (CARI).289 26 90 16 26 40  6  1  2 12  8 24  1  1  2  2  3.444.356

 

The titles are in Spanish, but you can figure it out. Ronny got a later start, but has played regularly since he did start.

 

Ouch, I hope that he is just rusty due to taking the last few weeks of the season off.

 

BTW is Greenburg protected from the Rule 5 draft this year? Would be nice to see the Cubs give him a shot to win the 4th or 5th OF spot this year in Spring Training.

[BigbadB]

Actually, Aramis was fully healthy in 2003, and he was basically the only decent bat Pittsburgh had while Giles was on the DL.

 

He was injured in 2002. Aramis was quite productive in 2003 with the Pirates (better AVG and OBP with Pitt than Chi). Some might even argue he was more productive in Pitt. He had 26 doubles in 93 games to 7 in 63 games with the Cubs. He did display more home run power with the Cubs.

[UK1679666180]

Most prospects don't pan out, it's the nature of the beast in any farm system while, Atlanta is always the exception to the norm and should be treated as how you'd want your farm system to produce.

 

It doesn't mean you should ignore the requirements needed to build a productive system.

 

But, providing past Cubs prospects that didn't pan out proves nothing as far as applying Cedeno to it.

[ltb]

The only instance I can think of where Hendry made a smart trade was with Nomar and he had his hand held by Theo.

 

that's wrong.

 

hendry orchestrated that entire deal. theo gets the credit because of the title.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The only instance I can think of where Hendry made a smart trade was with Nomar and he had his hand held by Theo.

 

that's wrong.

 

hendry orchestrated that entire deal. theo gets the credit because of the title.

 

Yeah, there was an article last offseason that backed that up. Hendry definitely made that deal happen.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Cedeno isn't inspiring a lot of confidence so far in Venezuela. Can you say "Alfonso Soriano, hello?"

 

Greenberg OTOH, I think he looks good for one of the reserve OF spots in 2006. Guy hustles, has speed, good defense, contact hitter. I like him. And his lifetime 1.000 OBP in the major leagues. :-)

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The Cubs have a long history of hot September call-ups and "can't miss" propects that fizzled over the long run when given a chance to start.

Such as?

 

And how many ABs did they get in Chicago?

 

The Cubs haven't had any recent call ups that deserved a shot. At least Hendry and Hughes seem to be able to evaluate minor league talent.

 

Too bad they can't evaluate the talent before they draft.

 

if they're so good at evaluating talent, we'd have productive young position players in Wrigley more than once every blue moon.

 

While Hughes has been lampooned on this board, to say he doesn't recognize talent is a joke. While in Montreal as scouting director he was responsible for locating, drafting, or developing Moises Alou, Cliff Floyd, Larry Walker,Carlos Perez, Delino Deshields, Ugueth Urbina, Mark Grudzielanek, and Marquis Grissom. So to say he doesn't know how to evaluate talent is a joke and completely off base.

[Neuby]

The Cubs have a long history of hot September call-ups and "can't miss" propects that fizzled over the long run when given a chance to start.

Such as?

 

And how many ABs did they get in Chicago?

 

The Cubs haven't had any recent call ups that deserved a shot. At least Hendry and Hughes seem to be able to evaluate minor league talent.

 

Too bad they can't evaluate the talent before they draft.

 

if they're so good at evaluating talent, we'd have productive young position players in Wrigley more than once every blue moon.

 

While Hughes has been lampooned on this board, to say he doesn't recognize talent is a joke. While in Montreal as scouting director he was responsible for locating, drafting, or developing Moises Alou, Cliff Floyd, Larry Walker,Carlos Perez, Delino Deshields, Ugueth Urbina, Mark Grudzielanek, and Marquis Grissom. So to say he doesn't know how to evaluate talent is a joke and completely off base.

 

Vance you have to remember that if your not a moneyball guy you don't get any respect what so ever. It's not like Hughes had anything to do with the Marlins first championship either, sure they spent money thats why they won the world series just like this years Yankees.

Hughes is widely one of the mest respected talent finders in the bigs just this board loves to get carried away with the Cubs front office and the coaching staff hate.

[The Voice of Reason]

Appears to have great potential and a lot of you guys are advocating using him as a much cheaper alternative than Furcal. But aren't you putting a lot faith in a guy than has only played 29 games in his career as a major league shortstop and has all of 80 at bats?

 

The Cubs have a long history of hot September call-ups and "can't miss" propects that fizzled over the long run when given a chance to start. I fear we would end up with Neifi back as shortstop.

 

Thoughts?

 

So, do we totally dismiss a player's minor league stats? Or what the club's scouts think of a player?

 

It would certainly be a gamble letting Cedeno start at short in 2006. But if that gamble meant 10 million dollars toward upgrading serious deficiencies somewhere else, it makes sense.

 

A lot of people advocating Cedeno over Furcal are wanting Giles over what they fear will be an average or maybe even below average player in right field. Some are suggesting the club spend the extra dough on a top of the rotation pitcher. Either way, it's not like people that want Cedeno are saying he's better than Furcal, they're just saying he's not 9.6 million dollars worse.

 

Now, your last sentance I agree with just because I fear Neifi will be starting at either SS or 2B due to the coach and the contract he just signed.

 

I love Giles but I don't see him coming to the Cubs - There is too much competition. The west coast teams have location. The east coast teams have money and the Cardinals are a perennial contender. In most publications, the Cubs aren't even in Giles top five. At least with Furcal, it appears to be only the Cubs and Atlanta are the only serious contenders and the Cubs have more money to spend to get him. Also, he fills two pressing needs (ss and leadoff). To sum it up, I don't think the Cubs can get Giles (even if they were the highest bid which they won't be), don't think Cedeno's ready and do not want to see Neifi again full-time at short. Better Furcal and a mediocre RF than Neifi and a mediocre RF.

 

 

UK wrote

 

Most prospects don't pan out, it's the nature of the beast in any farm system while, Atlanta is always the exception to the norm and should be treated as how you'd want your farm system to produce.

 

Totally agree and why I've stated in other posts that I'm so high on one of the crown jewels from their well stocked farm system (Furcal). The fact that a team smart enough to win 14 division titles in a row wants desperately to keep him only make him more appealing in my eyes.

Edited November 17, 2005 by The Voice of Reason

[jmajew]

The Cubs have a long history of hot September call-ups and "can't miss" propects that fizzled over the long run when given a chance to start.

Such as?

 

And how many ABs did they get in Chicago?

 

The Cubs haven't had any recent call ups that deserved a shot. At least Hendry and Hughes seem to be able to evaluate minor league talent.

 

Too bad they can't evaluate the talent before they draft.

 

if they're so good at evaluating talent, we'd have productive young position players in Wrigley more than once every blue moon.

 

It is not like they are wasting draft picks or not making use of the minor league system. If you look at the roster the top two offensive players are a direct result of the farm system. Choi -- Lee, and Hill and Bruback -- Ramirez. Also, you have 4/5 of your starting rotation all products of the farm system. Not too shabby.

 

I always love how people like to point to Lee and Aramis as instances where Hendry used the farm hands to make a smart trade. Nothing could be furthrer from the truth.

 

Aramis was a hurt palyer comming off a terrible year with a very poor attitude when he came to Chicago in a salary dump move.

 

Lee fell to Hendry b/c Baltimore couldn't work out a long term contract for Lee and Florida was desperate to move his salary.

 

The only instance I can think of where Hendry made a smart trade was with Nomar and he had his hand held by Theo.

 

If I remember correctly, Jim Hendry said he would not make that Nomar trade unless Matt Murton was in the deal. Otherwise the Cubs would have just of traded for Orlando Cabrera like Hendry first wanted to do. Murton was the sticking point in that deal. Hendry forced Epstein's hand.

 

With all that said I could be wrong on my facts, but I believe i'm rigth on this.

[mg420]

Cedeno isn't inspiring a lot of confidence so far in Venezuela. Can you say "Alfonso Soriano, hello?"

 

Greenberg OTOH, I think he looks good for one of the reserve OF spots in 2006. Guy hustles, has speed, good defense, contact hitter. I like him. And his lifetime 1.000 OBP in the major leagues. :-)

 

if the cubs get a solid rf like abreu, wilkerson or floyd would a hairston/greenburg platoon be enough to man cf?

[Diffusion]

It would certainly be a gamble letting Cedeno start at short in 2006. But if that gamble meant 10 million dollars toward upgrading serious deficiencies somewhere else, it makes sense.

 

A lot of people advocating Cedeno over Furcal are wanting Giles over what they fear will be an average or maybe even below average player in right field. Some are suggesting the club spend the extra dough on a top of the rotation pitcher. Either way, it's not like people that want Cedeno are saying he's better than Furcal, they're just saying he's not 9.6 million dollars worse.

 

Now, your last sentance I agree with just because I fear Neifi will be starting at either SS or 2B due to the coach and the contract he just signed.

 

Nice. The above nicely sums up in three well written paragraph every post I've made in transactions in the past three weeks. Well done.

 

May I suggest then, NY, that you're extremely inefficient?

[CubinNY]

It would certainly be a gamble letting Cedeno start at short in 2006. But if that gamble meant 10 million dollars toward upgrading serious deficiencies somewhere else, it makes sense.

 

A lot of people advocating Cedeno over Furcal are wanting Giles over what they fear will be an average or maybe even below average player in right field. Some are suggesting the club spend the extra dough on a top of the rotation pitcher. Either way, it's not like people that want Cedeno are saying he's better than Furcal, they're just saying he's not 9.6 million dollars worse.

 

Now, your last sentance I agree with just because I fear Neifi will be starting at either SS or 2B due to the coach and the contract he just signed.

 

Nice. The above nicely sums up in three well written paragraph every post I've made in transactions in the past three weeks. Well done.

 

May I suggest then, NY, that you're extremely inefficient?

 

Yes. And you would be correct. :sunny:

[jkrapfl]

I always love how people like to point to Lee and Aramis as instances where Hendry used the farm hands to make a smart trade. Nothing could be furthrer from the truth.

 

Aramis was a hurt palyer comming off a terrible year with a very poor attitude when he came to Chicago in a salary dump move.

 

Lee fell to Hendry b/c Baltimore couldn't work out a long term contract for Lee and Florida was desperate to move his salary.

 

The only instance I can think of where Hendry made a smart trade was with Nomar and he had his hand held by Theo.

Yes, NY, Hendry was helped along in those trades, but that doesn't change the fact that these guys helped us land our best offensive players.

 

He also traded Willis for Alf or Clement. You can take your pick of which.

 

I love how whenever someone brings up previous bad deals by Hendry, this is always one that comes up. In retrospect, the Marlins probably got the better end of the deal to this point, but how do you know Willis will amount to much over the course of his career just because he had a couple of good seasons so far. Clement was a big part of that 2003 team that ended up 5 outs from the World Series, and without him there is no way the Cubs make it as far as they did. When that trade was made, most people were elated and thought that the Cubs totally got the better end of the deal because they got two major leaguers for a couple of minor leaguers.

[mg420]

I always love how people like to point to Lee and Aramis as instances where Hendry used the farm hands to make a smart trade. Nothing could be furthrer from the truth.

 

Aramis was a hurt palyer comming off a terrible year with a very poor attitude when he came to Chicago in a salary dump move.

 

Lee fell to Hendry b/c Baltimore couldn't work out a long term contract for Lee and Florida was desperate to move his salary.

 

The only instance I can think of where Hendry made a smart trade was with Nomar and he had his hand held by Theo.

Yes, NY, Hendry was helped along in those trades, but that doesn't change the fact that these guys helped us land our best offensive players.

 

He also traded Willis for Alf or Clement. You can take your pick of which.

 

I love how whenever someone brings up previous bad deals by Hendry, this is always one that comes up. In retrospect, the Marlins probably got the better end of the deal to this point, but how do you know Willis will amount to much over the course of his career just because he had a couple of good seasons so far. Clement was a big part of that 2003 team that ended up 5 outs from the World Series, and without him there is no way the Cubs make it as far as they did. When that trade was made, most people were elated and thought that the Cubs totally got the better end of the deal because they got two major leaguers for a couple of minor leaguers.

 

who actually made the trade for clement-hendry or MacPhail? MacPhail was the gm & hendry was the vp of player personnel when the trade occured.

[goonys evil twin]

who actually made the trade for clement-hendry or MacPhail? MacPhail was the gm & hendry was the vp of player personnel when the trade occured.

 

Every story that came out said Hendry orchestrated the trade (as asst. GM at the time) for Alfonseca. Clement was a throw-in salary dump on Florida's part.

[goonys evil twin]

When that trade was made, most people were elated and thought that the Cubs totally got the better end of the deal because they got two major leaguers for a couple of minor leaguers.

 

Um, at the time I remember practically everybody was pissed off the Cubs settled for a terrible pitcher like Alfonseca to be closer, and nobody was excited for walk artist Clement. This was around the time that stories leaked out about Alf's bad back due to his gut, and his run-in with the team strength guy after not making some sort of weight limit. Florida was trying their darndest to rid themselves of that overpriced chunk of mediocrity.

[UBlink]

Stats (I think through last Sunday)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
BATEADOR              AVE JJ VB CA  H BA H2 H3 HR CI BB SO SH SF GP BR OR SLG OBP
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CEDENO RONNY (TIGR)  .237 10 38  4  9 11  2  0  0  2  2  7  0  1  1  0  1.289.286

 

 

 

Ouch, I hope that he is just rusty due to taking the last few weeks of the season off.

 

 

I think you might be right about the rust - this is 2 games later:

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
BATEADOR             AVE JJ VB CA  H BA H2 H3 HR CI BB SO SH SF GP BR OR SLG OBP
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CEDENO RONNY (TIGR) .298 12 47  7 14 16  2  0  0  4  3  8  0  1  1  0  1.340.346

[Wheelimus]

much better, you knew there's be a little rust...[/u]

[Andy]

Ronny will have to double that batting average to even get a look over Neifi next year.

[NewUserName]

I have posted something similar in other places but it does seem appropriate here. The last step of a players development is major league baseball. ALOT of Cub fans seem to think that a player needs to show up from Iowa and be able to perform at some sort of all-star level. this is just ridiculous. How many players on this years all star team were even in the running for rookie of the year. Most players need about 2 years of major league play to become good players. A good example is morgan ensburg. Houston stuck with him for a couple of years of not so good production and now have a top tier NL 3rd basemen. Most players are like this.

 

when it pretains to the Cubs and their fans how many players do we ever give a legitmate chance to. Hee Sop choi? Jason Dubois? Bobby HIll? None of these guys was given more than a couple of months of semi-regular play. Except for corey Patterson has any Cub position player the last 10 years been given a real chance to become a major league player? when it comes to player development this is where the Cubs are just plain awful. Worse of all the options that we use to keep some of these players from developing are not that good. karros, hollandsworth and in cedenos case Niefi Perez.

So what I am saying is give Cedeno and Murton the chance and not just 2 mos but the whole season. Really the Cubs season is going to rest on how good Wood and Prior are anyway. After a couple of seasons we may have a couple of good players on our hands. If not what did we lose? way overpaying for frucal. establishing that neifi isnt very good.

[Andy]

I agree with you to some extent NewUserName, but how good exactly are Choi and Hill doing right now after their couple years of seasoning? I just don't think those guys and Dubois are very good, or ever will be.

[mg420]

I agree with you to some extent NewUserName, but how good exactly are Choi and Hill doing right now after their couple years of seasoning? I just don't think those guys and Dubois are very good, or ever will be.

 

you might be right but wasnt jason bay traded like 5 times before he hit it big with the pirates? who knows what dubois could do if he gets 500 ab's in the majors?

[DesMoinesCub]

I honestly liked Karros. I think the right veteran who understands he is not going to play everyday is good for the "kids" to be around. Karros seemed to be professional in every aspect of the game. Don't know the guy, but he seemed to be. If you have the proper people in a line up you can take less production from younger guys. With Ensberg, Houston still had Biggio, Berkman, Bagwell, etc to hang their hats on. The Cubs line up doesn't have that type of "we can go easy with this guy because we are getting production from these guys" type of players IMO. Could it with Cedano...it all depends on what happens. I think Murton will have a better chance of "developing" then Cedano will.

[goonys evil twin]

I honestly liked Karros. I think the right veteran who understands he is not going to play everyday is good for the "kids" to be around. Karros seemed to be professional in every aspect of the game.

 

I liked everything about Karros except how often he was allowed to play.