11/12 College Football

CaliforniaRaisin · November 13, 2005

I still don't see why 1-loss Oregon is behind Notre Dame.

Andy · November 13, 2005

The new AP poll:

1. USC (56) 10-0 1,616

2. Texas (9) 10-0 1,569

3. Miami 8-1 1,483

4. LSU 8-1 1,418

5. Penn State 9-1 1,334

6. Notre Dame 7-2 1,246

7. Virginia Tech 8-1 1,214

8. Alabama 9-1 1,176

9. Ohio State 8-2 1,163

10. Oregon 9-1 1,022

11. Auburn 8-2 963

12. UCLA 9-1 876

13. West Virginia 8-1 837

14. Georgia 7-2 780

15. TCU 10-1 719

16. Fresno State 8-1 632

17. Michigan 7-3 607

18. Louisville 7-2 486

19. South Carolina 7-3 402

20. Florida 7-3 325

21. Texas Tech 8-2 319

22. Florida State 7-3 173

23. Boston College 7-3 154

24. UTEP 8-1 124

25. Wisconsin 8-3 104

CaliforniaRaisin · November 13, 2005

Or why 2-loss Ohio State is behind Notre Dame.

Andy · November 13, 2005

I have no clue why 1-loss Oregon is behind OSU and ND, no clue why 1-loss Bama is behind ND and much-inferior-loss Va Tech, and no clue why Va Tech is behind Notre Dame. But I'm not going to complain. For every time a team has been helped by early losses (see ND 2000), they've been screwed by late losses (ND 1998 and 2002).

Jon · November 13, 2005

That makes no sense.

Derwood · November 13, 2005

Will LSU pass idle PSU in the BCS this week?

vance_the_cubs_fan · November 13, 2005

I have no worries whatsoever about O$U. We would smoke them, IMO.

Smoke Em? I admire you confidence but thats pretty strong. Both of OSU's losses were to top 5 teams and games they could have won. Its not like they got blown out verse texas or penn state. When was the last time OSU got smoked, probably not since Cooper was coach, it just doesnt happen. You neednt think about OSU/ND bowl game, Michigan will hopefully take care of business this coming saturday.

Iowa blew out O$U last year, if memory serves. Still your point is correct, and it's just as likely that O$U would smoke ND than the other way around IMO.

Alabama falls below Notre Dame? This is getting out of hand.

I agree. There's no way Notre Dame should be ranked ahead of Alabama.

vance_the_cubs_fan · November 13, 2005

I have no worries whatsoever about O$U. We would smoke them, IMO.

Smoke Em? I admire you confidence but thats pretty strong. Both of OSU's losses were to top 5 teams and games they could have won. Its not like they got blown out verse texas or penn state. When was the last time OSU got smoked, probably not since Cooper was coach, it just doesnt happen. You neednt think about OSU/ND bowl game, Michigan will hopefully take care of business this coming saturday.

Iowa blew out O$U last year, if memory serves. Still your point is correct, and it's just as likely that O$U would smoke ND than the other way around IMO.

Alabama falls below Notre Dame? This is getting out of hand.

I agree. There's no way Notre Dame should be ranked ahead of Alabama.

NewUserName · November 13, 2005

I said this in last weeks stuff, but the BCS poll is actually more legit than either the AP or Coached poll, which is sad.

edit: of course it is more legit, what I should have said was seems to make more sense than the other polls

Derwood · November 13, 2005

I'm guessing the new BCS will look like this:

1. USC

2. Texas

3. Miami

4. LSU

5. Penn St.

6. Alabama

7. Ohio St.

8. VA Tech

9. Notre Dame

10. Oregon

da bears · November 14, 2005

59-7 Texas over Kansas in the third quarter. I expected Texas to beat a beatdown on kU, but geez, not like this.

66-14 now. Texas v USC will be a very fun game to watch.

Funny how several kU fans actually thought theyd be able to compete with Texas for a little while. Looks like Texas is just flexing its muscles now.

I don't think we were totally delusional. Hate KU all you want, we've got a very good defense, and we played them very well last year. Texas is, apparently, a much better team this year than last, and KU is a much differnt team on the road than at home. not that this would be close in Lawrence, either.

No I'm not saying you specifically. On Tigerboard, there were several predictions by jayhawk fans that it would be lik 35-10 and such. Yeah, kU does have good defense against teams like Mizzou and Nebraska. I did not know what the score of the Mizzou game against the horns would be, but I did give us no chance, especially after our loss to New Mexico at home (yeah we are kinda [expletive]).

However, personally, Texas is easily the best team I've seen in my two years at Mizzou. They are just bigger, faster, stronger, and better than any team they've played this year. I personally look forward to Texas vs. USC in the national championship.

shnsajax · November 14, 2005

59-7 Texas over Kansas in the third quarter. I expected Texas to beat a beatdown on kU, but geez, not like this.

66-14 now. Texas v USC will be a very fun game to watch.

Funny how several kU fans actually thought theyd be able to compete with Texas for a little while. Looks like Texas is just flexing its muscles now.

I don't think we were totally delusional. Hate KU all you want, we've got a very good defense, and we played them very well last year. Texas is, apparently, a much better team this year than last, and KU is a much differnt team on the road than at home. not that this would be close in Lawrence, either.

No I'm not saying you specifically. On Tigerboard, there were several predictions by jayhawk fans that it would be lik 35-10 and such. Yeah, kU does have good defense against teams like Mizzou and Nebraska. I did not know what the score of the Mizzou game against the horns would be, but I did give us no chance, especially after our loss to New Mexico at home (yeah we are kinda [expletive]).

However, personally, Texas is easily the best team I've seen in my two years at Mizzou. They are just bigger, faster, stronger, and better than any team they've played this year. I personally look forward to Texas vs. USC in the national championship.

As a team yesterday, Texas played their best game of the season (offense, defense, and ST). The first half was a perfect example of how many weapons they have, and I do think they have more than USC. This team is going to be very similar ot USC last season. They will get better on offense next season losing 2 o-lineman and a tight end. Every skill player is coming back. The defense is going to take a nice hit to the NFL and graduation, but they have several high redshirt freshman and the #1 recruiting class coming in next year as well.

adamb0719 · November 14, 2005

That makes no sense.

Yea it does. He is saying that right now ND is benefiting from an early loss (MSU) and since the UCS game did not affect their ranking at all it is really like ND has not lost since the third week. Teams that are losing now are falling behind ND because ND lost earlier. It happens every year. This year it is benefiting ND but there have been many years it has screwed them (93, 98, 02 to name a few).

Raisin I don't mean this to be negative towards you at all, but why do you just point out ND? There are a few two loss teams ahead of one loss teams, but you only complain about ND. Is it just because they are the highest ranked 2 loss team?

Transmogrified Tiger · November 14, 2005

Raisin I don't mean this to be negative towards you at all, but why do you just point out ND? There are a few two loss teams ahead of one loss teams, but you only complain about ND. Is it just because they are the highest ranked 2 loss team?

Not to speak for Raisin, but what gets me is that ND is the highest ranked team with 2 losses, and they have possibly the worst profile to show for it. At least O$U, Auburn, and Georgia have wins over good teams, and the worst of the losses that OSU, Georgia, or Auburn(who really has no business being above UCLA) have suffered is Georgia Tech.

Andy · November 14, 2005

Raisin I don't mean this to be negative towards you at all, but why do you just point out ND? There are a few two loss teams ahead of one loss teams, but you only complain about ND. Is it just because they are the highest ranked 2 loss team?

Not to speak for Raisin, but what gets me is that ND is the highest ranked team with 2 losses, and they have possibly the worst profile to show for it. At least O$U, Auburn, and Georgia have wins over good teams, and the worst of the losses that OSU, Georgia, or Auburn(who really has no business being above UCLA) have suffered is Georgia Tech.

Michigan is 7-3...that's not too terribly bad.

And is Georgia Tech really that much better than MSU? The Spartans were undefeated after they beat ND, after all.

ND hasn't played a great schedule, but I'm pretty sure Kentucky, Indiana, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, Arkansas and Illinois are all still in the SEC or Big Ten. For every cupcake ND has played (Purdue, Navy, BYU, Washington), most of the big conference teams have played one as well.

OSU has played SDSU, Miami (OH), Indiana and Illinois.

Auburn has played Miss St, Ball St, W. Kentucky, and Kentucky.

Georgia has played UL Monroe, Miss St, Vanderbilt, Arkansas and still has Kentucky left.

So the schedule argument really doesn't hold up in my estimation.

CaliforniaRaisin · November 14, 2005

Raisin I don't mean this to be negative towards you at all, but why do you just point out ND? There are a few two loss teams ahead of one loss teams, but you only complain about ND. Is it just because they are the highest ranked 2 loss team?

Not to speak for Raisin, but what gets me is that ND is the highest ranked team with 2 losses, and they have possibly the worst profile to show for it. At least O$U, Auburn, and Georgia have wins over good teams, and the worst of the losses that OSU, Georgia, or Auburn(who really has no business being above UCLA) have suffered is Georgia Tech.

Exactly. There's Ohio State - lost to Texas and Penn State - and then there's Notre Dame - lost to USC and Michigan State. Why is OSU behind ND? ND shouldn't be the highest 2-loss team around. I'm miffed at Auburn being ahead of UCLA too.

Transmogrified Tiger · November 14, 2005

Raisin I don't mean this to be negative towards you at all, but why do you just point out ND? There are a few two loss teams ahead of one loss teams, but you only complain about ND. Is it just because they are the highest ranked 2 loss team?

Not to speak for Raisin, but what gets me is that ND is the highest ranked team with 2 losses, and they have possibly the worst profile to show for it. At least O$U, Auburn, and Georgia have wins over good teams, and the worst of the losses that OSU, Georgia, or Auburn(who really has no business being above UCLA) have suffered is Georgia Tech.
Michigan is 7-3...that's not too terribly bad.

And is Georgia Tech really that much better than MSU? The Spartans were undefeated after they beat ND, after all.

ND hasn't played a great schedule, but I'm pretty sure Kentucky, Indiana, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, Arkansas and Illinois are all still in the SEC or Big Ten. For every cupcake ND has played (Purdue, Navy, BYU, Washington), most of the big conference teams have played one as well.

OSU has played SDSU, Miami (OH), Indiana and Illinois.
Auburn has played Miss St, Ball St, W. Kentucky, and Kentucky.
Georgia has played UL Monroe, Miss St, Vanderbilt, Arkansas and still has Kentucky left.

So the schedule argument really doesn't hold up in my estimation.

I don't have the time to do it now, but look at the records of the schedule. My guess is Notre Dame is worse then OSU and Georgia, if not significantly so. Notre Dame has played one team that is currently in the top 25. They lost at home to a team that is favored to miss a bowl(think about that, I think almost 60 teams make bowls). Where's the logic to put them in front of Georgia, Auburn, and OSU, leaving out the 5 one-loss teams they are in front of?

Edited November 14, 2005 by Transmogrified Tiger

adamb0719 · November 14, 2005

Raisin I don't mean this to be negative towards you at all, but why do you just point out ND? There are a few two loss teams ahead of one loss teams, but you only complain about ND. Is it just because they are the highest ranked 2 loss team?

Not to speak for Raisin, but what gets me is that ND is the highest ranked team with 2 losses, and they have possibly the worst profile to show for it. At least O$U, Auburn, and Georgia have wins over good teams, and the worst of the losses that OSU, Georgia, or Auburn(who really has no business being above UCLA) have suffered is Georgia Tech.

I agree that ND wins are that good (on paper), and the MSU loss is a negative against them. I will not get into the USC loss. However I think that it is important to look at not just the record, but how they play. ND has dominated every team they beat this year (an argument could be made against UM). They are not just beating the teams they should beat, they are killing them, and in the process beating them worse than any other team that beat them this year. I really don't know if the same could be said about the other teams you listed. Who was Georgia's good win, Tennessee, Boise State, South Carolina? Besides Georgia, Auburn has beat nobody great, and it could be argued the rest of their schedule is worse than ND's. And aside of MSU, O$U has not beat anybody real good. Even MSU is not that good, but I mention them due to the fact they did beat ND, which does make the O$U argument more legit.

ND is ranked higher in the human polls because of how they play. They are ranked lower in the CPU polls for all the reasons you listed. It all evens out in the BCS polls (which is sad to say).

Andy · November 14, 2005

I agree with Adam and you also look at the quality of play in the losses. ND lost a game in overtime after coming back from down 38-17 in the 4th quarter (even if it was just MSU...UCLA did something similar against Stanford who is IMO a worse team than MSU, and no one except me was arguing that the Bruins looked worse for it), and they lost on the final play to the best team in the country. The fact that they were both at home counts against them slightly, but ND has the high quality of their losses going for them. Whereas Auburn looked bad against GT, although they did not look bad against LSU. Georgia has not looked bad in either one of their losses. If DJ Shockley had been available for UF, we wouldn't be having this argument because the Dawgs would have one loss, and probably still be behind ND.

The 1-loss thing is just part of the flaw of the poll system. It's a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, and ND hasn't had a loss that impacted their ranking (and rightfully so in the USC case) since September 21, whereas Georgia and Auburn have sustained both their losses since then. That's where the BCS is the equalizer.

Transmogrified Tiger · November 14, 2005

Raisin I don't mean this to be negative towards you at all, but why do you just point out ND? There are a few two loss teams ahead of one loss teams, but you only complain about ND. Is it just because they are the highest ranked 2 loss team?

Not to speak for Raisin, but what gets me is that ND is the highest ranked team with 2 losses, and they have possibly the worst profile to show for it. At least O$U, Auburn, and Georgia have wins over good teams, and the worst of the losses that OSU, Georgia, or Auburn(who really has no business being above UCLA) have suffered is Georgia Tech.

I agree that ND wins are that good (on paper), and the MSU loss is a negative against them. I will not get into the USC loss. However I think that it is important to look at not just the record, but how they play. ND has dominated every team they beat this year (an argument could be made against UM). They are not just beating the teams they should beat, they are killing them, and in the process beating them worse than any other team that beat them this year. I really don't know if the same could be said about the other teams you listed. Who was Georgia's good win, Tennessee, Boise State, South Carolina? Besides Georgia, Auburn has beat nobody great, and it could be argued the rest of their schedule is worse than ND's. And aside of MSU, O$U has not beat anybody real good. Even MSU is not that good, but I mention them due to the fact they did beat ND, which does make the O$U argument more legit.
ND is ranked higher in the human polls because of how they play. They are ranked lower in the CPU polls for all the reasons you listed. It all evens out in the BCS polls (which is sad to say).

They look good because they blew out Pitt, Washington, Purdue, BYU, Navy, and Tennessee, with Syracuse and Stanford to go. At best 8 of Notre Dame's opponents will be bowl eligible(only 3 are at the moment), and 4 of those need to win out to do so. Meanwhile 8 of OSU's opponents are already bowl eligible, with a possibility of a 9th. You don't think OSU dominates ND's opponents if they played them, instead of playing those top 10 teams in addition to Iowa, Northwestern, and Minnesota?

Edited to reflect that I can't read team's records. Sorry to whoever responds calling out these mistakes before I corrected them.

EDIT2: Furthermore, Ohio State is blowing out teams too. Miami(OH), SDSU, Iowa, Indiana, Illinois, Northwestern, even Minnesota and MSU were multiple score wins. Their closest margin of victory was 11 points at home against MSU, the team Notre Dame couldn't beat at home.

Mike Aller · November 14, 2005

I agree with Adam and you also look at the quality of play in the losses. ND lost a game in overtime after coming back from down 38-17 in the 4th quarter (even if it was just MSU...UCLA did something similar against Stanford who is IMO a worse team than MSU, and no one except me was arguing that the Bruins looked worse for it), and they lost on the final play to the best team in the country. The fact that they were both at home counts against them slightly, but ND has the high quality of their losses going for them. Whereas Auburn looked bad against GT, although they did not look bad against LSU. Georgia has not looked bad in either one of their losses. If DJ Shockley had been available for UF, we wouldn't be having this argument because the Dawgs would have one loss, and probably still be behind ND.

The 1-loss thing is just part of the flaw of the poll system. It's a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, and ND hasn't had a loss that impacted their ranking (and rightfully so in the USC case) since September 21, whereas Georgia and Auburn have sustained both their losses since then. That's where the BCS is the equalizer.

Combined win lost of OSU opponents faced so far this year:

59-40 (.596)

Combined win lost of ND opponents faced so far this year:

48-40 (.545)

OSU has 1 game left with Michigan.

ND has 2 games left with Syracuse and Stanford. Syracuse is going to lose to Louisville, and just for humor's sake, lets say that Stanford beats Cal.

That would mean, if both teams win out, their final win loss of the teams they face would have been:

ND - 55-55 (.500)

OSU - 66-44 (.600)

While I'm upset that ND is currently ranked higher than OSU, it would be a joke if they ended the season that way. (Given that OSU can beat Michigan)

Edited November 14, 2005 by Mike Aller

adamb0719 · November 14, 2005

They look good because they blew out Pitt, Washington, Purdue, BYU, Navy, and Tennessee, with Syracuse and Stanford to go. At best 5 of Notre Dame's opponents will be bowl eligible(only 2 are at the moment), and 2 of those need to win out to do so. Meanwhile 8 of OSU's opponents are already bowl eligible, with a possibility of a 9th. You don't think OSU dominates ND's opponents if they played them, instead of playing those top 10 teams in addition to Iowa, Northwestern, and Minnesota?

O$U is a great team, and they would probably do the same. I have never taken anything away from O$U. They are a victim of the weakness of the polls. If they were ranked above ND I would not complain, and there is a chance they will meet in the Fiesta Bowl which would be a great game.

Here are some interesting stats about the ND wins this year (and losses) taken from an ND message board. Doesn't prove much but it is interesting, well some of it, some of it is irrelevant IMO.

We won at Pitt, 42-21. This matches the most points scored against Pitt this year, and is one point fewer than their largest margin of defeat. (Louisville defeated Pitt at home, 42-20.)
We won at Michigan, 17-10. This is their largest margin of defeat this year, and their fewest points scored since their 14-9 loss at Ohio St. in 2002. Michigan handed Penn St. its only loss so far, and had a decisive win at Northwestern.
We lost to Michigan St., 44-41 in overtime. This is the second-most points allowed by Michigan St. this year (Northwestern scored 49).
We won at Washington, 36-17. This is tied for the second-fewest points scored by Washington this year---they lost 18-10 at home to Oregon St. Otherwise, this was your run of the mill Willingham blowout loss.
We won at Purdue, 49-28. This is the most points allowed by Purdue since their 52-14 loss at Michigan St. in 1996, and their largest margin of defeat since their 31-3 loss at Michigan in 2003.
We lost to USC, 34-31. This is the most points allowed by USC since their 34-31 loss at Cal in 3 OT in 2003 (and most in regulation since their 61-32 win over Hawaii in 2003), the fewest points scored by USC since their 29-24 win at UCLA in 2004, and their smallest margin of victory since their 31-28 win at Stanford in 2004.
We beat BYU, 49-23. This is the second-most points scored against BYU this year (TCU scored 51, only 44 of which came in regulation), the most scored against them in regulation since their 52-21 loss at Utah in 2004, the second-fewest points scored by BYU this year (Fredo held them to a mere 3 in the season opener), and their largest margin of defeat since the aforementioned Utah game last year.
We beat Tennessee, 41-21. This is the most points scored against Tennessee since their 51-43 win at Alabama in 5 OT in 2003 (only 20 of the 43 coming in regulation), the most scored against them in regulation since their 42-17 loss to #1 Nebraska in the Orange Bowl following the 1997 season (shocker: Peyton lost the big game), and their largest margin of defeat since their 34-10 loss to Auburn in 2004.

I am not by any means saying ND deserves to be ahead of all these teams. I do think their is an argument for it though, which it seems a majority of coaches and sports writers do to. My whole point was to find out why some people always complain about ND and not other teams in the same (or very similiar) situation. I was not putting anyone down or trying to start this whole debate again. I was an honest question. We could go around all day on the rankings, which is part of what is great about college football, but also shows what sucks about the system. You provided me with your argument and I accept it. It is very plausible that O$U has a legit reason to be above ND. I just never hear anyone complain about why O$U is ranked ahead of Oregon or UCLA, or why is Auburn ahead of UCLA or West Virgina; but why is ND ahead of so-and-so. Apparently people feel that way due to the schedule. Fair enough.

Andy · November 14, 2005

I agree with Adam and you also look at the quality of play in the losses. ND lost a game in overtime after coming back from down 38-17 in the 4th quarter (even if it was just MSU...UCLA did something similar against Stanford who is IMO a worse team than MSU, and no one except me was arguing that the Bruins looked worse for it), and they lost on the final play to the best team in the country. The fact that they were both at home counts against them slightly, but ND has the high quality of their losses going for them. Whereas Auburn looked bad against GT, although they did not look bad against LSU. Georgia has not looked bad in either one of their losses. If DJ Shockley had been available for UF, we wouldn't be having this argument because the Dawgs would have one loss, and probably still be behind ND.

The 1-loss thing is just part of the flaw of the poll system. It's a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, and ND hasn't had a loss that impacted their ranking (and rightfully so in the USC case) since September 21, whereas Georgia and Auburn have sustained both their losses since then. That's where the BCS is the equalizer.

Combined win lost of OSU opponents faced so far this year:
59-40 (.596)

Combined win lost of ND opponents faced so far this year:
48-40 (.545)

OSU has 1 game left with Michigan.
ND has 2 games left with Syracuse and Stanford. Syracuse is going to lose to Louisville, and just for humor's sake, lets say that Stanford beats Cal.

That would mean, if both teams win out, their final win loss of the teams they face would have been:

ND - 55-55 (.500)
OSU - 66-44 (.600)

While I'm upset that ND is currently ranked higher than OSU, it would be a joke if they ended the season that way. (Given that OSU can beat Michigan)

In all fairness, they could get a chance to prove it in the Fiesta Bowl, or, if they don't play each other, OSU could lose their bowl and ND could win, and then it would not be a joke.

Transmogrified Tiger · November 14, 2005

They look good because they blew out Pitt, Washington, Purdue, BYU, Navy, and Tennessee, with Syracuse and Stanford to go. At best 5 of Notre Dame's opponents will be bowl eligible(only 2 are at the moment), and 2 of those need to win out to do so. Meanwhile 8 of OSU's opponents are already bowl eligible, with a possibility of a 9th. You don't think OSU dominates ND's opponents if they played them, instead of playing those top 10 teams in addition to Iowa, Northwestern, and Minnesota?

O$U is a great team, and they would probably do the same. I have never taken anything away from O$U. They are a victim of the weakness of the polls. If they were ranked above ND I would not complain, and there is a chance they will meet in the Fiesta Bowl which would be a great game.
Here are some interesting stats about the ND wins this year (and losses) taken from an ND message board. Doesn't prove much but it is interesting, well some of it, some of it is irrelevant IMO.

We won at Pitt, 42-21. This matches the most points scored against Pitt this year, and is one point fewer than their largest margin of defeat. (Louisville defeated Pitt at home, 42-20.)
We won at Michigan, 17-10. This is their largest margin of defeat this year, and their fewest points scored since their 14-9 loss at Ohio St. in 2002. Michigan handed Penn St. its only loss so far, and had a decisive win at Northwestern.
We lost to Michigan St., 44-41 in overtime. This is the second-most points allowed by Michigan St. this year (Northwestern scored 49).
We won at Washington, 36-17. This is tied for the second-fewest points scored by Washington this year---they lost 18-10 at home to Oregon St. Otherwise, this was your run of the mill Willingham blowout loss.
We won at Purdue, 49-28. This is the most points allowed by Purdue since their 52-14 loss at Michigan St. in 1996, and their largest margin of defeat since their 31-3 loss at Michigan in 2003.
We lost to USC, 34-31. This is the most points allowed by USC since their 34-31 loss at Cal in 3 OT in 2003 (and most in regulation since their 61-32 win over Hawaii in 2003), the fewest points scored by USC since their 29-24 win at UCLA in 2004, and their smallest margin of victory since their 31-28 win at Stanford in 2004.
We beat BYU, 49-23. This is the second-most points scored against BYU this year (TCU scored 51, only 44 of which came in regulation), the most scored against them in regulation since their 52-21 loss at Utah in 2004, the second-fewest points scored by BYU this year (Fredo held them to a mere 3 in the season opener), and their largest margin of defeat since the aforementioned Utah game last year.
We beat Tennessee, 41-21. This is the most points scored against Tennessee since their 51-43 win at Alabama in 5 OT in 2003 (only 20 of the 43 coming in regulation), the most scored against them in regulation since their 42-17 loss to #1 Nebraska in the Orange Bowl following the 1997 season (shocker: Peyton lost the big game), and their largest margin of defeat since their 34-10 loss to Auburn in 2004.

I am not by any means saying ND deserves to be ahead of all these teams. I do think their is an argument for it though, which it seems a majority of coaches and sports writers do to. My whole point was to find out why some people always complain about ND and not other teams in the same (or very similiar) situation. I was not putting anyone down or trying to start this whole debate again. I was an honest question. We could go around all day on the rankings, which is part of what is great about college football, but also shows what sucks about the system. You provided me with your argument and I accept it. It is very plausible that O$U has a legit reason to be above ND. I just never hear anyone complain about why O$U is ranked ahead of Oregon or UCLA, or why is Auburn ahead of UCLA or West Virgina; but why is ND ahead of so-and-so. Apparently people feel that way due to the schedule. Fair enough.

I really doubt the voters are looking at those obscure facts. They go both ways as well. Only Hawaii and Illinois gave up more points to MSU than ND did. Same situation against Washington, only Idaho and Arizona were worse. Eastern Michigan and Indiana are the only teams to score fewer points against Michigan than Notre Dame this year.

Food for thought. The biggest wins to ND and TCU's credit this year are road wins at perennial powerhouses have down years that have 3 losses this year. If you replace Army with USC on their schedule(a certain loss for the Horned Frogs), their opponents have a 54-54 record, compared to ND's 55-55 outlined above. Notre Dame is ranked 6/7, TCU 15th.

Andy · November 14, 2005

They look good because they blew out Pitt, Washington, Purdue, BYU, Navy, and Tennessee, with Syracuse and Stanford to go. At best 5 of Notre Dame's opponents will be bowl eligible(only 2 are at the moment), and 2 of those need to win out to do so. Meanwhile 8 of OSU's opponents are already bowl eligible, with a possibility of a 9th. You don't think OSU dominates ND's opponents if they played them, instead of playing those top 10 teams in addition to Iowa, Northwestern, and Minnesota?

O$U is a great team, and they would probably do the same. I have never taken anything away from O$U. They are a victim of the weakness of the polls. If they were ranked above ND I would not complain, and there is a chance they will meet in the Fiesta Bowl which would be a great game.
Here are some interesting stats about the ND wins this year (and losses) taken from an ND message board. Doesn't prove much but it is interesting, well some of it, some of it is irrelevant IMO.

We won at Pitt, 42-21. This matches the most points scored against Pitt this year, and is one point fewer than their largest margin of defeat. (Louisville defeated Pitt at home, 42-20.)
We won at Michigan, 17-10. This is their largest margin of defeat this year, and their fewest points scored since their 14-9 loss at Ohio St. in 2002. Michigan handed Penn St. its only loss so far, and had a decisive win at Northwestern.
We lost to Michigan St., 44-41 in overtime. This is the second-most points allowed by Michigan St. this year (Northwestern scored 49).
We won at Washington, 36-17. This is tied for the second-fewest points scored by Washington this year---they lost 18-10 at home to Oregon St. Otherwise, this was your run of the mill Willingham blowout loss.
We won at Purdue, 49-28. This is the most points allowed by Purdue since their 52-14 loss at Michigan St. in 1996, and their largest margin of defeat since their 31-3 loss at Michigan in 2003.
We lost to USC, 34-31. This is the most points allowed by USC since their 34-31 loss at Cal in 3 OT in 2003 (and most in regulation since their 61-32 win over Hawaii in 2003), the fewest points scored by USC since their 29-24 win at UCLA in 2004, and their smallest margin of victory since their 31-28 win at Stanford in 2004.
We beat BYU, 49-23. This is the second-most points scored against BYU this year (TCU scored 51, only 44 of which came in regulation), the most scored against them in regulation since their 52-21 loss at Utah in 2004, the second-fewest points scored by BYU this year (Fredo held them to a mere 3 in the season opener), and their largest margin of defeat since the aforementioned Utah game last year.
We beat Tennessee, 41-21. This is the most points scored against Tennessee since their 51-43 win at Alabama in 5 OT in 2003 (only 20 of the 43 coming in regulation), the most scored against them in regulation since their 42-17 loss to #1 Nebraska in the Orange Bowl following the 1997 season (shocker: Peyton lost the big game), and their largest margin of defeat since their 34-10 loss to Auburn in 2004.

I am not by any means saying ND deserves to be ahead of all these teams. I do think their is an argument for it though, which it seems a majority of coaches and sports writers do to. My whole point was to find out why some people always complain about ND and not other teams in the same (or very similiar) situation. I was not putting anyone down or trying to start this whole debate again. I was an honest question. We could go around all day on the rankings, which is part of what is great about college football, but also shows what sucks about the system. You provided me with your argument and I accept it. It is very plausible that O$U has a legit reason to be above ND. I just never hear anyone complain about why O$U is ranked ahead of Oregon or UCLA, or why is Auburn ahead of UCLA or West Virgina; but why is ND ahead of so-and-so. Apparently people feel that way due to the schedule. Fair enough.

I really doubt the voters are looking at those obscure facts. They go both ways as well. Only Hawaii and Illinois gave up more points to MSU than ND did. Same situation against Washington, only Idaho and Arizona were worse. Eastern Michigan and Indiana are the only teams to score fewer points against Michigan than Notre Dame this year.

Food for thought. The biggest wins to ND and TCU's credit this year are road wins at perennial powerhouses have down years that have 3 losses this year. If you replace Army with USC on their schedule(a certain loss for the Horned Frogs), their opponents have a 54-54 record, compared to ND's 55-55 outlined above. Notre Dame is ranked 6/7, TCU 15th.

Terrible example. No matter how disappointing ND's schedule has been, it's still much better than C-USA. And if we can hypothetically replace teams here and there, then I want to replace Cuse with a half-decent team. Then ND's opponent record is better.

If we start opening up cans of worms like hypothetical schedule replacements, then this could go on a very long time.

11/12 College Football

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