Cubs (Horton) vs White Sox (Civale): 7/26/25, 6:10pm

[Derwood]

7 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

Really surprised by the complete lack of Ks for Cade so far. Like I didn't expect him to retain his 10+K/9 from the minors, but I certainly didn't expect him to be neck and neck with Colin Rea in the K/9 department. I also think that makes him pretty exciting. He's not really missing bats yet and he's still a solid pitcher with decent peripherals. 

Batters also have nearly a .300 average against him on 0-2 counts

[Jason Ross]

Yeah, the thing about Horton is that he is missing bats; just not with two strikes. His chase% and whiff% are both around the 70th percentile.

My assumption is that the Cubs have worked specifically on his fastball shape/location first and foremost; splitting his fastball into a 4-seam with cut (LHP) and a sinker (RHP). These pitches don't have a lot of strikeout usage. I think the next step will be just tweaking the slider a bit (location and pitch mix). That's when I think the K's will jump. 

[Derwood]

1 hour ago, Jason Ross said:

Yeah, the thing about Horton is that he is missing bats; just not with two strikes. His chase% and whiff% are both around the 70th percentile.

My assumption is that the Cubs have worked specifically on his fastball shape/location first and foremost; splitting his fastball into a 4-seam with cut (LHP) and a sinker (RHP). These pitches don't have a lot of strikeout usage. I think the next step will be just tweaking the slider a bit (location and pitch mix). That's when I think the K's will jump. 

and if he can be consistent with his change up to lefties

[Geographyhater8888]

9 hours ago, UMFan83 said:

I don't know why I just realized this, but with:

-the ASB

-6 game homestead coming out of the break

-a day off

-3 game series vs. White Sox

-3 game series in Milwaukee

-another day off

-6 game homestead

-yet another day off

The Cubs are currently in a 25 day stretch where they only have to leave Chicago once, to Milwaukee for 3 days (close enough to technically sleep in their own beds if they wanted to).  Of course I'm sure a lot of the team went somewhere else during the break, but cool little schedule quirk.

Too bad the rotation and top of the order hasn’t benefited from the lack of jet lag with any consistency since break.

[Geographyhater8888]

2 hours ago, Jason Ross said:

Yeah, the thing about Horton is that he is missing bats; just not with two strikes. His chase% and whiff% are both around the 70th percentile.

My assumption is that the Cubs have worked specifically on his fastball shape/location first and foremost; splitting his fastball into a 4-seam with cut (LHP) and a sinker (RHP). These pitches don't have a lot of strikeout usage. I think the next step will be just tweaking the slider a bit (location and pitch mix). That's when I think the K's will jump. 

It seems like he has better ride on his 4 seamer from the naked eye too. It also seems like he throws a lot of 2 strike pitches in the zone as well which might also play a role. What does ZIPS say? They’ve been on the money with Shaw albeit in limited at bats.

[Geographyhater8888]

Are slurve pitches ever really taught by coaches as a specific pitch to add or it simply the name of a pitch that naturally as something In between a slider and a curve with the intention of throwing either of the latter pitches?

Edited July 27, 2025 by Geographyhater8888

[Donzo]

11 hours ago, cubfansince77 said:

Horton is NICE guys....we've got a good one and you can slot him in for next season too. But I do have to ask...what kind of innings count will he have this season? Still a long way to go. TIA

Very good question. I brought it up this week in Minor League Talk in the Minor League Musings thread.

He's pitched a career high 98-innings after only pitching 34-innings last year. He'll need some type of break. Either be replaced in the rotaion by Assad/Taillon, or a new pitcher, or go through a biomechanic process. Wiggins also hit his carrer high in innings in July and the Cubs are using biomechanic trainning with him.

A lot of options here.

[Derwood]

Woodruff going for Milwaukee today, so we miss him next series

[JD94]

6 minutes ago, Derwood said:

Woodruff going for Milwaukee today, so we miss him next series

Still have to face Mis the Kid and Peralta

[Rcal10]

3 minutes ago, JD94 said:

Still have to face Mis the Kid and Peralta

And right now Priester is the other pitcher against Rea. Really hope we get an Marlin pitcher today to slot him in for Tuesday. 

[Jason Ross]

1 hour ago, Geographyhater8888 said:

It seems like he has better ride on his 4 seamer from the naked eye too. It also seems like he throws a lot of 2 strike pitches in the zone as well which might also play a role. What does ZIPS say? They’ve been on the money with Shaw albeit in limited at bats.

He has significant cut on it towards his glove side. Not much ride. It's usually one or the other. He does have an overhand release so there is natural ride on it from that, but it's not it's signature. 

ZiPS probably isn't useful here; as much of Shaw was underperforming metrics and Horton is more or less working within those metrics but changing his pitch mix. ZiPS actually doesn't love Cade and that's because it takes K% as an input heavily into account and Cade is getting a lot of whiff but not striking out hitters yet. But I'm unconcerned about it; Cade is learning a different way from Shaw.

[PeanutPunch33]

15 hours ago, UMFan83 said:

Ironically this was posted 15 mins ago:

 

 

honestly I’m not sure how I’d feel, it would depend on the other moves we made. We’d still need a minimum of 1 starter and pen arm. 

As for Shaw, very encouraging and the smart people can tell us how sustainable it is, but the Cubs lineup could definitely use a power hitting right handed batter with 3 of the 4 best power hitters being lefty. If you can get a guy who could hit 50 HRs this year for the middle of the order it’s enticing even if it puts a pause on Shaw’s rise imo.  It makes the Cubs lineup that much more difficult to pitch to when you can mix in another righty power bat  

But at the same time I won’t complain if the Cubs like what they see from Shaw and don’t pull the trigger on upgrading 3B. Offense isn’t generally a problem for the Cubs. 

This is kind of how I feel.  I still am leaning towards getting Saurez because I fear that potential matchup against the Phillies trio of lefties in the playoffs.  And it wouldn't be the worst thing for Shaw to learn behind a vet for half a season.  But damn, is the kid making it a tough call with his play lately.  

[chibears55]

14 hours ago, UMFan83 said:

Rumors are the DBacks are looking for pitching prospects specifically in trades.  Doesn't mean it can't be done without them but it seems to be what they are pushing for.

Give them Brown, Wicks, and a lower level kid 😅

[Rcal10]

7 minutes ago, chibears55 said:

Give them Brown, Wicks, and a lower level kid 😅

Brown, Wicks and another prospect for Suarez? I know it has been said to you before, but I am glad you are not the Cubs GM.😅

All jokes aside, I wouldn’t do that. 

[WhyCantWeWin]

I would think Wicks would be enough. Or do you guys think other teams have realized he really sucks? Someone might buy into his high draft position 

[We Got The Whole 9]

The thing about Wicks is that according to stuff+, 4 of his pitches are above average, 3 of them are 110+. I'd think teams would be very interested in him.