C+C Losing Factory (Thursday on Prime)

[jersey cubs fan]

1 hour ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

I would like to point out that even when they agree with me about things like Montez Sweat being nothing special, I still place absolutely zero value on PFF grades

This is all true, but it was a nice rating 

[raw]

2 minutes ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

I get the disdain for Bagent and these comments but damn have you seen Fields career numbers in the 4th qtr when one TD drive is all that is needed? It's pretty easy to see why Bears fans are skeptical of his ability to win NFL games. He has been god-awful. I just don't think those comments should bother anyone because it is extremely likely that Poles believes neither should start for the Bears next year and it's simply about playing out the string this year. 

 

I think some of you guys pay way too much mind to stupid people out there, though. 

Yeah, there is something to being able to win games. I think Bagent playing below average to poorly and still be able to win games is a good thing. It's better than the alternative that they are seeing in Carolina. Bagent is clearly something based on his ability to win games (because his numbers aren't anything to write home about). There's a small chance he gets better, to the point of being a really solid option with a ton of weapons like Purdy. But at least these 4 games proved that he is at least a backup QB going forward you know won't completely embarrass you if he has to start. And we have seen embarrassing with several backups, not going to name the many names.

Obviously, it takes more than the QB to win games, but this only helps whatever evaluation of Fields is left to be completed. Fields isn't going to be facing the Raiders w/ multiple time failed coach McDaniel, but if he's truly better than Bagent, he should be able to perform better against better teams as well. 

[WrigleyField 22]

1 hour ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

It sure didn't help.  All that draft capital for the privelege of making him the highest-paid defensive player in the league.

I don't mind extreme ineffiicency when you think you're close and are trying to win right away and are willing to accept a hit further down the road, but that's what the Mack deal was.

Im pretty doubtful you can get good enough to be close without also being inefficient first.  Which perhaps begs the question of how me meausure efficiency in the first place.

 

But no, they were doing things like spending huge on Quinn after one offseason and the supposed terrible cap situation Pace left behind lasted like 4 months (generously, it actually didn't exist).  They weren't ever hamstung by having the deal, even if it didn't hit desired efficiency/results measures.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

That first third down throw that should have been an easy pick spooked him imo 

 

I 

[Soul]

Bagent’s Dad won the arm wrestling world championship 27 times.  Obviously the kid has winning in his blood.  It’s a slam dunk.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

If poles hits on his QB pick next season, no one will remember his dumb shenanigans in years 1-2

And if he doesn't, a dozen montez sweats  won't salvage it 

 

[Outshined_One]

The callers on sports radio yapping about Bagent being a better QB prospect than Bryce Young definitely wasn't the dog whistle I was expecting to come across today.

[WrigleyField 22]

21 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

If poles hits on his QB pick next season, no one will remember his dumb shenanigans in years 1-2

And if he doesn't, a dozen montez sweats  won't salvage it 

 

Eh, there's still the Tom Telescos of the world who unequivocally hit on QBs and still having everyone very much care about their other moves. 

[WrigleyField 22]

What I'm saying is QB evaluations being de facto make or break career determiners for GMs is the dumbest thing NFL owners/fans do.

Edited November 10, 2023 by WrigleyField 22

[Hairyducked Idiot]

24 minutes ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

What I'm saying is QB evaluations being de facto make or break career determiners for GMs is the dumbest thing NFL owners/fans do.

Probably, but they're ultimately judged by results, and QBs get results.

[BigSlick]

2 hours ago, Outshined_One said:

The callers on sports radio yapping about Bagent being a better QB prospect than Bryce Young definitely wasn't the dog whistle I was expecting to come across today.

It is of course extremely stupid and racist of all the low-info Bears fans, but I do have to say, I hadn't seen Young play until yesterday and I am shocked at how unimpressive he was and bewildered that someone who is 5'10" (probably shorter) went 1st overall and doesn't seem to display any of the qualities that made someone like Drew Brees or Russell Wilson succeed despite their height. How does that happen? 

Edited November 10, 2023 by BigSlick

[raw]

I think Bryce will be fine. it's hard to show Brees/Russ traits with that roster. Those guys' OLs gave them more of a chance and they had WRs that could separate. He's looked better for sure though.

That being said,  I think he's only going to be "fine", which isn't good enough for a #1 pick, all they gave up to get him or their franchise to have success.

[minnesotacubsfan]

11 minutes ago, raw said:

I think Bryce will be fine. it's hard to show Brees/Russ traits with that roster. Those guys' OLs gave them more of a chance and they had WRs that could separate. He's looked better for sure though.

That being said,  I think he's only going to be "fine", which isn't good enough for a #1 pick, all they gave up to get him or their franchise to have success.

man I would NEVER draft a QB under 5-11, and I'm under 5-11

 

#shortdudesdontflingdarock

[Soul]

38 minutes ago, raw said:

I think Bryce will be fine. it's hard to show Brees/Russ traits with that roster. Those guys' OLs gave them more of a chance and they had WRs that could separate. He's looked better for sure though.

That being said,  I think he's only going to be "fine", which isn't good enough for a #1 pick, all they gave up to get him or their franchise to have success.

I thought he looked pretty bad and I’m not sure where they are going to find the supporting cast in time to see him grow up.  He had one really good throw and if I’m remembering right the Bears dropped a couple easy INTs.

[BigSlick]

Watching the Youtube QB guys run tape on Bagent's game and, despite knowing intellectually this was bound to happen when more teams had more tape on him, it's wild to see him shrivel and turn back into a pumpkin in this game. Even at his best, he was pretty limited, but he was accurate and decisive. In this game, he's late on decisions, makes obvious mistakes into coverage, and is wildly inaccurate. How does that happen? It's not just opposing defenses figuring you out. 

But we've seen it play out with countless QBs. So however it happens, we know it happens. It's possible we squeezed as much magical back up QB play out of this guy before he left his magic slippers at the castle. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by BigSlick

[minnesotacubsfan]

4 minutes ago, BigSlick said:

Watching the Youtube QB guys run tape on Bagent's game and, despite knowing intellectually this was bound to happen when more teams had more tape on him, it's wild to see him shrivel and turn back into a pumpkin in this game. Even at his best, he was pretty limited, but he was accurate and decisive. In this game, he's late on decisions, makes obvious mistakes into coverage, and is wildly inaccurate. How does that happen? It's not just opposing defenses figuring you out. 

But we've seen it play out with countless QBs. So however it happens, we know it happens. It's possible we squeezed as much magical back up QB play out of this guy before he left his magic slippers at the castle. 

Is it possible we put a kid into national spotlight who grew up in BFE

I think he's done unbelievably well, I think he'll be an amazing QB2 for Fields if we see the Fields we want to see. Other than that,,,,who knows

 

 

[Hairyducked Idiot]

22 minutes ago, BigSlick said:

Watching the Youtube QB guys run tape on Bagent's game and, despite knowing intellectually this was bound to happen when more teams had more tape on him, it's wild to see him shrivel and turn back into a pumpkin in this game. Even at his best, he was pretty limited, but he was accurate and decisive. In this game, he's late on decisions, makes obvious mistakes into coverage, and is wildly inaccurate. How does that happen? It's not just opposing defenses figuring you out. 

But we've seen it play out with countless QBs. So however it happens, we know it happens. It's possible we squeezed as much magical back up QB play out of this guy before he left his magic slippers at the castle. 

Teams are really taking away those quick 5-10 yard out routes he loves to throw.   I'm not an expert on defensive calls, but O'Sullivan keeps referring to it as a "cloud corner" staying shallow and covering that exact route.   Bagent threw a pick on it against San Diego, should have had at least one more that game, and then should have thrown one on the first series this week too.

You punish those coverages by throwing deep on the outside and intermediate across the middle, both of which Bagent has struggled mightily with.

It's just a classic case of NFL defenses saying "oh, you're good at this one thing? We'll take that away, now what?"  And Bagent can't answer that.

I *still* like him as a long-term, lottery-ticket project. I think his erratic and soft throws are a product of bad mechanics, not raw arm strength, and he might be able to clean that up wtih time.

[Soul]

42 minutes ago, minnesotacubsfan said:

Is it possible we put a kid into national spotlight who grew up in BFE

I think he's done unbelievably well, I think he'll be an amazing QB2 for Fields if we see the Fields we want to see. Other than that,,,,who knows

 

 

I did hear Bagent say after the game that Flus & staff were emphasizing no turnovers all week.

[minnesotacubsfan]

1 hour ago, Soul said:

I did hear Bagent say after the game that Flus & staff were emphasizing no turnovers all week.

I wouldn’t be shocked if he never played in the nfl either

[raw]

13 hours ago, BigSlick said:

Watching the Youtube QB guys run tape on Bagent's game and, despite knowing intellectually this was bound to happen when more teams had more tape on him, it's wild to see him shrivel and turn back into a pumpkin in this game. Even at his best, he was pretty limited, but he was accurate and decisive. In this game, he's late on decisions, makes obvious mistakes into coverage, and is wildly inaccurate. How does that happen? It's not just opposing defenses figuring you out. 

But we've seen it play out with countless QBs. So however it happens, we know it happens. It's possible we squeezed as much magical back up QB play out of this guy before he left his magic slippers at the castle. 

The last paragraph is possible, but just like any rookie, he has room to improve. I'm VERY encouraged by him as a long-term backup. Ideal scenario, he never sees the field again because the Bears have a much better QB that never gets injured. LOL

But since that isn't realistic, I think Bagent has shown enough that when he does have to play next time, if it's for the short-term, that he is competent. And competence goes a long way. If you do find that franchise QB, Bagent all of a sudden is a trade target that you can get assets for if a starting QB tears his ACL (Murray), Achilles (Rodgers, Cousins) or something else. We saw Dobbs go last week. I think Bagent is about at that level now. If he plays more in the future (preseason or real), he has the potential to raise his value to the level of guys like Matt Flynn or Matt Cassel back in the day. 

[raw]

13 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Teams are really taking away those quick 5-10 yard out routes he loves to throw.   I'm not an expert on defensive calls, but O'Sullivan keeps referring to it as a "cloud corner" staying shallow and covering that exact route.   Bagent threw a pick on it against San Diego, should have had at least one more that game, and then should have thrown one on the first series this week too.

You punish those coverages by throwing deep on the outside and intermediate across the middle, both of which Bagent has struggled mightily with.

It's just a classic case of NFL defenses saying "oh, you're good at this one thing? We'll take that away, now what?"  And Bagent can't answer that.

I *still* like him as a long-term, lottery-ticket project. I think his erratic and soft throws are a product of bad mechanics, not raw arm strength, and he might be able to clean that up wtih time.

You would think he would have more arm strength, considering his dad's living was literally made on arm strength. LOL

Honestly though, I think it's arm strength. Obviously, he has more arm strength than most people on the planet, and it's an NFL caliber arm, but it's at the very low end of that level. He's Gardner Minshew level. His feet are all over the place right now too. And the mechanics aren't near perfection, but I don't think that helps that much. He needs to be able to step into throws and get his whole body into the throw to get it where it needs to go distance and velocity wise. The elite arm guys can put that velocity on throws off their back foot. He'll never be able to do that, or throw into super tight windows. He has a Kyle Hendricks level fastball, and that's fine. But I don't think it gets much better.

[jersey cubs fan]

The one thing I’d like to see out of this is a commitment to drafting QBs regularly, if not every draft. Your backup should be a young guy with upside, not a journeyman with a $9million cap hit 

[Andy]

15 hours ago, raw said:

I think Bryce will be fine. it's hard to show Brees/Russ traits with that roster. Those guys' OLs gave them more of a chance and they had WRs that could separate. He's looked better for sure though.

That being said,  I think he's only going to be "fine", which isn't good enough for a #1 pick, all they gave up to get him or their franchise to have success.

They haven't scored over 24 points in a Bryce start yet. I've said it a million times, if there's something special about a QB, you're going to see it very quickly, even if only in short bursts, regardless of roster. There's been absolutely none of that with this guy. CJ Stroud is killing it with a bunch of receivers absolutely nobody had ever heard of 3 months ago, so any supporting cast talk falls on deaf ears with me.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Andy

[gflore34]

54 minutes ago, Andy said:

They haven't scored over 24 points in a Bryce start yet. I've said it a million times, if there's something special about a QB, you're going to see it very quickly, even if only in short bursts, regardless of roster. There's been absolutely none of that with this guy. CJ Stroud is killing it with a bunch of receivers absolutely nobody had ever heard of 3 months ago, so any supporting cast talk falls on deaf ears with me.

Herbstreit kept stressing Young' supporting cast, I agree, if you've got the goods.  Then the supporting cast doesn't have to be top notch, think all that's really necessary is a decent enough OL to keep the rush off.  Which, by the way, the Bears have.

[raw]

1 hour ago, Andy said:

They haven't scored over 24 points in a Bryce start yet. I've said it a million times, if there's something special about a QB, you're going to see it very quickly, even if only in short bursts, regardless of roster. There's been absolutely none of that with this guy. CJ Stroud is killing it with a bunch of receivers absolutely nobody had ever heard of 3 months ago, so any supporting cast talk falls on deaf ears with me.

I get it. I do think there have been QBs that didn't show many flashes as rookies that turned out to be decent. Jared Goff off the top of my head was one of the worst rookie QBs I've ever seen. Took him a while, but he became solid. That may be best case for Bryce at this point,