C+C Losing Factory (Thursday on Prime)

[Bearded_Beef]

"Poles has done a terrible job. He can’t be trusted to run this team."

That's the kind of pointless whining that irks me.  You talked about Sweat being garbage "without 3 other good d-lineman"  earlier in the thread too.  Stop trying so hard to be miserable.  Poles has been decent at worst.  He had a horsefeathers pile to start with and for some reason that seems very difficult for you to grasp.

[We Got The Whole 9]

2 minutes ago, Bearded_Beef said:

"Poles has done a terrible job. He can’t be trusted to run this team."

That's the kind of pointless whining that irks me.  You talked about Sweat being garbage "without 3 other good d-lineman"  earlier in the thread too.  Stop trying so hard to be miserable.  Poles has been decent at worst.  He had a horsefeathers pile to start with and for some reason that seems very difficult for you to grasp.

No Beef, he has been an F in Free Agency, and that is a large reason why the roster is so barren of good players. He punted 2 FA periods and left no option but to hit on draft picks, which is a seriously brazen strategy. He put his neck on the line as if he was Belichick. Only 2-3 of his picks have star potential, leaving so many starting spots taken by JAGs. He had plenty of resources to build a DL and get a pass rush. He spent too much on LBs, which are arguably the easiest position to fill. And his plethora of DBs look, fine. Not great but maybe decent. 

 

You're giving him way too much slack. He barely met the salary floor, which was a specific choice he made, and his roster sucks because of it. 

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It's weird to me how much praise tevin Jenkins is getting lately. I don't think he's terrible, but he gets beat cleanly plenty often, especially in the second half of games.

[Bearded_Beef]

21 minutes ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

No Beef, he has been an F in Free Agency, and that is a large reason why the roster is so barren of good players. He punted 2 FA periods and left no option but to hit on draft picks, which is a seriously brazen strategy. He put his neck on the line as if he was Belichick. Only 2-3 of his picks have star potential, leaving so many starting spots taken by JAGs. He had plenty of resources to build a DL and get a pass rush. He spent too much on LBs, which are arguably the easiest position to fill. And his plethora of DBs look, fine. Not great but maybe decent. 

 

You're giving him way too much slack. He barely met the salary floor, which was a specific choice he made, and his roster sucks because of it. 

Kind of all over the place here dude.  I don't hate any of his FA picks and I certianly wouldn't rate it an "F".  I dont hate Edmunds, or pine for Roquan like you guys all do, Edwards has been decent, Nate Davis was good when he wasn't injured and Andrew Billings has been very good.  As far as punting and barely meeting the salary floor, it sounds like you wanted him to buy a bunch of crap just to have a bunch of crap.  I'm glad that we have flexibility to trade for and sign guys like Sweat and I have faith that Ryan will use that flexibility on players that are actually worth it.

The stars are what hes been trading for, and hes been aggressive in doing so.  I said it before and Ill say it again, Moore and Sweat are studs.

[minnesotacubsfan]

14 hours ago, Irrelevant Dude said:

Seeing old man Frank Reich on the sidelines really makes me feel old.

speaking of..

I was reading an article (apple news wont let me get a direct link) about Jim Kelly, the Bills former QB and Reich's buddy. Kelly has been through a ton in the last decades, lost a son, got cancer and was given a 10% chance to live but survived, etc. In the article, they also talked about all of his plates and rods throughout his body from his nfl days, he's damn near a Civil War veteran. He's now a "Christian" which always makes me feel suspect, but man I feel for the guy

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by minnesotacubsfan

[minnesotacubsfan]

4 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

It's weird to me how much praise tevin Jenkins is getting lately. I don't think he's terrible, but he gets beat cleanly plenty often, especially in the second half of games.

well, he has played well in the last few games so I'm not sure what plays you're referring to. But also, on a team that lacks good storylines the commentators will find something positive even if it's our oft-injured OG. I noticed Kmet is also being heralded. now, if Kmet ends the season around 10 TDs and 750+ yards, I'll be happy with it tbh

 

 

[Tim]

18 minutes ago, Bearded_Beef said:

Kind of all over the place here dude.  I don't hate any of his FA picks and I certianly wouldn't rate it an "F".  I dont hate Edmunds, or pine for Roquan like you guys all do, Edwards has been decent, Nate Davis was good when he wasn't injured and Andrew Billings has been very good.  As far as punting and barely meeting the salary floor, it sounds like you wanted him to buy a bunch of crap just to have a bunch of crap.  I'm glad that we have flexibility to trade for and sign guys like Sweat and I have faith that Ryan will use that flexibility on players that are actually worth it.

The stars are what hes been trading for, and hes been aggressive in doing so.  I said it before and Ill say it again, Moore and Sweat are studs.

I wouldn't go as far as an "F" in free agency, but I'd probably go with a "D".

For example, he way over-invested in LB when he could have spent that money on the D-Line. There were several guys who would have made a big impact there this year. Then he wouldn't have had to use an early 2nd round pick to acquire (and then pay) Sweat. That's just a failure when it comes to allocating resources. 

For as much as we spent in FA, I can't think of a single impact-level guy he brought in. Yes, he had to spread that money out quite a bit because there were so many holes on the roster, but he has signed a whole bunch of meh.

Another example...the o-line was a massive concern coming into the year. Nate Davis was the big addition there. Yes, part of the reason he hasn't had an impact is that he's been hurt. But when you sign guys that have a history of being hurt and they get hurt, that's kind of on you for signing them. And even when he has played, he hasn't been all that great. 

Can you give any counter examples that stand out in his FA signings that would call for a better grade?

[Bearded_Beef]

15 minutes ago, Tim said:

I wouldn't go as far as an "F" in free agency, but I'd probably go with a "D".

For example, he way over-invested in LB when he could have spent that money on the D-Line. There were several guys who would have made a big impact there this year. Then he wouldn't have had to use an early 2nd round pick to acquire (and then pay) Sweat. That's just a failure when it comes to allocating resources. 

For as much as we spent in FA, I can't think of a single impact-level guy he brought in. Yes, he had to spread that money out quite a bit because there were so many holes on the roster, but he has signed a whole bunch of meh.

Another example...the o-line was a massive concern coming into the year. Nate Davis was the big addition there. Yes, part of the reason he hasn't had an impact is that he's been hurt. But when you sign guys that have a history of being hurt and they get hurt, that's kind of on you for signing them. And even when he has played, he hasn't been all that great. 

Can you give any counter examples that stand out in his FA signings that would call for a better grade?

Who would you have signed for D-line thats better than Sweat?  It seems like he invested in LB because that's where he saw surplus value and an availability of younger impact players, and those same kind of players were not available on the D-Line with this FA class.  The O-line class this year was terrible too.  We have needed young talent pretty much everywhere on this team, because Poles started with less than nothing.  If we would've signed a bunch of B tier D-Lineman I feel like everyone would just be complaining about not signing Roquan.  I also don't get being upset over the concept of trading for and paying a guy, like that makes it all worse.  We paid the second so that we could ensure that we signed a premium, young DE who's excellent in stopping the run and good at getting to the QB.  Those guys don't make it to FA very often for a reason.

I kind of laid it out in the post that you quoted, but I like Edmunds, Edwards and Billings in particular.  D'onta Foreman is looking like a good pickup.  Poles certainly hasn't crippled us with any bad contracts in the process either, so I think that's even more room for optimism as long as he keeps slowly and steadily adding the way that he has.  I feel like we're purposefully not getting our stars through FA and everyone is kind of missing that point somehow.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Bearded_Beef

[Brian707]

Poles being labeled decent at worst is quite the take.

 

Pretty much what Tim said are my reasons too.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Brian707

[Hairyducked Idiot]

4 minutes ago, Bearded_Beef said:

Who would you have signed for D-line thats better than Sweat?  It seems like he invested in LB because that's where he saw surplus value and an availability of younger impact players, and those same kind of players were not available on the D-Line with this FA class.  The O-line class this year was terrible too.  We have needed young talent pretty much everywhere on this team, because Poles started with less than nothing.  If we would've signed a bunch of B tier D-Lineman I feel like everyone would just be complaining about not signing Roquan.  I also don't get being upset over the concept of trading for and paying a guy, like that makes it all worse.  We paid the second so that we could ensure that we signed a premium, young DE who's excellent in stopping the run and good at getting to the QB.  Those guys don't make it to FA very often for a reason.

I kind of laid it out in the post that you quoted, but I like Edmunds, Edwards and Billings in particular.  D'onta Foreman is looking like a good pickup.  Poles certainly hasn't crippled us with any bad contracts in the process either, so I think that's even more room for optimism as long as he keeps slowly and steadily adding the way that he has.  I feel like we're purposefully not getting our stars through FA and everyone is kind of missing that point somehow.

You're basically overrating every single player poles has acquired.  If you call all the good players great, all the average players good, and all the bad players adequate, it *feels* like you're being reasonable. But the resutls on the field will never match your evaluations.

[Bearded_Beef]

2 minutes ago, Brian707 said:

Poles being labeled decent at worst is quite the take.

 

Pretty much what Tim said are my reasons too.

So far the argument has been that he sucked at FA, even though I disagree.  I'd say Brisker and Gordon still look like they could be something.  Wright and Jones were great draft picks.  He somehow added a bonafide #1 WR and a great DE.  He has stocked draft picks and avoided bad contracts.  Not sure what you guys are looking at.  Poles has been fine, and I'd argue theres good reason for optimism with him.

Seems to me like everyone here forgot the Pace era and expected a young GM to come in, be perfect and preform miracles.

[Bearded_Beef]

1 minute ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

You're basically overrating every single player poles has acquired.  If you call all the good players great, all the average players good, and all the bad players adequate, it *feels* like you're being reasonable. But the resutls on the field will never match your evaluations.

Yeah you're another dude who has just basically horsefeathers on anything that they do, though I know thats kind of your thing.  Who did I call great?  In the post that you're quoting I just said those guys were "good pickups"

I do think Moore and Sweat are "great", but Im not looking to have one of your sematic discussions that go on for 4 pages

[Brian707]

4 minutes ago, Bearded_Beef said:

Seems to me like everyone here forgot the Pace era and expected a young GM to come in, be perfect and preform miracles.

 Ah, whataboutism exists when talking sports too.

[Bearded_Beef]

1 minute ago, Brian707 said:

 Ah, whataboutism exists when talking sports too.

Someone needs to refine their understanding of whataboutism

Edited November 10, 2023 by Bearded_Beef

[Hairyducked Idiot]

4 minutes ago, Bearded_Beef said:

So far the argument has been that he sucked at FA, even though I disagree.  I'd say Brisker and Gordon still look like they could be something.  Wright and Jones were great draft picks.  He somehow added a bonafide #1 WR and a great DE.  He has stocked draft picks and avoided bad contracts.  Not sure what you guys are looking at.  Poles has been fine, and I'd argue theres good reason for optimism with him.

Seems to me like everyone here forgot the Pace era and expected a young GM to come in, be perfect and preform miracles.

Gordon is a terrible corner, Brisker is a run-only safety who  contributes heavily to us getting torched repeatedly by every decent QB, and Jones is a decent value but at the absolute wrong position to be trying to sneak value out of.

I remember the Pace era quite vividly.  He started out with a tear-down rebuild and when he was criticized, people said "it's not his fault, he was starting out in such a bad spot from his predecessor."  Much like you're saying.

Then when the crack started to show and he started overpaying for guys to fill those cracks, people said "look, he's getting us great players, don't worry about how much he's paying for them."  Much like you are now.

Trading for Sweat was the most Pace-ian thing Poles has ever done.

[Brian707]

1 minute ago, Bearded_Beef said:

Someone needs to refine their understanding of whataboutism

 

Nah, Pace sucked, Poles isn't much better and you inserted him into an argument for no reason.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

5 minutes ago, Bearded_Beef said:

Yeah you're another dude who has just basically horsefeathers on anything that they do, though I know thats kind of your thing.  Who did I call great?  In the post that you're quoting I just said those guys were "good pickups"

I do think Moore and Sweat are "great", but Im not looking to have one of your sematic discussions that go on for 4 pages

The Bears have been one of the worst franchises in the league for quite a few years now.  The people who are constantly saying negative things about them are doing it not because we're meanieheads, but because we're astute.

You're *massively* overrating Sweat, a guy whose career high in sacks before this year was 8.5, and only started racking them up this year when playing on a stacked Washington line.

[Bearded_Beef]

3 minutes ago, Brian707 said:

 

Nah, Pace sucked, Poles isn't much better and you inserted him into an argument for no reason.

There's a perfectly good reason.  You just actually have to read to connect the dots.  I'll leave that to you though.

[Bearded_Beef]

4 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Gordon is a terrible corner, Brisker is a run-only safety who  contributes heavily to us getting torched repeatedly by every decent QB, and Jones is a decent value but at the absolute wrong position to be trying to sneak value out of.

I remember the Pace era quite vividly.  He started out with a tear-down rebuild and when he was criticized, people said "it's not his fault, he was starting out in such a bad spot from his predecessor."  Much like you're saying.

Then when the crack started to show and he started overpaying for guys to fill those cracks, people said "look, he's getting us great players, don't worry about how much he's paying for them."  Much like you are now.

Trading for Sweat was the most Pace-ian thing Poles has ever done.

Again, where did I call the crack fillers "great" here?  You're straw manning left and right, and associating me with previous arguments from different people from a different year.  You yourself have acknowledged that Pace traded away the future for "win-now".  Poles had to try and course correct a dearth of talent, youth and resources.

[Brian707]

4 minutes ago, Bearded_Beef said:

There's a perfectly good reason.  You just actually have to read to connect the dots.  I'll leave that to you though.

Nah, you sound like that Y2K guy in the other thread. Keep getting backed into a corner and go the whataboutism route

[Bearded_Beef]

4 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

The Bears have been one of the worst franchises in the league for quite a few years now.  The people who are constantly saying negative things about them are doing it not because we're meanieheads, but because we're astute.

You're *massively* overrating Sweat, a guy whose career high in sacks before this year was 8.5, and only started racking them up this year when playing on a stacked Washington line.

You act like sacks are the be all end all of stats here.  Nobody thinks you're a meaniehead, I personally think that you and Jersey in particular sound miserable and look for reasons to be miserable when it comes to the bears.  I get it, it's been a miserable franchise to be a fan of, but you guys seem to have difficultly celebrating any good thing the team might have going for them.  And you add and remove context to fit your narratives

You've been trying to horsefeathers on Sweat since he got here, excitedly talking about how much he sucks at the start of each game and growing quiet about him as the game progresses.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

1 minute ago, Bearded_Beef said:

You act like sacks are the be all end all of stats here.  Nobody thinks you're a meaniehead, I personally think that you and Jersey in particular sound miserable and look for reasons to be miserable when it comes to the bears.  I get it, it's been a miserable franchise to be a fan of, but you guys seem to have difficultly celebrating any good thing the team might have going for them.  And you add and remove context to fit your narratives

You've been trying to horsefeathers on Sweat since he got here, excitedly talking about how much he sucks at the start of each game and growing quiet about him as the game progresses.

People who have weird emotional biases like you do tend to project those biases onto everyone else.

I have literally no idea what you're talking about with regard to being quiet about sweat during games.  He's been exactly who I expected him to be:  An above-average but not special defensive end.

[jersey cubs fan]

1 hour ago, Bearded_Beef said:

"Poles has done a terrible job. He can’t be trusted to run this team."

That's the kind of pointless whining that irks me.  You talked about Sweat being garbage "without 3 other good d-lineman"  earlier in the thread too.  Stop trying so hard to be miserable.  Poles has been decent at worst.  He had a horsefeathers pile to start with and for some reason that seems very difficult for you to grasp.

You are terrible at reading and way too forgiving of awful management. 

[Hairyducked Idiot]

7 minutes ago, Bearded_Beef said:

Again, where did I call the crack fillers "great" here?  You're straw manning left and right, and associating me with previous arguments from different people from a different year.  You yourself have acknowledged that Pace traded away the future for "win-now".  Poles had to try and course correct a dearth of talent, youth and resources.

Poles didn't start making the win-now trades on his first day. He started out the same way as Pace did.

Paying draft capital for the mere privilege of paying market-value cap space to Sweat is the *exact* sort of "win-now" move that tanked Pace.

[jersey cubs fan]

15 minutes ago, Bearded_Beef said:

You act like sacks are the be all end all of stats here.  Nobody thinks you're a meaniehead, I personally think that you and Jersey in particular sound miserable and look for reasons to be miserable when it comes to the bears.  I get it, it's been a miserable franchise to be a fan of, but you guys seem to have difficultly celebrating any good thing the team might have going for them.  And you add and remove context to fit your narratives

You've been trying to horsefeathers on Sweat since he got here, excitedly talking about how much he sucks at the start of each game and growing quiet about him as the game progresses.

A) I didn’t watch Sweats first game and was driving home from Vermont listening to radio and not commenting on this website. 
B) Sweat did nothing early in this game and I commented on it, he had one or two nice plays later, but Young was panicking without pressure in his face so it was tough to judge any of those guys. 
C) I’m shitting on Poles. He’s mismanaged resources and time since he got here. He’s done a poor job but has gotten the benefit of the doubt because a certain segment applauds losing on purpose. Sweat is fine. He’s overpaid and they gave up too much to get him because Poles did nothing to address a known problem. But he’s fine. Better than the free agents Poles signed at the very least.
D) claiming that bears fans have to look for reasons to be miserable is a remarkably silly thing to do, when the Bears have done nothing to give fans a reason for being happy with their results. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by jersey cubs fan