Cubs offseason chit chat...

[SOFNR]

2 minutes ago, gocubs218 said:

wild

That's pretty interesting.  So the team is stuck with the 4/53 if he totally bombs or gets injured. But that's not really much of a hit, and if he's great 5/80 will be a steal. Pretty interesting setup. Definitely better for the team then a traditional opt out. I'm curious if there's more incentives built in too like they made it sound last night. Also, what's the CBT hit? 13.25?

[Rcal10]

28 minutes ago, LBiittner said:

The playoff possibility was lost thru a number of reasons: Ross continually playing hosmer, playing mancini, not using luke little late in the season along with many more Ross decisions. They technically lost by one freaking game from the playoffs. I just cited probably 3 names that could've changed the Cubs record by more than one freaking game. 

The conversation to Rcal was originally about a closer. You did a pirouette to pen arms.  Big Dif.

 

Simplest route to the playoffs was Swanson catching the deflection of Wesneski’s backside in Arizona. He does that and the Cubs are in and Az is out, even with all the bad decisions to that point. 

[LBiittner]

7 minutes ago, Rcal10 said:

Simplest route to the playoffs was Swanson catching the deflection of Wesneski’s backside in Arizona. He does that and the Cubs are in and Az is out, even with all the bad decisions to that point. 

Good call. 

[Bull]

3 hours ago, ILMindState said:

The hold is is Boras. Its always been Boras. Most of his other clients haven't signed either. It's just how he does business. It's not that deep. 

Yes, but if not for QO these guys would get what Boras is “seeking”. QO’s depress a free agent’s value, especially to a team losing picks. It’s what they’re designed to do.

I think labor fights to have them eliminated in the next CBA.

It’s a lot “deeper” than the average fan can grasp. The Cubs ownership is one of the leaders in pushing for luxury tax and any mechanism they can find to depress player value/cost. It isn’t that PTR is actually poor. You understand that, right? It’s that he is colluding. And it’s why he doesn’t spit on the tax, or the QO.

Edited January 11, 2024 by Bull

[ILMindState]

14 minutes ago, Bull said:

Yes, but if not for QO these guys would get what Boras is “seeking”. QO’s depress a free agent’s value, especially to a team losing picks. It’s what they’re designed to do.

I think labor fights to have them eliminated in the next CBA.

It’s a lot “deeper” than the average fan can grasp. The Cubs ownership is one of the leaders in pushing for luxury tax and any mechanism they can find to depress player value/cost. It isn’t that PTR is actually poor. You understand that, right? It’s that he is colluding. And it’s why he doesn’t spit on the tax, or the QO.

Rhys Hoskins, Jordan Montgomery, and JD Martinez are unsigned Boras clients that don’t have a QO attached to them. Sure the QO impacts decisions but this is far from collusion. It’s Scott Boras asking for too much money. 

[LBiittner]

8 minutes ago, ILMindState said:

Rhys Hoskins, Jordan Montgomery, and JD Martinez are unsigned Boras clients that don’t have a QO attached to them. Sure the QO impacts decisions but this is far from collusion. It’s Scott Boras asking for too much money. 

If I recall, the Phillies declined to offer Hoskins 20m. So do you think his fair market would be roughly what Jed paid Belli last year? 

[Rcal10]

12 minutes ago, ILMindState said:

Rhys Hoskins, Jordan Montgomery, and JD Martinez are unsigned Boras clients that don’t have a QO attached to them. Sure the QO impacts decisions but this is far from collusion. It’s Scott Boras asking for too much money. 

I don’t agree that the QO is that big a deal. But I think the owners are holding down salaries while they make record profits. The owners are playing based on self made rules to police themselves and keep spending down. 

[Randall Simon]

1 hour ago, Rcal10 said:

Simplest route to the playoffs was Swanson catching the deflection of Wesneski’s backside in Arizona. He does that and the Cubs are in and Az is out, even with all the bad decisions to that point. 

Or if Seiya could catch a fly ball in Atlanta 

[ILMindState]

39 minutes ago, LBiittner said:

If I recall, the Phillies declined to offer Hoskins 20m. So do you think his fair market would be roughly what Jed paid Belli last year? 

MLBTR is projecting 2/36 and Belli made 17.5 last year so that sounds about right. 

37 minutes ago, Rcal10 said:

I don’t agree that the QO is that big a deal. But I think the owners are holding down salaries while they make record profits. The owners are playing based on self made rules to police themselves and keep spending down. 

A lot of owners are cheap but collusion would mean all of the owners are colluding to not spend money. Maybe the Dodgers didn’t get the email. 

[ILMindState]

17 minutes ago, Randall Simon said:

Or if Seiya could catch a fly ball in Atlanta 

Or Ian Happ in Colorado 

[Rcal10]

19 minutes ago, Randall Simon said:

Or if Seiya could catch a fly ball in Atlanta 

That is one game. They still tie Az and lose tiebreaker. If they beat Az one time with that one play they gain 2 games on Az. That is why that play mattered more. 

[Stratos]

del

Edited January 11, 2024 by Stratos

[Transmogrified Tiger]

2 hours ago, Bull said:

Yes, but if not for QO these guys would get what Boras is “seeking”. QO’s depress a free agent’s value, especially to a team losing picks. It’s what they’re designed to do.

I think labor fights to have them eliminated in the next CBA.

It’s a lot “deeper” than the average fan can grasp. The Cubs ownership is one of the leaders in pushing for luxury tax and any mechanism they can find to depress player value/cost. It isn’t that PTR is actually poor. You understand that, right? It’s that he is colluding. And it’s why he doesn’t spit on the tax, or the QO.

If teams and the Boras clients were only a QO value apart, they'd probably have signed by now.  7 players got the QO, 3 of them Boras clients.  The 3 Boras clients and the closer are the ones still unsigned.  Yes, the QO is designed to suppress FA contracts, but it is not the reason there are this many still unsigned in mid-January.

[thawv]

15 hours ago, 1908_Cubs said:

I'm not surprised, I doubt the Cubs would spend a draft pick and a $15m+ deal on a closer.

If Brown isn't going to be in the rotation, I'd like to see Little and Brown being the back end of the pen. 

[Jason Ross]

32 minutes ago, thawv said:

If Brown isn't going to be in the rotation, I'd like to see Little and Brown being the back end of the pen. 

Brown probably won't be ready until July regardless. We'll see where he fits in. A lot of this will come down to his fastball command. But yes, if he ends up in the pen, he's got back-end leverage stuff.

[Bull]

9 hours ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

If teams and the Boras clients were only a QO value apart, they'd probably have signed by now.  7 players got the QO, 3 of them Boras clients.  The 3 Boras clients and the closer are the ones still unsigned.  Yes, the QO is designed to suppress FA contracts, but it is not the reason there are this many still unsigned in mid-January.

Not the reason. But I maintain it is a reason. And really that wasn't my point. My response was to a poster who said "it's not that deep." There is a depth to these things that a typical fan doesn't understand. I'm not arrogant/naive enough to think I understand as much as people like you, Cali, and 1908 do.

My point was less about the QO and more about the collusion-iness. Ricketts want the QO to have a role in suppressing value, so to him it does. He's the far end of the spectrum as management. Boras is at the far end of the spectrum as Labor. He refuses to believe that it has/should have any effect on the values of the players he represents. ITs significant that these are Cubs targets. It's significant that these are Boras clients. Ricketts and Boras are the strangest of bedfellows especially regarding any topic debated in the CBA, such as luxury tax and QO.

[CubinNY]

2 hours ago, Bull said:

Not the reason. But I maintain it is a reason. And really that wasn't my point. My response was to a poster who said "it's not that deep." There is a depth to these things that a typical fan doesn't understand. I'm not arrogant/naive enough to think I understand as much as people like you, Cali, and 1908 do.

My point was less about the QO and more about the collusion-iness. Ricketts want the QO to have a role in suppressing value, so to him it does. He's the far end of the spectrum as management. Boras is at the far end of the spectrum as Labor. He refuses to believe that it has/should have any effect on the values of the players he represents. ITs significant that these are Cubs targets. It's significant that these are Boras clients. Ricketts and Boras are the strangest of bedfellows especially regarding any topic debated in the CBA, such as luxury tax and QO.

I think the Ricketts and Jed are in lockstep. However, I think that the QO thing is more of a Jed issue than it is a Ricketts issue. i have a hard time believing the kids are that invested in the draft and draft philosophy. 

[Transmogrified Tiger]

4 minutes ago, TomtheBombadil said:

If we know something was done specifically to suppress the freest of markets, why does the one single reason nothing is happening always fall on the players and reps? This is like the 7th individual time this offseason alone someone not an owner is totally definitely responsible for how teams behave. It bugs me how we just roll over and show our tummy for these entities that would have us all dead if we weren’t more useful as their animals 

Tom it's Scott Boras doing his long-established playbook for what he thinks will get his clients the best deal, it's not the hunger games.  

[CubinNY]

✊ I've always said baseball is a microcosm of life. 

But really, this is about Boras using the only tools he has to try and get his people the best contract he can. But as I've said previously, he's not the villain in this story.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2024 by CubinNY

[Jason Ross]

I think the Almonte deal made it highly likely we wouldn't do a Brent Suter deal, but Suter signed with Cincinnati amongst the hubub of the big trade.

[Bertz]

FWIW - All of these are right in line with the MLBTR estimates though so nothing really changes

 

[ILMindState]

1 hour ago, Bertz said:

FWIW - All of these are right in line with the MLBTR estimates though so nothing really changes

 

Justin is a steal at that price

[ToolDRT]

1 hour ago, ILMindState said:

Justin is a steal at that price

I see what you did there 🤣

[PackLandVA]

1 hour ago, ILMindState said:

Justin is a steal at that price

 

17 minutes ago, ToolDRT said:

I see what you did there 🤣

 

Counterpoint - Justin is a steele at any price.

[Tryptamine]

Reds just greatly improved their pen by adding Stephenson and Suter.

 

 

Nvm, the guy meant Tyler Stephenson but used the wrong name......

Edited January 12, 2024 by Tryptamine