2014 Roster Discussion

[Sammy Sofa]

Im saying that was the two options the front office faced. You can suck with your old, expensive, bad roster and lose 100 games and get nowhere or you can suck with a bunch of fill ins, trade the old guys for whatever you can get, lose 100 games but be making incremental progress.

 

That is such a terrible opinion.

 

Not really; he's glossing over a lot of the details, but it's looking more and more like the Cubs didn't have a ton of options given the Ricketts'..."interesting" juggling of the money.

[imb]

I don't see how anything productive could have come out of trying to buy that 2012 team know contention. I mean the last time we had this discussion you had people saying things like "well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis Ramirez and it's done!"

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I don't see how anything productive could have come out of trying to buy that 2012 team know contention. I mean the last time we had this discussion you had people saying things like "well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis Ramirez and it's done!"

 

It'd have been hard. I wish we had a front office willing to try hard things.

[SouthSideRyan]

I don't see how anything productive could have come out of trying to buy that 2012 team know contention. I mean the last time we had this discussion you had people saying things like "well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis Ramirez and it's done!"

 

I believe last time we had this discussion it was things like well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis and maybe Anibel Sanchez doesn't refuse to sign with a [expletive] sandwich major league team.

 

As Mojo stated though, we couldn't afford that because reasons.

[captain_kickass]

I don't see how anything productive could have come out of trying to buy that 2012 team know contention. I mean the last time we had this discussion you had people saying things like "well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis Ramirez and it's done!"

 

It'd have been hard. I wish we had a front office willing to try hard things.

 

Completely stripping a team down and attempting to build a perennial contender via the farm system isn't a "hard" thing?

[Sammy Sofa]

I don't see how anything productive could have come out of trying to buy that 2012 team know contention. I mean the last time we had this discussion you had people saying things like "well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis Ramirez and it's done!"

 

It'd have been hard. I wish we had a front office willing to try hard things.

 

Come on; trying to rebuild largely via drafting and international FA signings and mostly shitty trades is hardly "easy." You're talking about like it's some kind of safe path to building a better team.

[imb]

I don't see how anything productive could have come out of trying to buy that 2012 team know contention. I mean the last time we had this discussion you had people saying things like "well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis Ramirez and it's done!"

 

I believe last time we had this discussion it was things like well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis and maybe Anibel Sanchez doesn't refuse to sign with a [expletive] sandwich major league team.

 

As Mojo stated though, we couldn't afford that because reasons.

 

We sign CJ wilson (we all know he wasn't coming here) and re-sign Aramis and what money are we signing animal Sanchez with?

 

Hand wave it away with "REASONS" all you want but this is the reality.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Hand wave it away with "REASONS" all you want

 

OK, I will.

[SouthSideRyan]

I don't see how anything productive could have come out of trying to buy that 2012 team know contention. I mean the last time we had this discussion you had people saying things like "well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis Ramirez and it's done!"

 

I believe last time we had this discussion it was things like well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis and maybe Anibel Sanchez doesn't refuse to sign with a [expletive] sandwich major league team.

 

As Mojo stated though, we couldn't afford that because reasons.

 

We sign CJ wilson (we all know he wasn't coming here) and re-sign Aramis and what money are we signing animal Sanchez with?

 

Hand wave it away with "REASONS" all you want but this is the reality.

 

Right, we get it. Tom Ricketts is terrible, what are you trying to convince me of?

Edited September 25, 2013 by SouthSideRyan

[imb]

That "re-sign Aramis, sign CJ Wilson and then get animal Sanchez," like you just posted and have talked about in the past, wasn't a possibility?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I don't see how anything productive could have come out of trying to buy that 2012 team know contention. I mean the last time we had this discussion you had people saying things like "well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis Ramirez and it's done!"

 

It'd have been hard. I wish we had a front office willing to try hard things.

 

Come on; trying to rebuild largely via drafting and international FA signings and mostly [expletive] trades is hardly "easy." You're talking about like it's some kind of safe path to building a better team.

 

It's the easiest thing in the world to try to do it that way. Put Da Bum in the GM's chair, tell him to try to lose as many games as possible and give an inordinately large percentage of the budget to amateur acquisitions, and he'll give you a top-5 farm system within a few years.

 

It's hard to actually convert that into a good team, but since they haven't actually done that yet, they don't get credit for it yet. We'll see.

[SouthSideRyan]

That "re-sign Aramis, sign CJ Wilson and then get animal Sanchez," like you just posted and have talked about in the past, wasn't a possibility?

 

Well re-signing Aramis and signing Wilson wasn't even possible under Ricketts's payroll.

[SouthSideRyan]

Why we're not allowed to say holy [expletive] this sucks when Ricketts has forced the team to be terrible for years because of his cheapness is beyond me.

[imb]

That "re-sign Aramis, sign CJ Wilson and then get animal Sanchez," like you just posted and have talked about in the past, wasn't a possibility?

 

Well re-signing Aramis and signing Wilson wasn't even possible under Ricketts's payroll.

 

Right. So what was the point of "sign Aramis and CJ Wilson and animal Sanchez might have come here" that you posted like 7 minutes ago?

[SouthSideRyan]

That "re-sign Aramis, sign CJ Wilson and then get animal Sanchez," like you just posted and have talked about in the past, wasn't a possibility?

 

Well re-signing Aramis and signing Wilson wasn't even possible under Ricketts's payroll.

 

Right. So what was the point of "sign Aramis and CJ Wilson and animal Sanchez might have come here" that you posted like 7 minutes ago?

 

That the reason the team needed to be torn down had nothing to do with the way to rebuild a team and everything to do with Tom Ricketts being the 28th-29th best owner in baseball?

[Sammy Sofa]

I don't see how anything productive could have come out of trying to buy that 2012 team know contention. I mean the last time we had this discussion you had people saying things like "well sign CJ Wilson and Aramis Ramirez and it's done!"

 

It'd have been hard. I wish we had a front office willing to try hard things.

 

Come on; trying to rebuild largely via drafting and international FA signings and mostly [expletive] trades is hardly "easy." You're talking about like it's some kind of safe path to building a better team.

 

It's the easiest thing in the world to try to do it that way. Put Da Bum in the GM's chair, tell him to try to lose as many games as possible and give an inordinately large percentage of the budget to amateur acquisitions, and he'll give you a top-5 farm system within a few years.

 

It's hard to actually convert that into a good team, but since they haven't actually done that yet, they don't get credit for it yet. We'll see.

 

By those standards giving da Bum $150 million and telling him to put together a baseball team is easy. But, hey, look at that; whether or not you can actually make it work is the hard part.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

By those standards giving da Bum $150 million and telling him to put together a baseball team is easy. But, hey, look at that; whether or not you can actually make it work is the hard part.

 

When they actually make it work, they'll get some credit. But they haven't yet, so they get exactly the same amount of credit as Da Bum.

[imb]

That "re-sign Aramis, sign CJ Wilson and then get animal Sanchez," like you just posted and have talked about in the past, wasn't a possibility?

 

Well re-signing Aramis and signing Wilson wasn't even possible under Ricketts's payroll.

 

Right. So what was the point of "sign Aramis and CJ Wilson and animal Sanchez might have come here" that you posted like 7 minutes ago?

 

That the reason the team needed to be torn down had nothing to do with the way to rebuild a team and everything to do with Tom Ricketts being the 28th-29th best owner in baseball?

 

The team didn't have to be torn down because the roster was expensive, old, sucked and was going to be bad for a long time, but those guys were all leaving eventually, might as well kickstart it since the owner isn't giving the front office any money to play with.

[Guest]

The 2013 team is improved by 1 WAR, maybe less, by having added Ramirez and Wilson, and would have cost 21 million this year and 36 million next year. Sanchez is a different story with his career year, but I'm not sure +6 wins this year at the cost of 37 and then 52 million is the utopian scenario here. Even if Rizzo and Castro had met expectations you're basically already running at a Hendry-era payroll and struggling to get to 80 wins.

[Sammy Sofa]

That "re-sign Aramis, sign CJ Wilson and then get animal Sanchez," like you just posted and have talked about in the past, wasn't a possibility?

 

Well re-signing Aramis and signing Wilson wasn't even possible under Ricketts's payroll.

 

Right. So what was the point of "sign Aramis and CJ Wilson and animal Sanchez might have come here" that you posted like 7 minutes ago?

 

That the reason the team needed to be torn down had nothing to do with the way to rebuild a team and everything to do with Tom Ricketts being the 28th-29th best owner in baseball?

 

Man, I don't even know how we got on the "should they have competed in 2012 or not" nonsense, but this at least touches on the main thing I've been trying to say since this mess started; the idea that they "needed" to trade the old team before moving forward is just a strawman of an idea. Most of those guys were either trending horribly in the wrong direction or were at the end of their deals; they likely would be gone in some fashion within a similar timeframe regardless of who was in charge and you weren't going to save much money in doing so. Marshall's trade sticks out from that (the Cashner move is a whole other thing), and maybe Garza's, but even there you're talking about a player that the FO had actually tried to extend prior to actually trading him. The rest were just old or fizzling out players that weren't preventing them from doing the key things they need to do; draft and draft well. The teams have just stunk just because players didn't play well and they didn't have a lot of money available to them, not because they were trying to burn off Hendry's stank.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Sammy Sofa

[Guest]

Why we're not allowed to say holy [expletive] this sucks when Ricketts has forced the team to be terrible for years because of his cheapness is beyond me.

 

FWIW, to me this sequence has been a lot more constructive than what I was complaining about earlier.

[davell]

Why we're not allowed to say holy [expletive] this sucks when Ricketts has forced the team to be terrible for years because of his cheapness is beyond me.

Bingo. And Kyle, I thought I just saw you mention that even with the financial restrictions, a contender could have been put out on the field. Sorry, but even you haven't gone that far yet. I've seen plenty of "if we had done this and that, well then maybe" stuff, but it wasn't EVER done with a truly restricted payroll, as we certainly have.

 

So, either clarify, tell me I misread you, or actually come up with something that's reasonable(not literally looking back and getting every single FA that produced cheaply, since there happens to be 29 other teams in MLB) If you can't and go with "well, they're the ones getting paid to do this" I'll know you were just talking out of your ass.

[Sammy Sofa]

By those standards giving da Bum $150 million and telling him to put together a baseball team is easy. But, hey, look at that; whether or not you can actually make it work is the hard part.

 

When they actually make it work, they'll get some credit. But they haven't yet, so they get exactly the same amount of credit as Da Bum.

 

Look, I'm as negative as you can get about this, but turning the farm system around like they have is hardly nothing. I've been very clear that until it actually starts paying off via big trades or players breaking out there's still a lot to prove, but it's not like they've just been throwing darts at lists of players and just accumulating bodies. The system is being ranked and looked at as it is now because of the really good job they've done so far, and that's not easy.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Why we're not allowed to say holy [expletive] this sucks when Ricketts has forced the team to be terrible for years because of his cheapness is beyond me.

Bingo. And Kyle, I thought I just saw you mention that even with the financial restrictions, a contender could have been put out on the field. Sorry, but even you haven't gone that far yet. I've seen plenty of "if we had done this and that, well then maybe" stuff, but it wasn't EVER done with a truly restricted payroll, as we certainly have.

 

So, either clarify, tell me I misread you, or actually come up with something that's reasonable(not literally looking back and getting every single FA that produced cheaply, since there happens to be 29 other teams in MLB) If you can't and go with "well, they're the ones getting paid to do this" I'll know you were just talking out of your ass.

 

Sorry, I've been doing alternative offseasons for literally years now, and I'm done with them. It involves hours and hours of work, only to have the person decide "Well, you used all these parameters I set out, but there's one more I just thought of that you didn't, so it's all invalid."

[jersey cubs fan]

Look, I'm as negative as you can get about this, but turning the farm system around like they have is hardly nothing.

 

Given the lack of an actual dual mandate, and the fact that most other teams actually try to be good at the major league level, I really don't think it is that impressive. A fair amount of the big names were already here, most notably Vogelbach and Baez. The most refined blue chipper they have is only here because they were allowed to take a dive in 2012. They have thrown much more money at the farm than other teams in recent years and have been the most active in terms of trading veterans for prospects. I really don't think that making a farm system climb the rankings while focusing exclusively on the farm and abandoning the major league team is all that difficult.