2014 Roster Discussion

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Look, I'm as negative as you can get about this, but turning the farm system around like they have is hardly nothing. I've been very clear that until it actually starts paying off via big trades or players breaking out there's still a lot to prove, but it's not like they've just been throwing darts at lists of players and just accumulating bodies. The system is being ranked and looked at as it is now because of the really good job they've done so far, and that's not easy.

 

The only thing they've done so far in terms of picking up amateur/minor-league talent that couldn't have been done by almost literally every other professional baseball executive with the same mandate is the 2013 trading deadline, when I thought they did a really nice job reading the market and dealing at the right times.

[Sammy Sofa]

Look, I'm as negative as you can get about this, but turning the farm system around like they have is hardly nothing.

 

Given the lack of an actual dual mandate, and the fact that most other teams actually try to be good at the major league level, I really don't think it is that impressive. A fair amount of the big names were already here, most notably Vogelbach and Baez. The most refined blue chipper they have is only here because they were allowed to take a dive in 2012. They have thrown much more money at the farm than other teams in recent years and have been the most active in terms of trading veterans for prospects. I really don't think that making a farm system climb the rankings while focusing exclusively on the farm and abandoning the major league team is all that difficult.

 

We just disagree on this; I don't see it as nothing.

[Soul]

Look, I'm as negative as you can get about this, but turning the farm system around like they have is hardly nothing.

 

Given the lack of an actual dual mandate, and the fact that most other teams actually try to be good at the major league level, I really don't think it is that impressive. A fair amount of the big names were already here, most notably Vogelbach and Baez. The most refined blue chipper they have is only here because they were allowed to take a dive in 2012. They have thrown much more money at the farm than other teams in recent years and have been the most active in terms of trading veterans for prospects. I really don't think that making a farm system climb the rankings while focusing exclusively on the farm and abandoning the major league team is all that difficult.

 

We just disagree on this; I don't see it as nothing.

 

It's not nothing, but it's like focusing on only half of your job. Of course you would do better at it.

[Guest]

Look, I'm as negative as you can get about this, but turning the farm system around like they have is hardly nothing.

 

Given the lack of an actual dual mandate, and the fact that most other teams actually try to be good at the major league level, I really don't think it is that impressive. A fair amount of the big names were already here, most notably Vogelbach and Baez. The most refined blue chipper they have is only here because they were allowed to take a dive in 2012. They have thrown much more money at the farm than other teams in recent years and have been the most active in terms of trading veterans for prospects. I really don't think that making a farm system climb the rankings while focusing exclusively on the farm and abandoning the major league team is all that difficult.

 

then why doesn't every team with a 105 million dollar payroll or worse have a great farm system? saying they "abandoned" the major league team is ridiculous. they spent a lot of money last offseason.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

then why doesn't every team with a 105 million dollar payroll or worse have a great farm system?

 

Because they haven't perversely decided that having a great farm system is more important than winning MLB games.

[Sammy Sofa]

Look, I'm as negative as you can get about this, but turning the farm system around like they have is hardly nothing.

 

Given the lack of an actual dual mandate, and the fact that most other teams actually try to be good at the major league level, I really don't think it is that impressive. A fair amount of the big names were already here, most notably Vogelbach and Baez. The most refined blue chipper they have is only here because they were allowed to take a dive in 2012. They have thrown much more money at the farm than other teams in recent years and have been the most active in terms of trading veterans for prospects. I really don't think that making a farm system climb the rankings while focusing exclusively on the farm and abandoning the major league team is all that difficult.

 

We just disagree on this; I don't see it as nothing.

 

It's not nothing, but it's like focusing on only half of your job. Of course you would do better at it.

 

It's becoming more and more clear that it's largely been a matter of necessity given the Ricketts' financial liabilities.

[Guest]

then why doesn't every team with a 105 million dollar payroll or worse have a great farm system?

 

Because they haven't perversely decided that having a great farm system is more important than winning MLB games.

 

so we're just going to pretend like the cubs didn't spend a lot of money last offseason to make the major league team better?

 

and what exactly did they sacrifice to build the system? they passed on the highest priced free agents (the majority of which have gotten bad contracts), and then when they were out of it at the deadline, they sold off players who could all be replaced in the offseason.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

then why doesn't every team with a 105 million dollar payroll or worse have a great farm system?

 

Because they haven't perversely decided that having a great farm system is more important than winning MLB games.

 

so we're just going to pretend like the cubs didn't spend a lot of money last offseason to make the major league team better?

 

Not enough and they didn't spend it wisely enough, and they were still paying for the failures from the year before when they allowed the team to crater.

 

and what exactly did they sacrifice to build the system?

 

Two of the most important, scarcest assets that a baseball team is given and can never get back once squandered: Seasons.

[Guest]

oh i didn't realize that we're still pretending that the cubs could have been decent the last 2 seasons without giving out a bunch of awful contracts. even if we had gone after those guys, i don't see it.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

oh i didn't realize that we're still pretending that the cubs could have been decent the last 2 seasons without giving out a bunch of awful contracts. even if we had gone after those guys, i don't see it.

 

Yes, we're still "pretending" that.

[Sammy Sofa]

Two of the most important, scarcest assets that a baseball team is given and can never get back once squandered: Seasons.

 

http://i.qkme.me/3qqihm.jpg

[jersey cubs fan]

Look, I'm as negative as you can get about this, but turning the farm system around like they have is hardly nothing.

 

Given the lack of an actual dual mandate, and the fact that most other teams actually try to be good at the major league level, I really don't think it is that impressive. A fair amount of the big names were already here, most notably Vogelbach and Baez. The most refined blue chipper they have is only here because they were allowed to take a dive in 2012. They have thrown much more money at the farm than other teams in recent years and have been the most active in terms of trading veterans for prospects. I really don't think that making a farm system climb the rankings while focusing exclusively on the farm and abandoning the major league team is all that difficult.

 

We just disagree on this; I don't see it as nothing.

 

It's not nothing, but it's like focusing on only half of your job. Of course you would do better at it.

 

It's becoming more and more clear that it's largely been a matter of necessity given the Ricketts' financial liabilities.

 

The fact that it was a necessity does not make it any more impressive. They were given an opportunity that virtually no other big market management group has been given in recent years, don't worry, at all, about the major league team, just focus on making the farm system better. I also don't think it was "nothing", just not that impressive. If they made the farm appreciably better while also fielding a competent major league team, that would be impressive under these conditions.

[jersey cubs fan]

Look, I'm as negative as you can get about this, but turning the farm system around like they have is hardly nothing.

 

Given the lack of an actual dual mandate, and the fact that most other teams actually try to be good at the major league level, I really don't think it is that impressive. A fair amount of the big names were already here, most notably Vogelbach and Baez. The most refined blue chipper they have is only here because they were allowed to take a dive in 2012. They have thrown much more money at the farm than other teams in recent years and have been the most active in terms of trading veterans for prospects. I really don't think that making a farm system climb the rankings while focusing exclusively on the farm and abandoning the major league team is all that difficult.

 

then why doesn't every team with a 105 million dollar payroll or worse have a great farm system? saying they "abandoned" the major league team is ridiculous. they spent a lot of money last offseason.

 

Most of them try to make the team better. If we are going to pretend they "tried" the last two years, they have to get knocked for failing miserably. They didn't try. They didn't have to. That's a pretty cushy position to be in for management groups of professional sports teams.

[Guest]

Rage all you want against Ricketts, but it seems pretty clear that Theo/Jed used the money they've been afforded. Unless you think paying a penalty in the draft and signing Soler is the difference between them getting Anibal Sanchez or something, the "not trying" rhetoric falls flat to me. If you really want to see what "not trying" looks like, look at Houston.

[imb]

Two of the most important, scarcest assets that a baseball team is given and can never get back once squandered: Seasons.

 

what buster olney tweet did u get that from bro

[Sammy Sofa]

The fact that it was a necessity does not make it any more impressive. They were given an opportunity that virtually no other big market management group has been given in recent years, don't worry, at all, about the major league team, just focus on making the farm system better. I also don't think it was "nothing", just not that impressive. If they made the farm appreciably better while also fielding a competent major league team, that would be impressive under these conditions.

 

But they didn't, so it's impressive under these conditions. Being able to focus on the farm system isn't a guarantee that the people in charge can actually succeed at making a good farm system. Like I said, there's still a lot to prove, but within the context of what's been done so far I find it relatively impressive.

[jersey cubs fan]

Rage all you want against Ricketts, but it seems pretty clear that Theo/Jed used the money they've been afforded. Unless you think paying a penalty in the draft and signing Soler is the difference between them getting Anibal Sanchez or something, the "not trying" rhetoric falls flat to me. If you really want to see what "not trying" looks like, look at Houston.

 

If this was trying I'm very scared.

 

 

Only an idiot would think they actually tried to field winning teams the past two years.

[imb]

Rage all you want against Ricketts, but it seems pretty clear that Theo/Jed used the money they've been afforded. Unless you think paying a penalty in the draft and signing Soler is the difference between them getting Anibal Sanchez or something, the "not trying" rhetoric falls flat to me. If you really want to see what "not trying" looks like, look at Houston.

 

If this was trying I'm very scared.

 

 

Only an idiot would think they actually tried to field winning teams the past two years.

 

No one does? They "tried" to put the team in the best position for the future after deciding it wasn't possible to win a world series with what they were given.

[Sammy Sofa]

Most of them try to make the team better. If we are going to pretend they "tried" the last two years, they have to get knocked for failing miserably. They didn't try. They didn't have to. That's a pretty cushy position to be in for management groups of professional sports teams.

 

They definitely "tried" this year. Were they putting out a team likely to win the division and kick a ton of ass? Of course not, but given what they had to work with I think they did a good job of putting together a team that on paper should have been hovering around .500 for a good chunk of the season. Obviously it didn't work out that way due to some key players really underperforming, but to talk about this season like they set out there shooting for another disastrous run is pretty disingenuous.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Most of them try to make the team better. If we are going to pretend they "tried" the last two years, they have to get knocked for failing miserably. They didn't try. They didn't have to. That's a pretty cushy position to be in for management groups of professional sports teams.

 

They definitely "tried" this year. Were they putting out a team likely to win the division and kick a ton of ass? Of course not, but given what they had to work with I think they did a good job of putting together a team that on paper should have been hovering around .500 for a good chunk of the season. Obviously it didn't work out that way due to some key players really underperforming, but to talk about this season like they set out there shooting for another disastrous run is pretty disingenuous.

 

I agree, but it might have been enough if they hadn't done such a miserable job the year before.

[Guest]

based on what they did last offseason, we all expected them to be competent going into opening day this season. again, saying they abandoned the major league team is just incorrect. they inherited a team that would have needed to spend huge in the last 2 offseasons to make them good immediately. just because they didn't/couldn't binge spend doesn't mean they abandoned the team.

 

it seems like a lot of people have done a complete 180 on baseball philosophy, just because we haven't been able to sign anybody for 100 million. instead of obsessing over 2 seasons that are already in the past, i'd rather be excited that

 

- we still have a healthy payroll (with lots of money to be spent this offseason)

- we have an awesome farm system with elite talent that is close to the majors

- we have an awesome front office

 

the payroll restrictions are vastly overstated on here.

[KingCubsFan]

Most of them try to make the team better. If we are going to pretend they "tried" the last two years, they have to get knocked for failing miserably. They didn't try. They didn't have to. That's a pretty cushy position to be in for management groups of professional sports teams.

 

They definitely "tried" this year. Were they putting out a team likely to win the division and kick a ton of ass? Of course not, but given what they had to work with I think they did a good job of putting together a team that on paper should have been hovering around .500 for a good chunk of the season. Obviously it didn't work out that way due to some key players really underperforming, but to talk about this season like they set out there shooting for another disastrous run is pretty disingenuous.

 

I agree, but it might have been enough if they hadn't done such a miserable job the year before.

For what? 80 wins? Who cares?

[Sammy Sofa]

- we still have a healthy payroll (with lots of money to be spent this offseason)

 

Well, but that speaks to the larger issue of how things are really working against them in terms of timing; yeah, they have money to spend, but it's on a really shitty FA class. I'm excited about the other stuff, but I have a feeling the spending is going to be pretty anti-climactic largely out of necessity (mainly a repeat of the kind of spending they did going in to 2013). Definitely can be useful, but this is really coming down to Castro and Rizzo bouncing back and the farm starting to pay off.

[Guest]

Why we're not allowed to say holy [expletive] this sucks when Ricketts has forced the team to be terrible for years because of his cheapness is beyond me.

Bingo. And Kyle, I thought I just saw you mention that even with the financial restrictions, a contender could have been put out on the field. Sorry, but even you haven't gone that far yet. I've seen plenty of "if we had done this and that, well then maybe" stuff, but it wasn't EVER done with a truly restricted payroll, as we certainly have.

 

So, either clarify, tell me I misread you, or actually come up with something that's reasonable(not literally looking back and getting every single FA that produced cheaply, since there happens to be 29 other teams in MLB) If you can't and go with "well, they're the ones getting paid to do this" I'll know you were just talking out of your ass.

 

Sorry, I've been doing alternative offseasons for literally years now, and I'm done with them. It involves hours and hours of work, only to have the person decide "Well, you used all these parameters I set out, but there's one more I just thought of that you didn't, so it's all invalid."

I went through that a few weeks ago with a reasonably realistic scenario.

[Guest]

isn't every fa class basically [expletive] now? you're more likely to get screwed on big free agents now than you are to get someone like darvish,