2014 Roster Discussion

[Guest]

What is their primary way of rebuilding the farm system? It should abundantly clear that that's being done mostly via drafting and international FA signings. Most of the trades of players from the "old team" have been largely incidental or for lesser role players/long shots/bodies.

Of the top 15 pitchers in the system, more than half have come through trades.

Which mostly speaks to how crappy the system was in regards to pitching prospects.

 

And again, where am I saying that they shouldn't have made these trades? My point is that saying they blew up the team is clearly incorrect, and that the Cubs haven't sucked for two years because of that mythical blow up.

 

....

 

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

Well, I think I was originally pointing out that you didn't know what your were talking about. Then, I was pointing out that you weren't acknowledging that you completely missed the point.

[Sammy Sofa]

Wait, so I've missed some other trades beyond those 6 trades of players from the "old team?"

 

Ah, so we're counting players being released or zilches who would have been gone regardless of whether the team was good or not as part of the fire sale. Good to know.

 

72 percent of 2012's cubs roster is no longer on the 40-man. if that doesn't count as a purge to you, well, i dont know what to say.

 

This whole thing started because a guy said that he expected the team to be bad for years because they had to "unwind the old team" ie-they had to divest themselves of the major league players inherited by the current FO to move forward. The 2012 team was constructed by the current FO; claiming that moves made after 2012 are part of the "unwinding" of the previous regime's team makes about as much sense as when Beer Kase included players like DeJesus and Maholm as part of the "unwinding" despite having been signed by the current FO.

 

Again, I'm not saying the Cubs shouldn't have moved on from older players, or saying that's the reason why they've been bad. Moving players or moving from them when the time is right is what we all want them to do; my issue is with the idea that the Cubs had to effectively burn things to the ground to move forward when that simply didn't happen. Trading those 7 (forgot that Marshall was traded by the current FO; definitely a good big move a la Dempster and Garza)players didn't free up anyone who was blocked, and only two of the trades really brought back anyone of real note. The main thrust of their rebuild has been through the draft and international FA signings and rearranging those 7trades over the last two years really wouldn't have had a ton of impact on that path. They simply didn't have a fire sale of valuable players from the previous regime because ultimately they really didn't have many.

[Sammy Sofa]

What is their primary way of rebuilding the farm system? It should abundantly clear that that's being done mostly via drafting and international FA signings. Most of the trades of players from the "old team" have been largely incidental or for lesser role players/long shots/bodies.

Of the top 15 pitchers in the system, more than half have come through trades.

Which mostly speaks to how crappy the system was in regards to pitching prospects.

 

And again, where am I saying that they shouldn't have made these trades? My point is that saying they blew up the team is clearly incorrect, and that the Cubs haven't sucked for two years because of that mythical blow up.

 

....

 

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

Well, I think I was originally pointing out that you didn't know what your were talking about. Then, I was pointing out that you weren't acknowledging that you completely missed the point.

 

I know they've gotten a bunch of their pitching prospects via trades. I also know it's been repeatedly stated here by multiple posters that until pretty recently the Cubs' pitching prospect selection was horrendous.

 

And again, I never was arguing against trading older players; my point is that the Cubs didn't acquire those traded-for prospects via a fire sale of the "old team." Trading Dempster in 2012 and Garza in 2013 when they are at the end of their contracts isn't a fire sale. Isn't that obvious?

[imb]

Trading Dempster in 2012 and Garza in 2013 when they are at the end of their contracts isn't a fire sale. Isn't that obvious?

 

lmao x2

[Sammy Sofa]

Hey, I guess my concept of a fire sale or whatever the [expletive] an unwinding of the old team is has been completely wrong.

[imb]

Hey, I guess my concept of a fire sale or whatever the [expletive] an unwinding of the old team is has been completely wrong.

 

undoubtedly

[Sammy Sofa]

Hey, I guess my concept of a fire sale or whatever the [expletive] an unwinding of the old team is has been completely wrong.

 

undoubtedly

 

Hey, so be it. Moving 7 players over 2.5 seasons just doesn't strike me as a fire sale, especially when the return on 4 of them was practically nothing. And the whole "they had to get rid of the old guys before they could rebuild for some reason or other" is just ridiculous. NOTE: this isn't me saying they should have held on to anyone or that this is why they've sucked or God knows what else. Having Carlos Marmol on the team until he was traded wasn't preventing the FO from rebuilding.

[imb]

Hey, I guess my concept of a fire sale or whatever the [expletive] an unwinding of the old team is has been completely wrong.

 

undoubtedly

 

Moving 7 players over 2.5 seasons just doesn't strike me as a fire sale.

 

well yeah, when you ignore 200 roster decisions and focus only on 7 trades I can see how that could happen

[KingCubsFan]

Having Carlos Marmol on the team until he was traded wasn't preventing the FO from rebuilding.

Not exactly, but paying 9.5 million for a pitcher who was no longer effective certainly hampered the FO's ability to rebuild on the fly and quickly build a contender. Particularly with the budget constraints in place.

[Guest]

Fangraphs list of Cubs players who got at bats in 2011:

 

Aramis Ramirez - not re-signed

Starlin Castro

Carlos Pena - not re-signed

Geovany Soto - traded

Darwin Barney

Marlon Byrd - traded

Tony Campana - traded

Reed Johnson - traded

Alfonso Soriano - traded

Carlos Zambrano - traded

Bryan LaHair - released

Blake DeWitt - not re-signed

Casey Coleman

Steve Clevenger - traded

Justin Berg - released

Jeff Stevens - released

Marcos Mateo

Andrew Cashner - traded

James Russell

Ramon Ortiz - released

DJ LeMahieu - traded

Jeff Samardzija

Lou Montanez - released

Brad Snyder - released

Welington Castillo

Randy Wells - released

Doug Davis - released

Jeff Baker - traded

Kosuke Fukudome - traded

Rodrigo Lopez - not re-signed

Matt Garza - traded

Koyie Hill - not re-signed

Ryan Dempster - traded

Tyler Colvin - traded

 

Pitched in 2011:

 

Matt Garza - traded

Sean Marshall - traded

Ryan Dempster - traded

Carlos Zambrano - traded

Jeff Samardzija

Carlos Marmol - traded

Doug Davis - not re-signed

Casey Coleman

Kerry Wood - xxx

Marcos Mateo

Andrew Cashner - traded

John Gaub - released

Rafael Dolis

Randy Wells - released

Chris Carpenter - released

Justin Berg - released

Ramon Ortiz - not re-signed

Jeff Stevens - released / not re-signed

James Russell

Rodrigo Lopez - not re-signed

Scott Maine - released

John Grabow - not re-signed

 

 

Some of those were traded at the deadline or released in 2011, but the vast majority were dealt with by the current regime. Call it what you will, but there is little left over from 2011.

 

And there were a lot more than seven players traded, btw.

[Sammy Sofa]

To me a fire sale is trading off what valuable assets you have in a short timeframe, typically to avoid budget issues. The Cubs clearly have budget issues, but they didn't engage in a fire sale. What the Marlins have done is what I think a fire sale is. The Cubs didn't do that, and didn't have to do that on that scale to engage in their main avenues of rebuilding. Just dumping useless players for nothing or next to nothing isn't a fire sale to me; a fire sale is done with the idea of trading a bunch of guys quickly to help turn the team around because they'll bring a good return.

 

I don't consider players being released or not signed as part of a fire sale; even if the FO had bizarrely inherited a good team you still would have seen a bunch of players released or not signed. That you hink I don't know players are released is asinine. Dumping Bobby Scales isn't the same as burning off your valuable assets via trade ASAP.

[imb]

I think you might literally be the only person in this thread using the term ''fire sale." Just call it what it is, a concerted effort to shed as many assets as possible and to acquire as many sheddable assets as possible.

 

You're pompously droning on and on about things you clearly haven't been paying attention to, its pathetic.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

Semantics, you can't trade an entire 40 man roster overnight and they were looking to maximize value anyways. They did trade 16 players in 2+ years and they received a large percentage of their top prospects either directly via the trades or via their positioning in the draft and with their international free agent bonus pool they had available because they tanked. Those are the players that are hopefully going to lead this team back to being successful.

[seanimal]

What is it, would you say, that you do here?

 

http://jeremeyduvall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/great-mustaches-of-cinema-milton-office-space-movie-e1363409382882.jpg

[Sammy Sofa]

I think you might literally be the only person in this thread using the term ''fire sale." Just call it what it is, a concerted effort to shed as many assets as possible and to acquire as many sheddable assets as possible.

 

You're pompously droning on and on about things you clearly haven't been paying attention to, its pathetic.

 

I'm using the term "fire sale" because when I asked Beer Kase to clarify what he meant by "unwinding the old team" he described what I consider to be a fire sale by listing a bunch of players who were traded. He didn't go on about players who had been released or not re-signed; he listed a bunch of trades. That's what I was responding to. Then you stumbled in like a jackass and decided you were going to be this week's jerkoff who can't stand to hear people bemoaning the woes of the Cubs despite the fact nobody was actually doing that and now you can't figure out a way to pull out that foot that's jammed so far inside of that [expletive] you call a mouth because you decided to randomly defend the dumbest post of the week like you actually give a [expletive].

[imb]

Lmao are your feelings hurt? Poor guy. Maybe if you could have stopped yourself from acting like an authority on a subject you haven't paid attention to for at least two years, you could have avoided degrading yourself so publicly.

 

This is what I was talking about from the very beginning. The guy was clearly stating that the cubs were treating this like a scenario where they had to shed themselves of this nonsense roster before progressing, rightly or wrongly. But because you just couldnt stand a post being made that didn't term it how your limited understanding wanted it termed, you got all excited and made a fool of yourself, per usual.

[Tangled Up in Plaid]

http://i.imgur.com/DGNXfIi.gif

[davell]

Major leaguers Theo has traded for likely to help next year- Arrieta, Grimm, Strop, and Wood. Position player is Rizzo. Guys in our top 30 or so that may help next year or down the line are Ramirez, Edwards, Vizcaino, Hendricks, Pineyro, Black, and Leal on the pitching side. Position guys are Olt and Villanueva. That's a pretty damn good haul over a 2 year period.

[LeftCoastCubFan]

I think you might literally be the only person in this thread using the term ''fire sale." Just call it what it is, a concerted effort to shed as many assets as possible and to acquire as many sheddable assets as possible.

 

You're pompously droning on and on about things you clearly haven't been paying attention to, its pathetic.

 

I'm using the term "fire sale" because when I asked Beer Kase to clarify what he meant by "unwinding the old team" he described what I consider to be a fire sale by listing a bunch of players who were traded. He didn't go on about players who had been released or not re-signed; he listed a bunch of trades. That's what I was responding to. Then you stumbled in like a jackass and decided you were going to be this week's jerkoff who can't stand to hear people bemoaning the woes of the Cubs despite the fact nobody was actually doing that and now you can't figure out a way to pull out that foot that's jammed so far inside of that [expletive] you call a mouth because you decided to randomly defend the dumbest post of the week like you actually give a [expletive].

Isn't a "fire sale" when you sell your gun after you shoot somebody. Still trying to figure out your point. It's semantics of what as FS means?

[Guest]

I'm with Mojo on this, although I'm not sure how the argument progressed from "they had to purge the old roster" to "they did purge the old roster" and I don't really feel like finding out.

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah, I'm super pissed right now. SO mad. You better not mess with me, bro.

[imb]

Yeah, I'm super pissed right now. SO mad. You better not mess with me, bro.

 

I said "feelings hurt," not mad. Of course, since you couldn't successfully parse out a single like, 10-word sentence, maybe you are mad.

[Sammy Sofa]

REALLY mad. Scary mad. I'm warning you just the once.

[seanimal]

epic meltdown, mojo

[Sammy Sofa]

You want some of this, too? I'm way mad and emotional right now.