College Football - Week 11 (Nov. 12th)

[imb]

yes, "a poor decision" would be one way to classify willfully ignoring and abetting child rape.

[SouthSideRyan]

And let's not pretend Paterno has a normal relationship with the AD of Penn State. Paterno is Penn State athletics. Calling the AD his superior is misleading.

[Old Style]

Yes and no. If the AD had done his job and reported things to the police, then fine, no one gets on Paterno for running things up the flag pole. After awhile it becomes pretty clear that the AD is going to sit on it and you as the person who told them become aware of that. Then you go to the cops. Pretty simple.

 

i guess that's the real question... what he thought happened with the investigation. did he think that the whole thing was swept under the rug by the administration? if so then i agree that he made a poor decision in not pushing for it to be investigated by police (but again, i don't think it's his place to go to the cops - he should have urged mcqueary or curley to do so). if he thought it was investigated and resolved properly, that's another story. or maybe he's just old and forgot about it. who knows.

I don't care how senile he is now, this is not something you just forget about.

[Smack]

If you walked in on a man raping a child, wouldn't you physically intervene? Or, if afraid for your own safety, at least immediately go call 911?

[TruffleShuffle]

since i'm being accused of condoning sexual abuse of children (despite already stating that someone close to me was abused for years while growing up) i'm done with this discussion. i'll just post this blog that i read which agrees reasonably well with my feelings on the matter. hopefully some of you will read it.

 

http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2011/11/5/2540413/should-joe-paterno-have-done-more-to-protect-children

[Old Style]

since i'm being accused of condoning sexual abuse of children

Reading comprehension is hard.

[glavine93]

all of these people are disgusting. and joe paterno, etc. have no place using the "i did what i was obligated to do!" in their stupid press releases because those reporting guidelines are the minimum standards one should follow to avoid criminal trouble, and have nothing to do with being a decent representative of the university/human being. all these people played a part in keeping a crazy child molester in business and they deserve the disgrace that is coming to them.

 

Sandusky's locker room keys are confiscated, he is told not to bring his Second Mile participants to campus and the incident is reported to the charity, but no law enforcement investigation is launched, according to the grand jury.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/07/justice/pennsylvania-coach-abuse-timeline/?hpt=ju_c2

 

that is the equivalent of: “clearly you do bad things, but could you not do them here? keep the office though!”

 

also, given what mcqueary saw in the locker room, how could he stay there all this time knowing that no one ever contacted police? was the job just too cushy? also, if i’m ever at work and see someone being raped, i promise i will be calling 911 BECAUSE THAT IS AN EMERGENCY.

[bcl412]

If you walked in on a man raping a child, wouldn't you physically intervene? Or, if afraid for your own safety, at least immediately go call 911?

 

I do think there is some complication concerning that. Walking in on something like that would be incredibly traumatic (obviously not to the level that the child is experiencing), it could be compared to walking in on someone's head getting shot off or something that so people would react differently depending on the situation. I can kind of see why he didn't physically intervene. That said, I would hope that at least you process what is going on and what you just saw, then you would tell someone other than your father or your boss (aka the police)

Edited November 7, 2011 by bcl412

[Old Style]

When child abuse is suspected, it is a matter for law enforcement to determine the facts of the case. Both the graduate assistant and Coach Paterno had neither legal nor moral authority to judge for themselves whether child abuse had actually taken place. If every person that suspected child abuse in an institutional setting were permitted to take the law into their own hands by contacting authorities, it would become incredibly easy for anyone with a vendetta against a colleague, a superior, or an underling to ruin a career and a reputation by making unfounded reports with no check. That is why they are to report to the heads of their institutions, whose responsibility it is to make the report, based on whether or not there is 'reasonable suspicion' that abuse has occurred.

This is a steaming hunk of [expletive]. I'll agree that they didn't have the LEGAL authority to judge whether child abuse had taken place but they absolutely had the MORAL authority to do so, especially McQueary because he actually witnessed the event. And if this were the first time any allegations of this kind had been brought against Sandusky then I may be willing to cut JoePa some slack. But it was not. He failed big time here and he needs to resign immediately.

[Smack]

If you walked in on a man raping a child, wouldn't you physically intervene? Or, if afraid for your own safety, at least immediately go call 911?

 

I do think there is some complication concerning that. Walking in on something like that would be incredibly traumatic (obviously not to the level that the child is experiencing), it could be compared to walking in on someone's head getting shot off or something that so people would react differently depending on the situation. I can kind of see why he didn't physically intervene. That said, I would hope that at least you process what is going on and what you just saw, you would tell someone other than your father or your boss (aka the police)

 

Yeah, I can see your point. Sometimes people stop functioning correctly when they see something that traumatic.

[E.J.]

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/878667/LSU_vs_Bama_medium.gif

[Tracer Bullet]

since i'm being accused of condoning sexual abuse of children (despite already stating that someone close to me was abused for years while growing up) i'm done with this discussion. i'll just post this blog that i read which agrees reasonably well with my feelings on the matter. hopefully some of you will read it.

 

http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2011/11/5/2540413/should-joe-paterno-have-done-more-to-protect-children

 

You're going to play the victim? Come on. People are disagreeing with your assertion that JoePa telling someone that child rape was occurring in his locker room by a friend and former assistant was all he was obligated to do. Continuing to bring up the unfortunate personal situation you had isn't relevant. No one has alleged that you actively support child rape. We just think JoePa should have done more than make a call and walk away without concern for the children being raped by his friend. Now we think he should resign.

 

And since he has the W record he's always wanted, despite not being an actual coach for about a decade, he can step down. Good timing.

[TruffleShuffle]

No one has alleged that you actively support child rape.

 

I'm sitting here while I read the grand jury report wondering to myself how something this evil could fall through the cracks for so long and then I read your post and I realize it's because there are people like you in the world who will allow it.

[SpongeWorthy]

wolf was only implying that you passively support child rape

[Tracer Bullet]

Yeah, you don't seem outraged as everyone else is. But wolf didn't say you actively support it.

 

ETA if you're JoePa do you think you've met your obligation by telling your boss and not caring whether the police are notified? Your posts suggest you think that's enough. If so, yeah, given these facts, you're not as actively against child rape as the rest of us.

[TruffleShuffle]

Yeah, you don't seem outraged as everyone else is. But wolf didn't say you actively support it.

 

no, he just said that sexual abuse can go on unchecked for years because of people like me. sorry if i didn't take that as positive commentary.

 

i'm probably more outraged than most because it happened at a school i attended and certain people prominent in the administration completely disregarded their professional duties (not to mention their moral failings). the number of people you're willing to throw under the bus is not a good gauge of one's outrage.

[Tracer Bullet]

Yeah, you don't seem outraged as everyone else is. But wolf didn't say you actively support it.

 

no, he just said that sexual abuse can go on unchecked for years because of people like me. sorry if i didn't take that as positive commentary.

 

i'm probably more outraged than most because it happened at a school i attended and certain people prominent in the administration completely disregarded their professional duties (not to mention their moral failings). the number of people you're willing to throw under the bus is not a good gauge of one's outrage.

 

I'm in no way suggesting that wolf's comment was positive. But it's not stating that you support child abuse.

 

JoePa is psu athletics. You said yourself that he's a personal friend of sandusky. His heir apparent got fired for unknown reasons, yet still has access to JoePa's building. JoePa hears about alleged child rape against a friend and former close subordinate and effectively passes the buck without the slightest concern for the dozens of children whose lives were being ruined.

 

His failure to do everything in his power to put a stop to this is reprehensible. You don't seem to agree that he did anything wrong.

[TruffleShuffle]

His heir apparent got fired for unknown reasons, yet still has access to JoePa's building.

 

he didn't get fired, he resigned. or retired, whatever you want to call it.

 

i'm not going to agree with you, or apparently most people, but i believe in chain of command within an organization, rather than every person being responsible for reporting something to everyone else. in large organizations you're trained to report situations to superiors except in the case of imminent danger, and the superiors are expected to follow a set of procedures from there. if i suspect abuse but not imminent danger as part of my coaching in special olympics, i pass this along to the administration. as a third party, i don't know that i'd follow up because i assume the people in the administration will handle the situation properly. even if i did follow up, i'm not sure that i'd get any answers because of privacy rules.

 

say i'm a middle manager at a company and a female employee comes to me saying that she's been harassed by a male co-worker. say i'm expected to pass this information along to upper management, and i do so, and they interview her and find that there likely has been harassment going on. but for whatever reason - embarrassment, fear of litigation, they view the male employee as a bright up-and-coming star in the company - they take no action. then the woman gets raped by the harassing co-worker. should i, the middle manager, be fired or punished or publicly shamed for not pushing her claim more? i don't think so, because i did my responsibility properly. the people above me did not.

 

now i'm sure your response will be "but joepa is psu athletics!!!!!!!" but in legal matters, he has always deferred to the administration, as he did here. you are welcome to feel otherwise.

[Old Style]

say i'm a middle manager at a company and a female employee comes to me saying that she's been harassed by a male co-worker. say i'm expected to pass this information along to upper management, and i do so, and they interview her and find that there likely has been harassment going on. but for whatever reason - embarrassment, fear of litigation, they view the male employee as a bright up-and-coming star in the company - they take no action. then the woman gets raped by the harassing co-worker. should i, the middle manager, be fired or punished or publicly shamed for not pushing her claim more? i don't think so, because i did my responsibility properly. the people above me did not.

You're analogy is horrible. JoePa is far from a "middle manager" at Penn State, this was not a first or even second time allegation against Sandusky, this was not two adults, this wasn't harassment and then rape after you found out about the allegations, etc.

[TruffleShuffle]

you mean my analogy wasn't the exact same thing as the situation that actually happened? you don't say.

[wolf stansson]

Truffle's dumb, clumsy analogies and playing the victim in this thread aside, if someone witnesses the anal raping of a child, they absolutely have a societal responsibility to personally notify the police and step forward as an eye witness. Not just stepping forward to their boss, but to the police. That is the bare minimum they are required as members of society to do. Also, my hyperbolic judgement of truffle as culturally complicit aside, claiming something so ridiculous as adhering to your employer's chain of command or bureaucratic channels of information was enough in this situation for Joe Pa and the graduate assistant to have done their duty as human beings is in my opinion a grossly inadequate, reprehensible argument in their defense.

 

This is, and should be, a death sentence to Penn State's football program by way of the complete removal of the current coaching staff and most of the athletic department. It is also an indictment on the culture of college athletics and demagoguery of head football coaches in our country's institutions of higher learning.

[Tracer Bullet]

Your ability to attempt a holier than thou attitude when defending someone who took far less action than decency demands is a little sickening.

 

Your analogy sucks. I don't care who JoePa hides behind in legal matters. Of course he tries to stay out of it. That's CYA 101. But he knew children were being raped by his friend and didn't do everything he could to stop it. His inaction likely directly led to additional instances of child rape by this man. For all of that, he should forever feel deep regret and shame beyond more than only the worst of people. I couldn't live with myself if I thought children had been raped bc I did nothing to prevent a known molester from further attacks.

 

But his inaction brought shame and embarrassment upon his employer and for that he should be fired. If my son played for PSU and I thought JoePa had any actual coaching role at all, I'd yank him out of school before Saturday's game in hopes of preventing JoePa from inflicting irreparable damage on his moral compass.

[shnsajax]

In all of my management positions if you are ever put "On notice" and don't report it, it could lead to termination (would always in this situation). All you have to do is report it and all of the blame goes off of you and on to HR. It really doesn't matter who you are, once you know about it you have to report it. If the same issue gets reported 1,000 times who cares. Its not your job to process any claim, that's what HR is for. All you have to do is report it. Assuming he does this and HR does nothing I would not put the blame on Paterno. If he influences HR one way or the other then that's another story.

 

If you look at all of the self reporting secondary violations coaches have to follow through with with the NCAA there is no excuse to ever miss something like this.

[TruffleShuffle]

Your ability to attempt a holier than thou attitude when defending someone who took far less action than decency demands is a little sickening.

 

i'm disappointed. i figured if anyone could appreciate a good holier than thou attitude it would be yourself.

[Old Style]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-penn-state-ad-administrator-step-down-amid-scandal-20111106,0,7963686.story

 

Football coach Joe Paterno and other Penn State officials didn't do enough to try to stop suspected sexual abuse of children at the hands of a former assistant football coach, the state police commissioner said Monday.

 

Paterno may have fulfilled his legal requirement to report suspected abuse by former assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky, state police Commissioner Frank Noonan said, "but somebody has to question about what I would consider the moral requirements for a human being that knows of sexual things that are taking place with a child."

 

He added: "I think you have the moral responsibility, anyone. Not whether you're a football coach or a university president or the guy sweeping the building. I think you have a moral responsibility to call us."