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Re: New GM/Cubs Future News Articles

ArizonaGM

By ArizonaGM,
in Chicago Cubs Talk

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SouthSideRyan MVP

SouthSideRyan

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Posted
Posted
So now your argument is that Corey Patterson wasn't really that valuable because the expectations were higher.

 

So if we had all really hated him or something on the way up, that would have made him more valuable to the team.

 

 

you said you were done in here. go hunt some ducks.

 

Shhhh, you won't to wake up Pedantic Kyle? Can't we just enjoy this Kyle while he lasts?

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So now your argument is that Corey Patterson wasn't really that valuable because the expectations were higher.

 

So if we had all really hated him or something on the way up, that would have made him more valuable to the team.

 

No! The argument is you give up for McNutt for Epstein if you have to get the deal done. Esptein is a top 5 GM while McNutt is an AA pitcher with a good ceiling.

Hairyducked Idiot All-Star

Hairyducked Idiot

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Okay. So now we're back to two issues.

 

One: You vastly overestimate the difference between Epstein and the next GM.

Two: You don't really understand the value of nearly-ready prospects, even if they merely turn out as good as Corey Patterson.

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Hollandsworths mug

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Oh my god. Really? Since when does "every day player" who is COST CONTROLLED equal being a bust? Do you know valuable it is to get league average production for less than $500,000 a year?

 

Was Corey Patterson supposed to be a "league average player? Was that what he was touted to be or was the term: 5 tools/can't miss prospect the general norm?

 

 

WHO [expletive] CARES WHAT PATTERSON WAS TOUTED TO BE?? YOU DON'T LOSE VALUE BECAUSE YOU HOPED A GUY WOULD BECOME SOMETHING ELSE HE STILL HAS THAT VALUE HOLY [expletive]

 

AND YOU DON'T LOSE EPSTEIN OVER TREY FRIGGIN MCNUTT.

squally1313 Myrtle Beach Pelicans

squally1313

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
So now your argument is that Corey Patterson wasn't really that valuable because the expectations were higher.

 

So if we had all really hated him or something on the way up, that would have made him more valuable to the team.

 

 

you said you were done in here. go hunt some ducks.

 

This is the internet. No one who ever says they are done is actually done. Not once has a Declaration of Done ever been followed-up on.

 

 

If the Red Sox actually asked for Garza, then I'm finally beginning to think we'll have to walk away. And that's fine. What a batpoop insane organization.

 

Seriously. If they are honestly convinced that Theo Epstein is worth that much, why the hell would they even let him interview in the first place?

 

On a slightly different note, I remember somebody saying that they were surprised people in Chicago weren't more excited about this. I think the Chicago media has been fairly quiet about the whole situation, and I wonder if that's a function of the Cubs PR team trying to keep it low key in case it actually does fall through.

ScrubMD ACL Cubs

ScrubMD

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
So now your argument is that Corey Patterson wasn't really that valuable because the expectations were higher.

 

So if we had all really hated him or something on the way up, that would have made him more valuable to the team.

 

Not all minor league players are created equal. A minor-league player who looks nearly ready to contribute to the MLB roster in any way is significantly more valuable than a low-A lottery ticket.

 

Value = production/cost - (expectations + look at everyone who didn't pan out)

JimSorgi ACL Cubs

JimSorgi

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

Oh my god. Really? Since when does "every day player" who is COST CONTROLLED equal being a bust? Do you know valuable it is to get league average production for less than $500,000 a year?

 

Was Corey Patterson supposed to be a "league average player? Was that what he was touted to be or was the term: 5 tools/can't miss prospect the general norm?

 

 

WHO [expletive] CARES WHAT PATTERSON WAS TOUTED TO BE?? YOU DON'T LOSE VALUE BECAUSE YOU HOPED A GUY WOULD BECOME SOMETHING ELSE HE STILL HAS THAT VALUE HOLY [expletive]

 

AND YOU DON'T LOSE EPSTEIN OVER TREY FRIGGIN MCNUTT.

Of course we won't, since we don't have to give up McNutt.

Sammy Sofa GOAT

Sammy Sofa

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Oh my god. Really? Since when does "every day player" who is COST CONTROLLED equal being a bust? Do you know valuable it is to get league average production for less than $500,000 a year?

 

Was Corey Patterson supposed to be a "league average player? Was that what he was touted to be or was the term: 5 tools/can't miss prospect the general norm?

 

This is the same mentality as the Cubs fans who, for years, have been looking at Zambrano as a "bust" if he wasn't pitching like an ace.

Brett College Ball

Brett

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

 

The thing that makes me nervous about the "they asked for Garza" story getting traction now: if it came from the Cubs, doesn't it seem like a leak designed to set up the "see how unreasonable the Red Sox were being? it's not our fault things fell through" defense.

 

Obviously I'm not saying the Cubs should deal them Garza (or even McNutt). I'm just saying it makes me a little nervous.

squally1313 Myrtle Beach Pelicans

squally1313

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Oh my god. Really? Since when does "every day player" who is COST CONTROLLED equal being a bust? Do you know valuable it is to get league average production for less than $500,000 a year?

 

Was Corey Patterson supposed to be a "league average player? Was that what he was touted to be or was the term: 5 tools/can't miss prospect the general norm?

 

 

WHO [expletive] CARES WHAT PATTERSON WAS TOUTED TO BE?? YOU DON'T LOSE VALUE BECAUSE YOU HOPED A GUY WOULD BECOME SOMETHING ELSE HE STILL HAS THAT VALUE HOLY [expletive]

 

AND YOU DON'T LOSE EPSTEIN OVER TREY FRIGGIN MCNUTT.

 

I think most people here, speaking honestly, would say that Theo Epstein would probably contribute more to this organization than Trey McNutt over the long run. But the point is, so would Josh Byrnes....or Cherington....or the Braves guy...or probably a few more people I can't even think of right now.

Hairyducked Idiot All-Star

Hairyducked Idiot

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted (edited)

I'm going to place some 2011 Cubs players in two baskets.

 

Basket A contains two infielders, another position player and a pitcher.

 

Basket B contains two infielders, another position player and a pitcher.

 

The Cubs got a combined total of 11.0 fWAR out of Basket A.

 

The Cubs got a combined total of 10.5 fWAR out of Basket B.

 

Pretty similar value, right?

 

Basket A:

 

Aramis Ramirez, Carlos Pena, Marlon Byrd, Ryan Dempster, combined cost $44.52 million

 

 

Basket B:

 

Starlin Castro, Darwin Barney, Geovany Soto, Sean Marshall, combined cost $5.46 million

 

 

Conclusion:

 

You get the same value, but with the difference in costs between Basket A and Basket B, you could afford an entire season of Albert Pujols and CJ Wilson with money to spare. Near-MLB ready prospects who can fill roles with even a modicum of ability are worth many millions of dollars to their MLB team for each of their six cost-controlled seasons.

 

Edited by Hairyducked Idiot
davearm2 First Round Pick

davearm2

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

Let's just assume you're right, and a well-regarded AA prospect is worth $10M.

 

In that case, what is the monetary value of a GM with a stellar record of drafting and developing many of those well-regarded AA prospects?

 

Less than the value of one such prospect? Really?

 

Do you think Theo would get 10M/Y if he were a free agent?

 

ETA: Hi Gooney

Every team in baseball would fall all over themselves to pay $10M to have Epstein under control for 6 years, like you get with the prospect.

 

So if we make your question apples-to-apples, the answer is absolutely yes.

 

WHAT?

What what?

 

You're making a totally invalid comparison, as I pointed out. I tried to straighten it out as best I could.

kujay Iowa Cubs

kujay

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

 

The thing that makes me nervous about the "they asked for Garza" story getting traction now: if it came from the Cubs, doesn't it seem like a leak designed to set up the "see how unreasonable the Red Sox were being? it's not our fault things fell through" defense.

 

Obviously I'm not saying the Cubs should deal them Garza (or even McNutt). I'm just saying it makes me a little nervous.

 

I don't think it's a leak with some motive in mind as you describe. This thing is going to happen. But I do think it probably came from someone in the organization (Cubs) who was frustrated.

 

I really wish Theo was determining the player(s) Boston would get.

Guest

Guest

Guests
Posted
Posted

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-epstein-compensation-talks-going-down-to-wire-20111017,0,3678526.story

 

There's been no real progress to report in the Theo Epstein compensation talks, and no apparent sense of urgency by Boston to get a deal done quickly, sources said Monday.

 

If the Cubs and Red Sox don't come to an agreement by Tuesday night, they'll probably have to wait until after the World Series because MLB prohibits teams from making major announcements during its biggest event.

 

Boston is also conducting a managerial search, but team president Larry Lucchino and Epstein's rumored replacement, Ben Cherington, have already started the process. Whether Epstein is Red Sox property another week or so wouldn't affect their search, and Boston is adamant about getting the best possible value out of the Cubs for the right to hire Epstein with a year remaining on his contract.

 

The Boston Globe reported Monday right-hander Trey McNutt, the Cubs' top pitching prospect, is one of the names being discussed. The Cubs could ill afford to lose another top pitching prospect, after sending Chris Archer to Tampa Bay last January in the Matt Garza deal.

 

No one seems too concerned that Epstein's five-year deal worth over $15 million will be scuttled because the two teams couldn't come to an agreement. Neither side would benefit from that scenario.

 

And though Major League Baseball is monitoring the situation, the Commissioner's office has no power to arbitrate a resolution. It's up to Lucchino and Cubs Chairman Tom Ricketts to get a deal done.

Hollandsworths mug Draft Eligible

Hollandsworths mug

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

Oh my god. Really? Since when does "every day player" who is COST CONTROLLED equal being a bust? Do you know valuable it is to get league average production for less than $500,000 a year?

 

Was Corey Patterson supposed to be a "league average player? Was that what he was touted to be or was the term: 5 tools/can't miss prospect the general norm?

 

 

WHO [expletive] CARES WHAT PATTERSON WAS TOUTED TO BE?? YOU DON'T LOSE VALUE BECAUSE YOU HOPED A GUY WOULD BECOME SOMETHING ELSE HE STILL HAS THAT VALUE HOLY [expletive]

 

AND YOU DON'T LOSE EPSTEIN OVER TREY FRIGGIN MCNUTT.

 

I think most people here, speaking honestly, would say that Theo Epstein would probably contribute more to this organization than Trey McNutt over the long run. But the point is, so would Josh Byrnes....or Cherington....or the Braves guy...or probably a few more people I can't even think of right now.

 

So keep McNutt and hire someone else because he was too valuable to deal? Sorry, he is not that valuable when we are talking about a guy who is going try and build a kingdom and has done so in the past. And again, we do not even know if McNutt is why we are at a standstill.

UMFan83 GOAT

UMFan83

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
So, basically, if we had to give up McNutt to make the deal work, the vast majority of posters here would not do it? Again, the question is IF we had to.

 

Are you high? That's the only reason I could explain your inability to grasp a simple concept.

 

edit: whoops sorry goony

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