Aramis

[apete6]

Before today's game, Aramis had the 24th highest OPS in baseball as well as 30th in wOBA, and 47th highest WAR. Might want to just go ahead and pick up that option and then consider hammering out a longer term extension or trading him.

 

In the offseason, Aramis might consider waiving his NTC and he would still be a very attractive trade chip. If not, another typical Aramis season wouldn't be the worst part about the 2012 Cubs.

[jersey cubs fan]

Before today's game, Aramis had the 24th highest OPS in baseball as well as 30th in wOBA, and 47th highest WAR. Might want to just go ahead and pick up that option and then consider hammering out a longer term extension or trading him.

 

In the offseason, Aramis might consider waiving his NTC and he would still be a very attractive trade chip. If not, another typical Aramis season wouldn't be the worst part about the 2012 Cubs.

 

It amazes me how many people are begging for the day they let him go, as well as all the reports that he is as good as gone next season.

 

If he walks, they will have to spend just as much money to get back to where they are today, let alone add another stud.

[apete6]

Before today's game, Aramis had the 24th highest OPS in baseball as well as 30th in wOBA, and 47th highest WAR. Might want to just go ahead and pick up that option and then consider hammering out a longer term extension or trading him.

 

In the offseason, Aramis might consider waiving his NTC and he would still be a very attractive trade chip. If not, another typical Aramis season wouldn't be the worst part about the 2012 Cubs.

 

It amazes me how many people are begging for the day they let him go, as well as all the reports that he is as good as gone next season.

 

If he walks, they will have to spend just as much money to get back to where they are today, let alone add another stud.

 

Agreed. We had 1 season of decent 3B play between Santo and Aramis (Madlock) and people are ready to ship Aramis anywhere. 3B in baseball is a giant pile of crap right now. With so many other holes on this team, might as well ride Aramis as long as possible.

[Guest]

What amazes me is that just a month ago, people were suggesting that I was crazy when I was saying that he was still a valuable player and that we could easily beat his (at the time) .730 OPS just by hanging onto him for next year.

[UMFan83]

Aramis' year so far reminds me of 2009 Derrick Lee. He started off the season horribly, a year after a subpar season. People start to think he's finished and then all the sudden, he just starts raking it and ends up with great numbers.

[sweetpeteman]

Before today's game, Aramis had the 24th highest OPS in baseball as well as 30th in wOBA, and 47th highest WAR. Might want to just go ahead and pick up that option and then consider hammering out a longer term extension or trading him.

 

In the offseason, Aramis might consider waiving his NTC and he would still be a very attractive trade chip. If not, another typical Aramis season wouldn't be the worst part about the 2012 Cubs.

 

It amazes me how many people are begging for the day they let him go, as well as all the reports that he is as good as gone next season.

 

If he walks, they will have to spend just as much money to get back to where they are today, let alone add another stud.

 

Agreed. We had 1 season of decent 3B play between Santo and Aramis (Madlock) and people are ready to ship Aramis anywhere. 3B in baseball is a giant pile of crap right now. With so many other holes on this team, might as well ride Aramis as long as possible.

 

 

There was more than 1 season of decent play (Madlock had 3 good seasons himself), just never consistent play from the same players. And a lot of bad seasons. That said, unless they get a really good offer for Aram, they should pick up the option.

[Sammy Sofa]

Aramis' year so far reminds me of 2009 Derrick Lee. He started off the season horribly, a year after a subpar season. People start to think he's finished and then all the sudden, he just starts raking it and ends up with great numbers.

 

Wait, really? I don't remember that at all being like Aramis this year. Aramis was pretty decent from the start, but just wasn't hitting for much power until about a couple months into the season. Lee was completely wretched in April and then went nuts after that for the rest of the season.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Sammy Sofa

[MSG T]

Before today's game, Aramis had the 24th highest OPS in baseball as well as 30th in wOBA, and 47th highest WAR. Might want to just go ahead and pick up that option and then consider hammering out a longer term extension or trading him.

 

In the offseason, Aramis might consider waiving his NTC and he would still be a very attractive trade chip. If not, another typical Aramis season wouldn't be the worst part about the 2012 Cubs.

 

It amazes me how many people are begging for the day they let him go, as well as all the reports that he is as good as gone next season.

 

If he walks, they will have to spend just as much money to get back to where they are today, let alone add another stud.

 

Agreed. We had 1 season of decent 3B play between Santo and Aramis (Madlock) and people are ready to ship Aramis anywhere. 3B in baseball is a giant pile of crap right now. With so many other holes on this team, might as well ride Aramis as long as possible.

 

 

What do you consider decent? Maybe not great, but I'd think the following were all at least decent.

 

1983 - Cey 658 PAs , .805 OPS, 118 OPS+

1986 - Cey 306 PAs, .891 OPS, 138 OPS+

Lopes 191 PAs, .908 OPS, 144 OPS+

Trillo 172 PAs, .740 OPS, 99 OPS+

1993 - Buechelle 520 PAs, .782 OPS 110 OPS+

 

Plus quite a few years where the 3B had OPS+ over 100. Again, I'm in no way saying these were great seasons (although the 86 team had really good output from 3B), but they weren't crap either.

 

 

As a side note, in looking at B-R for these numbers, when I saw the batting stats from 1993 I was surprised they were a 4th place team, granted they did win 84 games. Then I saw their pitching stats for that season. How did they finish over .500 when their best starter was Greg Hibbard, with the 100 ERA+ and 1.340 WHiP. Their best starter!?

[XZero771679666304]

Or buy out his contract and re-sign him to 2 year deal with a lower aav. If he's serious about wanting to wrap up his career in Chicago, he'd probably consider it.

[gocubs2118]

To me, signing him to anything more than a one or possibly a two year deal will end up being very bad for us. This is still the same guy that's very injury prone, this is the first season in a long time where he didn't go on the DL. He's still a bad fielder and it will only get worse with age. We can still compete without him next year, just need to upgrade in other areas.

[jersey cubs fan]

What amazes me is that just a month ago, people were suggesting that I was crazy when I was saying that he was still a valuable player and that we could easily beat his (at the time) .730 OPS just by hanging onto him for next year.

 

I think you might be misremembering things Tim.

[SouthSideRyan]

Agreed, I think the best course of action is to pick up the option and worry about 2013 when you get there. The FA class is much better, and hopefully Flaherty/Vitters/DJL can provide a capable backup plan.

[Sammy Sofa]

To me, signing him to anything more than a one or possibly a two year deal will end up being very bad for us. This is still the same guy that's very injury prone, this is the first season in a long time where he didn't go on the DL. He's still a bad fielder and it will only get worse with age. We can still compete without him next year, just need to upgrade in other areas.

 

He's not a bad fielder, and going on the DL isn't automatically a dealbreaker. That can mean he has just 1 or 2 15-day DL stints.

[UMFan83]

Aramis' year so far reminds me of 2009 Derrick Lee. He started off the season horribly, a year after a subpar season. People start to think he's finished and then all the sudden, he just starts raking it and ends up with great numbers.

 

Wait, really? I don't remember that at all being like Aramis this year. Aramis was pretty decent from the start, but just wasn't hitting for much power until about a couple months into the season. Lee was completely wretched in April and then went nuts after that for the rest of the season.

 

I guess I remembered incorrectly. Maybe I just dwelled on his lack of power and considered him enroute to being washed up and made the connection to Lee's 2009.

[BeerHere]

In a team full of holes, trading away one of the solid contributors (perhaps THE solid contributor) is a pretty good way to retool. Aramis is very good and he's having a good year, but he can bring a couple blue-chip prospects in return I would do it in a second. Same goes for Marmol, Soto.... A 2012 team with Aramis and no other changes will be terrible (again). Trade him while his value is highest (for once).

 

Let the slamming begin.

[bukie]

If you're a team with a big payroll, it's only worth making a trade if it makes the team better long-term.

 

If you're trading away one of the 3-4 consistently good 3B over the past 5-10 years, you need to get an amazing return to make it worth it. Making the team worse for the sake of "a couple prospects" isn't worth it unless either those prospects turn out to be more valuable than Ramirez going forward, or the money "saved" by trading Ramirez can be used more efficiently.

 

Consider me skeptical of either.

[USSoccer]

In a team full of holes, trading away one of the solid contributors (perhaps THE solid contributor) is a pretty good way to retool. Aramis is very good and he's having a good year, but he can bring a couple blue-chip prospects in return I would do it in a second. Same goes for Marmol, Soto.... A 2012 team with Aramis and no other changes will be terrible (again). Trade him while his value is highest (for once).

 

Let the slamming begin.

 

Major market teams don't trade away cornerstone players for prospects.

[BeerHere]

In a team full of holes, trading away one of the solid contributors (perhaps THE solid contributor) is a pretty good way to retool. Aramis is very good and he's having a good year, but he can bring a couple blue-chip prospects in return I would do it in a second. Same goes for Marmol, Soto.... A 2012 team with Aramis and no other changes will be terrible (again). Trade him while his value is highest (for once).

 

Let the slamming begin.

 

Major market teams don't trade away cornerstone players for prospects.

Teams that consistently put winners on the field build from within and use free agency to fill the holes that the farm cannot. The Cubs are in a position to do neither. They have a high payroll with limited flexibility and they have a farm that isn't ready to contribute. Getting a stud prospect or two while Lamahieu or Flaherty play could be a good start to turning things around. The payroll flexibility could be used on a starting pitcher or 1B etc.

[dew1679666265]

If you're a team with a big payroll, it's only worth making a trade if it makes the team better long-term.

 

If you're trading away one of the 3-4 consistently good 3B over the past 5-10 years, you need to get an amazing return to make it worth it. Making the team worse for the sake of "a couple prospects" isn't worth it unless either those prospects turn out to be more valuable than Ramirez going forward, or the money "saved" by trading Ramirez can be used more efficiently.

 

Consider me skeptical of either.

 

I've been a proponent of trading Aramis in the past, but it's been for (example) Jesus Montero (plus). Somebody like Montero could immediately be slotted into the third base hole and might produce in the vicinity of Aramis (at least offensively) within the next year or two. There'd clearly have to be more added on to Montero, but I'm simply not familiar enough with the Yankees' system to know who to target and who, combined with Montero, would be worth giving up for Aramis.

 

The likelihood of that type of deal going down is extremely low, but that's fine with me. I would be perfectly happy going into 2012 with Aramis at third.

[Guest]

In a team full of holes, trading away one of the solid contributors (perhaps THE solid contributor) is a pretty good way to retool. Aramis is very good and he's having a good year, but he can bring a couple blue-chip prospects in return I would do it in a second. Same goes for Marmol, Soto.... A 2012 team with Aramis and no other changes will be terrible (again). Trade him while his value is highest (for once).

 

Let the slamming begin.

 

Major market teams don't trade away cornerstone players for prospects.

Teams that consistently put winners on the field build from within and use free agency to fill the holes that the farm cannot. The Cubs are in a position to do neither. They have a high payroll with limited flexibility and they have a farm that isn't ready to contribute. Getting a stud prospect or two while Lamahieu or Flaherty play could be a good start to turning things around. The payroll flexibility could be used on a starting pitcher or 1B etc.

 

The payroll flexibility is already there. Hemorrhaging talent just because we're bad this year is a good way to ensure we stay bad.

[dew1679666265]

Teams that consistently put winners on the field build from within and use free agency to fill the holes that the farm cannot. The Cubs are in a position to do neither.

 

Actually, the Cubs are in a position to do both. Guys like Brett Jackson, Trey McNutt, Ryan Flaherty, DJ LeMaheieu are on the brink of making the majors and while none of them will be stars, all of them could be average major leaguers fairly soon. Add in the $60 million the Cubs have coming off the books this offseason and they can make a serious run at (and really have no reason not to get one of) Fielder or Pujols and then CJ Wilson if rotation depth is needed. Add those two FAs, plus the young guys producing cheaply and the Cubs would be in a pretty good position to compete in the division (at least) next year and continue improving from there.

[BeerHere]

Teams that consistently put winners on the field build from within and use free agency to fill the holes that the farm cannot. The Cubs are in a position to do neither.

 

Actually, the Cubs are in a position to do both. Guys like Brett Jackson, Trey McNutt, Ryan Flaherty, DJ LeMaheieu are on the brink of making the majors and while none of them will be stars, all of them could be average major leaguers fairly soon. Add in the $60 million the Cubs have coming off the books this offseason and they can make a serious run at (and really have no reason not to get one of) Fielder or Pujols and then CJ Wilson if rotation depth is needed. Add those two FAs, plus the young guys producing cheaply and the Cubs would be in a pretty good position to compete in the division (at least) next year and continue improving from there.

The $60M you quote doesn't include the fact that you're keeping Aram. Also, as I have said in other threads, that $45M isn't guaranteed to be thrown right back into payroll. Attendance is down which means that concessions are down. The payroll was reduced going into this year and the players leaving need to be replaced. It is too presumptive to assume that the payroll next year will remain the same, or even increase. It is a business.

 

I'm not trying to be combative, I'm saying that the team needs to consider trading while someone's value is at it's highest. I wouldn't let him go for "a couple prospects", the deal would have to include some very good major league ready talent. Maybe a team is willing to do that, maybe not but I think it's worth investigating either way.

Edited July 20, 2011 by BeerHere

[Irrelevant Dude]

In a team full of holes, trading away one of the solid contributors (perhaps THE solid contributor) is a pretty good way to retool. Aramis is very good and he's having a good year, but he can bring a couple blue-chip prospects in return I would do it in a second. Same goes for Marmol, Soto.... A 2012 team with Aramis and no other changes will be terrible (again). Trade him while his value is highest (for once).

 

Let the slamming begin.

 

Major market teams don't trade away cornerstone players for prospects.

Aramis just turned 33 years old. Do you really think the Cubs will compete for a World Series ring in the next 2 years or so when he could still be a major contributor? If the answer to that question is no, then trading him for prospects seems like a good idea to me. I'm not opposed to picking up the option, or even giving him a 2-year extension in place of the option, but if the Cubs can get good value in return for him then I'm all for it. They may have to spend the same amount of money to attempt to replace him, but then they will have replaced him plus gained young talent in return. It all comes down to whether the Cubs are going to continue to try to patch teams together or if they may actually commit to building for a few years down the road.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Of course the Cubs can compete within the next two years. It'd be silly to punt two full seasons with a major-market team.

[XZero771679666304]

The $60M you quote doesn't include the fact that you're keeping Aram. Also, as I have said in other threads, that $45M isn't guaranteed to be thrown right back into payroll. Attendance is down which means that concessions are down. The payroll was reduced going into this year and there players leaving need to be replaced. It is fooling to think that the payroll next year will remain the same.

 

I'm not trying to be combative, I'm saying that the team needs to consider trading while someone's value is at it's highest. I wouldn't let him go for "a couple prospects", the deal would have to include some very good major league ready talent. Maybe a team is willing to do that, maybe not but I think it's worth investigating either way.

 

It's no more foolish to assume payroll will remain the same than to assume it will go down. A big market team isn't going to respond to reduced attendance by slashing payroll, especially after raising ticket prices.

 

If the team retains Ramirez, that leaves two, maybe three holes to fill. And we're probably looking at at least 40MM to fill those 2-3 holes. Retaining Ramirez next year won't handcuff the Cubs in any significant way. Trading him would create a hole even harder to fill than the others.