ESPN doing a great job of piling on

[UMFan83]

Bartman is an afterthought in why the Cubs lost, but Alou was absolutely going to catch that ball and it should have been called interference.

 

Honestly I don't think he catches it. Even if he puts it in his glove, it would have been a snow-cone catch and I think the ball pops loose after his glove hits the railing on the way back down.

 

Man all these years and I feel strongly that he was going to catch that. My thought back then was, it looked on line to his glove, and at that point in the season things like that just seemed to go our way.

[SouthSideRyan]

Alou is definitely catching that ball and it wasn't interference.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

We are many posts into a "Game 6 blame" discussion and no one has yet mentioned Mark Prior throwing 116 pitches with a double-digit lead in Game 2, after his arm had been flogged into oblivion in the second half.

 

You should all be ashamed.

[SouthSideRyan]

We are many posts into a "Game 6 blame" discussion and no one has yet mentioned Mark Prior throwing 116 pitches with a double-digit lead in Game 2, after his arm had been flogged into oblivion in the second half.

 

You should all be ashamed.

 

Or opting to have Mark Guthrie face Mike Lowell rather than Dave Veres face Lenny Harris?

[Sammy Sofa]

We are many posts into a "Game 6 blame" discussion and no one has yet mentioned Mark Prior throwing 116 pitches with a double-digit lead in Game 2, after his arm had been flogged into oblivion in the second half.

 

You should all be ashamed.

 

Well, that's the main thing I was referring to when bringing up Dusty's inaction. He didn't go out there (or send the pitching coach) to try and buy some time to calm things down and talk to his pitcher, much less pulling him because he had pitched more than enough.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I'm going to be sitting up all night just sitting there, thinking about how much I hate Dusty Baker now. I wish I could find some spot he frequently stands at and poop on it.

[Sammy Sofa]

I think Dusty even kinda hates himself. There's nowhere that [expletive] story ever happened, and he knows it.

[UMFan83]

We are many posts into a "Game 6 blame" discussion and no one has yet mentioned Mark Prior throwing 116 pitches with a double-digit lead in Game 2, after his arm had been flogged into oblivion in the second half.

 

You should all be ashamed.

 

Meh, I mentioned that Dusty finally decided prior had enough and that he wasnt sharp in the 7th despite a 1-2-3 inning. There is so much you can discuss about that game and series, it would fill a book.

[erik316wttn]

It took me a while before I could be over Game 6. This thread is making me regress.

[TruffleShuffle]

We are many posts into a "Game 6 blame" discussion and no one has yet mentioned Mark Prior throwing 116 pitches with a double-digit lead in Game 2, after his arm had been flogged into oblivion in the second half.

 

You should all be ashamed.

 

Or opting to have Mark Guthrie face Mike Lowell rather than Dave Veres face Lenny Harris?

 

there were so many things that dusty screwed up so terribly in that series. the bartman thing really bailed him out from a lot of criticism that would have (and should have) come his way.

 

i [expletive] hate dusty baker.

[javy knows my name]

Good news: This thread is no longer rant #12983 about ESPN

 

Bad news: It's about motherfucking game 6

 

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Tryptamine]

Good news: This thread is no longer rant #12983 about ESPN

 

Bad news: It's about [expletive] game 6

 

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

No doubt. I'm just as annoyed as everyone else about goat and Bartman mention #1532969, but between this turning into a game 6 thread, the Vitters thread and the dumb Kerry Wood argument in If the Cubs Were Sellers thread I just want to find a corner and crawl into the fetal position.

[Derwood]

I've still never seen Game 6. I was working an all nighter at the studio and was only getting random updates from people watching it in the control room. I didn't see any of the Bartman stuff until Sportscenter the next day

[Little Slide Rooter]

Well, I can't find bigger versions, but the images just before that basically show Bartman as part of a row of front seaters reaching up for the ball but not reaching over into the field of play (unless you're arguing that their hands several feet above the railing and technically a few inches over is interference). Everyone is reaching for it. Here's the biggest ones I can find:

 

http://cubbiescrib.com/files/2011/01/cubs.jpg

 

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0015/6299/steve_bartman_crop_340x234.jpg

 

The pics we posted before are after the ball has come down. Anything that could have conceivably called as interference on Bartman occurred after the ball was already uncatchable. Everything before that Alou is clearly reaching into the the stands far more than any of the fans are arguable reaching over the railing. His entire glove and part of his arm are past the railing.

 

Yeah, but what if beige jacket guy or Cubs sweatshirt guy had caught it? Then it would be known as the beige jacket guy ball or Cubs sweatshirt guy ball and headphones guy would have remained in obscurity, where they all belong.

[Brett]

Well, I can't find bigger versions, but the images just before that basically show Bartman as part of a row of front seaters reaching up for the ball but not reaching over into the field of play (unless you're arguing that their hands several feet above the railing and technically a few inches over is interference). Everyone is reaching for it. Here's the biggest ones I can find:

 

http://cubbiescrib.com/files/2011/01/cubs.jpg

 

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0015/6299/steve_bartman_crop_340x234.jpg

 

The pics we posted before are after the ball has come down. Anything that could have conceivably called as interference on Bartman occurred after the ball was already uncatchable. Everything before that Alou is clearly reaching into the the stands far more than any of the fans are arguable reaching over the railing. His entire glove and part of his arm are past the railing.

 

Yeah, but what if beige jacket guy or Cubs sweatshirt guy had caught it? Then it would be known as the beige jacket guy ball or Cubs sweatshirt guy ball and headphones guy would have remained in obscurity, where they all belong.

 

I hate beige jacket guy. Someone should make a documentary about him.

[KingCubsFan]

Its really hilarious how Cubs fans cant fathom how Bartman is a viable topic for a documentary

 

Yeah. The guy got a raw deal, but it's a pretty unique story in the way everything played out. About the only other thing I can think of in baseball that's similar is the kid who screwed over the Orioles with the home run catch.

That kid was responsible for a key homerun in a playoff game. Bartman interfered with a ball in foul play that Moises Alou, despite his temper tantrum, probably wasn't going to catch. If Alex Gonzalez doesn't choke, Bartman is a non story. Yet somehow nobody remembers Gonzalez.

 

Actually, the reviews of this doc make it sounds like it goes into everything that happened. That said, Bartman is clearly the heart of the story. Cubs fans can spin it all they want, but it was the start of a very dramatic series of events (and non-events in Dusty's inaction) wrapped in the larger context of where it was and what was at stake. Yes, Bartman was unfairly demonized and he didn't do anything wrong and he's not the reason the Cubs didn't go to the WS, but the repeated insistence of many Cubs fans like it's essentially a non-story and that the REAL story is Gonzalez booting the ball. It's not. A player screwing up a key play in a high pressure situation isn't unique. The Bartman situation and how people reacted to it is. That's why it's a story. Yes, most of the time people take a hack approach to remembering it or describing it, but it did inspire a very interesting reaction and series of events and a good documentary could do a lot with it. Hopefully this one will based on the skill of the guy behind it.

I'm sure the documentary will be well done, but in the end it's just another attempt by ESPN to make the Bartman story some sort of modern myth when, in reality, it's really just something they created. And the whole reason for it is, like you said, a player screwing up a key play in a high pressure sitaution isn't unique. It's already been done by Bill Buckner, even though Gonzalez's is right on par with it. But a fan screwing up his own team's chances at a World Series? We had never seen that before.

[UMFan83]

Yes, and the media went apeshit on Bartman, finding out his name and address and staking out his house for days. Now 8 years later I still get teased by friends about Bartman, who is someone I don't really think I ever blamed for anything for more than an hour after the incident occured and I started my long emotional cooldown from the collapse.

 

Yes, Cubs fans were rough on him at the game, throwing things at him and swearing in his direction, but its at least somewhat understandable given the stakes of the game and the emotionally destroying events that happened immediately after. Not saying it was justified to throw things at him and threaten physical harm, but thats something I'd expect many other fans to do in the same situation. That said, the majority of Cubs fans I knew at the time, including this board, was over Bartman within an hour or two of the game and placed the blame on everything else (Gonzalez, Dusty, goats, etc). But the media just took the story and ran with it and now because of that it's part of Cubs infamy, and I have to hear about it from people as if its supposed to enrage me to bring up his name, a la Buckner (which if you hear from Red Sox fans, supposedly that was another media generated scapegoat).

 

Truth is, I don't really hate AGonz either. Maybe its because it was only one of several miscues and gaffes that led to the collapse (albeit the biggest), or maybe its because the media didn't remind me about it constantly for years, or maybe its because he had been in my good graces with some clutch late game HRs in the regular season and had hit 3-4 home runs in the playoffs thus far. I don't really hate any one specific thing or person from that game, other than my overall general hate of Dusty Baker. But I guess I probably have various degrees of dislike. And on that list, Bartman is far far away from the top.

Edited June 20, 2011 by UMFan83

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm sure the documentary will be well done, but in the end it's just another attempt by ESPN to make the Bartman story some sort of modern myth when, in reality, it's really just something they created. And the whole reason for it is, like you said, a player screwing up a key play in a high pressure sitaution isn't unique. It's already been done by Bill Buckner, even though Gonzalez's is right on par with it. But a fan screwing up his own team's chances at a World Series? We had never seen that before.

 

Well, yeah, which is why you saying that they "created" the story right before doesn't make much sense. It's a memorable story because of how unique it and the larger context was/is, regardless of ESPN.

[VicCub]

In hindsight, that Marlin team was seriously loaded with talent and should have beaten us worse.

[UMFan83]

In hindsight, that Marlin team was seriously loaded with talent and should have beaten us worse.

 

Meh maybe. Other than Beckett, they had some pretty good pitchers but not great (Penny, Willis, Pavano, Redman). Don't get me wrong, there are no gimmies there at that point and time, but the Cubs obviously didn't see to have trouble with any of their pitchers, save Beckett after the 1st inning of game 1 (1.42 ERA after the first inning of game 1)

 

Their hitters were pretty damn good but again, our starting pitching was supposed to be our strength with Wood, Prior and Z starting 6 of the 7 games. (and we won the other one).

 

Breaking it down, we won games 2 and 4 handily, so I don't know if you can say they should have won the series 4-0 or 4-1. Then you have games 1 and 3 that could have gone either way, not to mention game 6 that would have went the Cubs way if not for a late game epic collapse

 

So I dunno, I think we would and did hold our own again them. It was more or less running into a team that was red hot and clicking on all cylinders, and them running into our top 3 starting pitchers who had been ridden hard the last 3-4 months of the season and were gassed. Z and Wood especially.

[Old Style]

Whether or not you believe Alou was going to make the catch (I think he would have, but I can understand why some think he would not have caught the ball), I cannot fathom how anyone can look at all the pictures and still say that Bartman was not reaching over the railing. That seems very obvious to me. No, he wasn't the only idiot reaching for the ball but he was the one that actually touched it. Therefore no one knows beige jacket guy's name. Who knows how things would have changed had he not interefered with the ball. But the Cubs still should have won that game.

[Exile on Waveland]

Bartman is an afterthought in why the Cubs lost, but Alou was absolutely going to catch that ball and it should have been called interference.

 

Honestly I don't think he catches it. Even if he puts it in his glove, it would have been a snow-cone catch and I think the ball pops loose after his glove hits the railing on the way back down.

 

Man all these years and I feel strongly that he was going to catch that. My thought back then was, it looked on line to his glove, and at that point in the season things like that just seemed to go our way.

 

I think the interference issue is debatable -- the ball/glove look to be right above the railing one way or another and the angle isn't really conducive to a precise answer -- but I've never really understood the argument that Alou wasn't going to catch the ball. His glove is like two feet directly below the ball; if that's not what an impending catch looks like, I don't know what does. It was going to take an unfortunate event for him not to catch the ball. An unfortunate event happened.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Exile on Waveland

[Exile on Waveland]

We are many posts into a "Game 6 blame" discussion and no one has yet mentioned Mark Prior throwing 116 pitches with a double-digit lead in Game 2, after his arm had been flogged into oblivion in the second half.

 

You should all be ashamed.

 

Or opting to have Mark Guthrie face Mike Lowell rather than Dave Veres face Lenny Harris?

 

This makes me want to read all the Game of Thrones books then spoil everyone in the TV Thread.

[Sammy Sofa]

Whether or not you believe Alou was going to make the catch (I think he would have, but I can understand why some think he would not have caught the ball), I cannot fathom how anyone can look at all the pictures and still say that Bartman was not reaching over the railing. That seems very obvious to me. No, he wasn't the only idiot reaching for the ball but he was the one that actually touched it. Therefore no one knows beige jacket guy's name. Who knows how things would have changed had he not interefered with the ball. But the Cubs still should have won that game.

 

He was reaching over the railing after the fact. The actual "interference" that prevented Alou from catching the ball occurred because Alou was reaching over the railing into the stands. After the catch isn't made Bartman's momentum is still carrying him forward and his hands end up over the railing.

[KingCubsFan]

I'm sure the documentary will be well done, but in the end it's just another attempt by ESPN to make the Bartman story some sort of modern myth when, in reality, it's really just something they created. And the whole reason for it is, like you said, a player screwing up a key play in a high pressure sitaution isn't unique. It's already been done by Bill Buckner, even though Gonzalez's is right on par with it. But a fan screwing up his own team's chances at a World Series? We had never seen that before.

 

Well, yeah, which is why you saying that they "created" the story right before doesn't make much sense. It's a memorable story because of how unique it and the larger context was/is, regardless of ESPN.

It's only memorable and unique because the media made it that way and they continue to perpetuate it. I remember waking up the next day and being shocked at how much attention he was getting; I had largely forgotten about it after all the other crap that happened. I expected Gonzalez's choke to be the center of attention.