ESPN doing a great job of piling on

[Sammy Sofa]

I fully cop to when I'm out of my element, and I am here with how you're going at this. I appreciate the more in-depth explanation, and it does help me get a better grasp of how you came to your conclusion, though I'm still pretty foggy on it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to be hinged on where contact between Bartman and Alou occurred as being the point where the ball would have been caught, correct? And that's all well and good, but I thing I can't get over is that all of the pictures and video seem to be showing Alou and Bartman making contact away from where the play theoretically would have been made if Alou was going to catch the ball (and this would be a good time to bring up one key thing which I'm unclear on, which is how from those photos you are concluding that the ball is "on the line" and not in the stands. Neither appears to be from an angle that makes that clear). So, yeah, Bartman and Alou are making contact on the line or even in the field of play, but where is the ball? Their contact appears to be the result of a distracted, excited fan making a desperate stab in the general direction of the ball (and failing to come close to catching it) and a not very good fielder trying to track a tricky catch. The photos and videos, to me, seem to be showing that Alou is going into the stands to catch the ball and Bartman is reaching over them in an effort to catch it, and that's why they hit each other. Again, I'm going to defer to the idea that there is more evidence to show me wrong (and it could easily be the case), but I don't think those photos are showing where Alou would have been if he had actually caught the ball. If he had caught it he would have caught it technically in the stands, but the contact occurred on the line or over the line.

 

But really, thanks for going the extra mile to spell out what you're saying.

[manbearcub]

Isn't that second picture (and possibly the first one too) after the ball already bounced off his hands? Rendering the entire conversation moot.

[Sammy Sofa]

Isn't that second picture (and possibly the first one too) after the ball already bounced off his hands? Rendering the entire conversation moot.

 

Yeah, that's the part that's sticking to me; it seems like CubmanPi's argument is relying on actually extrapolating where the ball was going and where Alou's glove was going before both encountered fans, and those photos don't allow or do that. The first one maybe is, but it's at a horrible angle to actually know or break it down as such.

[CubmanPi]

Nice contribution, Kyle. Thank you.

 

Nuts, I think I see what you're saying and I have an answer, but I'll have to read it again tomorrow. Thanks (non-sarcastic) for the counter.

[Sammy Sofa]

Cool, I appreciate you going the extra distance with this. I mean, if the evidence is there I have no problem being wrong, and curious if it is.

[CubmanPi]

I fully cop to when I'm out of my element, and I am here with how you're going at this. I appreciate the more in-depth explanation, and it does help me get a better grasp of how you came to your conclusion, though I'm still pretty foggy on it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to be hinged on where contact between Bartman and Alou occurred as being the point where the ball would have been caught, correct? And that's all well and good, but I thing I can't get over is that all of the pictures and video seem to be showing Alou and Bartman making contact away from where the play theoretically would have been made if Alou was going to catch the ball (and this would be a good time to bring up one key thing which I'm unclear on, which is how from those photos you are concluding that the ball is "on the line" and not in the stands. Neither appears to be from an angle that makes that clear). So, yeah, Bartman and Alou are making contact on the line or even in the field of play, but where is the ball? Their contact appears to be the result of a distracted, excited fan making a desperate stab in the general direction of the ball (and failing to come close to catching it) and a not very good fielder trying to track a tricky catch. The photos and videos, to me, seem to be showing that Alou is going into the stands to catch the ball and Bartman is reaching over them in an effort to catch it, and that's why they hit each other. Again, I'm going to defer to the idea that there is more evidence to show me wrong (and it could easily be the case), but I don't think those photos are showing where Alou would have been if he had actually caught the ball. If he had caught it he would have caught it technically in the stands, but the contact occurred on the line or over the line.

I'm pretty sure someone brought up before that the biggest leap I'm taking with this photo angle approach is that I'm just operating on the assumption that these are from the exact same instant. With no fans in one angle, it makes it almost impossible to tell.

 

My argument is only hinged on where Alou's glove is, not where the ball would have been caught. I simply can't agree with the assertion that Alou was clearly reaching into the stands. I never actually concluded the ball was on the line, just that there is an unprovable possibility that the very edge of Alou's glove is above the railing, and that the rest of his glove is clearly above the field of play. I used my conclusion of Alou's glove being in fair territory to assume 1) that Bartman was reaching over fair territory (can't be determined with fans removed from second angle), and b) that since they were both reaching for supposedly the same spot over fair territory (again, can't be determined), that's where the ball was going to hit.

 

So let's look at the ball. It was dumb of me not to before, but I was too hung up on where Alou was reaching. In the documentary angle (no diagrams this time), vertical lines drawn down from both edges of the ball come down on either side of the yellow line. In the traditional angle, the same lines come down over the middle of the green and blue sections of railing. Using the same concept as in the paint drawing, the two lines of sight cross somewhere above the field of play. The ball was in fair territory.

 

The margin of error between the times the photos was taken is not big enough to account for all of this distance, because the center of the ball in the original photo would have to appear to be left of the yellow line. In the documentary angle, you have a good idea of the vertical distance between the ball and Alou's glove. The trajectory of Castillo's popup makes it impossible that the ball's location from the traditional angle was ever viewed that far to the left, but still that close to the same horizontal level as Alou's glove. That would have meant that it was a screaming line drive, not a popup that hung in the air forever.

 

Where would Alou's glove have been had he caught it? A batted ball moves much faster than Alou's glove could have ever been moving. For how close the ball was to his glove, the remaining movement of his glove would have been negligible at best.

[Wilson A2000]

Is "Catching Hell" showing on On Demand right now? I wouldn't mind seeing this thing but I can't find it.

[NCCubFan]

Is "Catching Hell" showing on On Demand right now? I wouldn't mind seeing this thing but I can't find it.

It's on again this Wednesday, 9:00 P.M. Eastern time on ESPN and this coming Saturday, 8:00 A.M. Eastern time on ESPN2.

[CubmanPi]

Finally watched the DVR last night. I've always felt bad for Bartman, but I had no idea how bad it was for him. I definitely got caught up in the immediate aftermath and blamed him for a short time after the game.

 

I think Cabrera could have been doubled off, contrary to what I said earlier. It would have been close, but it's not a given he would have beaten the relay.

[glavine93]

i finally saw it too and i guess i never realized the extent of the scene at wrigley. a lot of people are just trash, john kass especially. i mean i wasn't really surprised at the food-throwers because those types will always be around, but i also felt sick when i saw the clip of kass sauntering up like he was king of chicago and apparently saying "do you know what you've just done?" who raised these losers? it's normal for alou/prior to act mad for a few seconds and especially when there could be a fan interference call, but once they move on it's time to shut up. i don't know if the cubs were just too delicate to deal with the crowd's loser mentality or if the marlins just started playing better, but seeing the spectacular collapse with fresh eyes made me much less sad, in retrospect, that they did not move on to the WS.

 

and oh god i did not realize TUROW was in this. he was a guest speaker in a class i was in once and was just cartoonishly self-enamored and my opinion has not changed at all.

 

all in all it was a miserable two hours, and it probably didn't need to be two hours. i've never been so glad to see a little clip of blagojevich though. the man never fails to cheer me up.

[Soul]

just cartoonishly self-enamored

 

Unfortunately this seems to be a more & more popular character trait in general these days.

[Sammy Sofa]

It's like you're actually trying to be a cranky old woman.

[Guest]

Why in God's name am I watching this again?

[J.R.]

Just watched it again. WTF