Re: 2010-2011 NBA Thread

[David]

Rajon Rondo gets to the free throw line less per shot attempt than Derrick Rose does.

 

And it's a good thing, what with him being such a marksman from the line.

[bukie]

This is all just a result of their 6-game winning streak anyway. It's amazing how confident fans get in their team after going on a bit of a run that included beating the Lakers. Unfortunately it's not going to get better anytime soon because the Bulls schedule is absolute cake for the rest of the month. We'll find out in April/May how good they really are.

You must not have been paying attention to the rest of the season if you think Bulls fans are just getting excited as a result of a 6-game winning streak. The west coast road trip without Boozer, playing reasonably well on the road in all but one game, the only real trouble the Bulls were having early on was in winning handily, and now they've done that the last 2 games. I don't think you have any clue just how difficult the first 21 games of the Bulls schedule were.

[SouthSideRyan]

Rajon Rondo gets to the free throw line less per shot attempt than Derrick Rose does.

 

And it's a good thing, what with him being such a marksman from the line.

 

If the entire NBA wasn't so busy inadvertantly attacking him, maybe he'd be healthy enough to hit his free throws.

[SouthSideRyan]

You are also not taking into account the Bulls playing both the toughest schedule in the NBA to this point, and also being without their second best player for 15 games. With Boozer and Orlando's schedule, Chicago is at least 18-6, most likely 19-5 and nobody is calling Orlando the better team.

 

As much as it pains me to say, Boozer isn't the Bulls 2nd best player.

[David]

Rajon Rondo gets to the free throw line less per shot attempt than Derrick Rose does.

 

And it's a good thing, what with him being such a marksman from the line.

 

If the entire NBA wasn't so busy inadvertantly attacking him, maybe he'd be healthy enough to hit his free throws.

 

rofl

[bukie]

You are also not taking into account the Bulls playing both the toughest schedule in the NBA to this point, and also being without their second best player for 15 games. With Boozer and Orlando's schedule, Chicago is at least 18-6, most likely 19-5 and nobody is calling Orlando the better team.

 

As much as it pains me to say, Boozer isn't the Bulls 2nd best player.

Considering how much Noah's struggled since Boozer came back, he might be. Or there's something wrong with Noah, which also wouldn't surprise me much.

[David]

This is all just a result of their 6-game winning streak anyway. It's amazing how confident fans get in their team after going on a bit of a run that included beating the Lakers. Unfortunately it's not going to get better anytime soon because the Bulls schedule is absolute cake for the rest of the month. We'll find out in April/May how good they really are.

You must not have been paying attention to the rest of the season if you think Bulls fans are just getting excited as a result of a 6-game winning streak. The west coast road trip without Boozer, playing reasonably well on the road in all but one game, the only real trouble the Bulls were having early on was in winning handily, and now they've done that the last 2 games. I don't think you have any clue just how difficult the first 21 games of the Bulls schedule were.

 

 

Yup. Hardest schedule in the league, pretty easily, even after 3 of our last 4 games have been against Cleveland, Minnesota, and Indiana.

[JonJayCutler]

This isn't even me being a homer. I'm pretty sure 9 out of 10 people who aren't fans of either team would tell you Orlando is still the superior team. But we aren't even having this discussion if half our team doesn't come down with the flu right before the road trip out West. If you don't think all four of our losses last week were tied to the team having/getting over the flu then I don't know what to tell you. Without it we go 3-1 at worst over those 4.

If you don't think the Bulls and Magic are in a similar position this year in terms of conference finish in the standings, then you're being a homer. 9 out of 10 people who aren't fans of either would view both as a step behind Boston and Miami, currently. Just because the Magic are a bad matchup right now for the Bulls specifically, doesn't mean a whole lot in terms of the teams' outlook for the season and playoffs.

 

I never said the Bulls wouldn't finish near the Magic in the standings. They'll probably indeed finish 4th. What I basically said is that ranking them ahead of Orlando right now is BS because they've done nothing to prove they are better. And again, it's being assumed that the Magic being ravaged by the flu has somehow weakened the team for good. Without the flu, Orlando is at least 18-6, most likely 19-5 and nobody is calling Chicago the better team.

You are also not taking into account the Bulls playing both the toughest schedule in the NBA to this point, and also being without their second best player for 15 games. With Boozer and Orlando's schedule, Chicago is at least 18-6, most likely 19-5 and nobody is calling Orlando the better team.

 

Sure that can definitely be argued, but it doesn't really prove that the Bulls deserve to be ranked higher. And this argument of "we're a better team, just not when we play head-to-head" is absolute BS. Part of being a better team is head-to-head results, which Orlando has dominated and have shown no signs that they won't continue to dominate.

 

So if the point being made here is that Chicago plays better against some teams then sure you have an argument, but since a matchup in the playoffs is a decent possibility, you absolutely have to account for head-to-head games to get the overall picture. And you can't really use the Boozer thing in regards to the Magic game earlier this month. Not only did he play in the game but even if he was 100% it would have not affected the outcome.

 

Of course the Magic are certainly not 30 points better, they may even lose a game against the Bulls this year, but I have no doubt in my mind which team would win in a 7-game playoff series assuming both teams are at full strength.

[bukie]

Sure, part of being a better team involves head-to-head results, which is why it's used in tiebreakers.

 

However, a 3-game sample size over an 82 game season (and especially a one-game sample size over 25 games) is hardly a reliable data point in measuring two teams' overall quality.

 

You've pretty clearly demonstrated you only saw the Bulls play in the one game against the Magic, which was the perfect storm of bad for them. Boozer's first game back, the first game after the circus trip, and by far the Bulls worst played game of the year. It's hardly a reliable barometer.

 

It's also hardly fair to use results from past years to determine the relative worth of teams this year, as the Bulls were 41-41 the past two years running. Of course the Magic were better the past two years. That's completely irrelevant right now.

[David]

Sure, part of being a better team involves head-to-head results, which is why it's used in tiebreakers.

 

However, a 3-game sample size over an 82 game season (and especially a one-game sample size over 25 games) is hardly a reliable data point in measuring two teams' overall quality.

 

You've pretty clearly demonstrated you only saw the Bulls play in the one game against the Magic, which was the perfect storm of bad for them. Boozer's first game back, the first game after the circus trip, and by far the Bulls worst played game of the year. It's hardly a reliable barometer.

 

It's also hardly fair to use results from past years to determine the relative worth of teams this year, as the Bulls were 41-41 the past two years running. Of course the Magic were better the past two years. That's completely irrelevant right now.

 

 

Especially with 60% roster turnover and going from the worst coach in the league to a good, perhaps great, one (although the Bulls did beat Orlando once last year and blew them out once the year before, IIRC)

[JonJayCutler]

It's also hardly fair to use results from past years to determine the relative worth of teams this year, as the Bulls were 41-41 the past two years running. Of course the Magic were better the past two years. That's completely irrelevant right now.

 

It's fair because although the Bulls have improved, I refuse to believe that they are THAT much better than they were last year. And even if they are, Orlando has been so much better the past few years that it would simply just narrow the gap.

 

And I do agree that the gap has been narrowed significantly.

[David]

It's also hardly fair to use results from past years to determine the relative worth of teams this year, as the Bulls were 41-41 the past two years running. Of course the Magic were better the past two years. That's completely irrelevant right now.

 

It's fair because although the Bulls have improved, I refuse to believe that they are THAT much better than they were last year. And even if they were, Orlando has been so much better the past few years that it would simply just narrow the gap.

 

And I do agree that the gap has been narrowed significantly.

 

Seems contradictory.

 

Anyway, as for the first part, then you refuse to believe the truth.

 

They were also better last year than their record said. They had a legit shot at 50 wins in February when they got hit hard by injuries (all of Rose, Noah, and Deng out together at one point) and hit a long losing streak.

Edited December 14, 2010 by David

[Guest]

LOL. I refuse to believe it.

[JonJayCutler]

I do refuse to believe it. Most Bulls fans are acting like they suddenly have a top 5 team in the NBA. It's ridiculous.

 

But I'm done arguing something that apparently can't be proven on either side. I certainly have my opinion and you all have yours. I'm sure we'll find out during the playoffs.

[rawaction]

Projected final standings according to BP's POW ratings (through 12/12):

 

East

1. Boston 66-16

2. Miami 58-24

3. Chicago 57-25

4. Orlando 51-31

5. Atlanta 48-34

6. Indiana 43-39

7. New York 40-42

8. Milwaukee 35-47

 

The 3-6 game is much more attractive than the 4-5 game. Atlanta is a dangerous team that has been together for a while. Probably not going to win a series, but they'll be a tough out either way. Indiana....eh, not so much.

[bukie]

I do refuse to believe it. Most Bulls fans are acting like they suddenly have a top 5 team in the NBA. It's ridiculous.

 

But I'm done arguing something that apparently can't be proven on either side. I certainly have my opinion and you all have yours. I'm sure we'll find out during the playoffs.

 

This is the extent of your "argument":

 

1. The Magic were better in the past.

2. The Magic dominated the Bulls in one game.

3. I refuse to listen to anything that suggests anything other than what I think.

 

All I'm saying is as of right now, in the NBA, there appears to be a clear top two tiers:

 

Tier 1: Boston, Miami, San Antonio

Tier 2: Dallas, LA Lakers, Utah, Orlando, Chicago

 

Of those teams, Chicago has played, by far, the toughest schedule in the first 25 games. With the division down this year, their best case scenario is to finish 3rd in the East, ahead of Orlando. This is actually possible.

[JonJayCutler]

It's also hardly fair to use results from past years to determine the relative worth of teams this year, as the Bulls were 41-41 the past two years running. Of course the Magic were better the past two years. That's completely irrelevant right now.

 

It's fair because although the Bulls have improved, I refuse to believe that they are THAT much better than they were last year. And even if they were, Orlando has been so much better the past few years that it would simply just narrow the gap.

 

And I do agree that the gap has been narrowed significantly.

 

Seems contradictory.

 

Anyway, as for the first part, then you refuse to believe the truth.

 

They were also better last year than their record said. They had a legit shot at 50 wins in February when they got hit hard by injuries (all of Rose, Noah, and Deng out together at one point) and hit a long losing streak.

 

And that's also contradictory. If they were better last year than their record showed, then how can they be "THAT much better" this year?

[SpongeWorthy]

I forget, if a team wins its division does it finish with a higher seed than every other team that didn't win its division?

[JonJayCutler]

I do refuse to believe it. Most Bulls fans are acting like they suddenly have a top 5 team in the NBA. It's ridiculous.

 

But I'm done arguing something that apparently can't be proven on either side. I certainly have my opinion and you all have yours. I'm sure we'll find out during the playoffs.

 

This is the extent of your "argument":

 

1. The Magic were better in the past.

2. The Magic dominated the Bulls in one game.

3. I refuse to listen to anything that suggests anything other than what I think.

 

All I'm saying is as of right now, in the NBA, there appears to be a clear top two tiers:

 

Tier 1: Boston, Miami, San Antonio

Tier 2: Dallas, LA Lakers, Utah, Orlando, Chicago

 

Of those teams, Chicago has played, by far, the toughest schedule in the first 25 games. With the division down this year, their best case scenario is to finish 3rd in the East, ahead of Orlando. This is actually possible.

 

Yeah and if not for the flu we'd be about 3 games ahead of Chicago. It's not like the Bulls would be like 20-3 if they had an easier schedule. I'd give them a few more wins, putting them around Orlando's record if they remained healthy. But still without proof that Chicago's the better team.

[SouthSideRyan]

I do refuse to believe it. Most Bulls fans are acting like they suddenly have a top 5 team in the NBA. It's ridiculous.

 

But I'm done arguing something that apparently can't be proven on either side. I certainly have my opinion and you all have yours. I'm sure we'll find out during the playoffs.

 

This is the extent of your "argument":

 

1. The Magic were better in the past.

2. The Magic dominated the Bulls in one game.

3. I refuse to listen to anything that suggests anything other than what I think.

 

All I'm saying is as of right now, in the NBA, there appears to be a clear top two tiers:

 

Tier 1: Boston, Miami, San Antonio

Tier 2: Dallas, LA Lakers, Utah, Orlando, Chicago

 

Of those teams, Chicago has played, by far, the toughest schedule in the first 25 games. With the division down this year, their best case scenario is to finish 3rd in the East, ahead of Orlando. This is actually possible.

 

I'm assuming your tiers are based on Sagarin, or something similar? I'd bump LA to tier 1, and put OKC and ATL in tier 2.

[SpongeWorthy]

All I can say is I wouldn't be confident at all about Chicago beating Orlando in a 7 game series unless big changes happen between now and playoff time. They're a nightmare matchup for Chicago.

[bukie]

And that's also contradictory. If they were better last year than their record showed, then how can they be "THAT much better" this year?

 

1. Changing Vinny Del Negro to Tom Thibodeau. I'm not sure the effect can be stated enough. This improved a decent defense to a near-top-of-the-league defense, and actually created an offense that consists of more than "GO DERRICK! DO SOMETHING!". Also, the team is now capable of using timeouts effectively. And Deng now shoots 3's instead of low-percentage 2's.

2. Upgrading from Hakim Warrick to Carlos Boozer. Technically, Taj was the starter last year, so it's upgrading Gibson to Boozer and Warrick to Gibson, but the net benefit is Boozer instead of Warrick. Do I even need to describe how big of an upgrade that is?

3. Signing Korver and Brewer instead of Hinrich and Flip Murray. Brewer is about as good a defender as Hinrich, and Korver gives the team 3-point range that was sorely missing the past two years, requiring opposing defenses to actually defend perimeter shots instead of sitting back to defend Rose.

 

So, the team is defending better, a real offense exists, and the opposing defense has to work harder to defend people other than Rose. Coupled with the continued improvement of Rose, Noah and Gibson, and the team is a LOT better than last year. And they weren't terrible last year.

[bukie]

I do refuse to believe it. Most Bulls fans are acting like they suddenly have a top 5 team in the NBA. It's ridiculous.

 

But I'm done arguing something that apparently can't be proven on either side. I certainly have my opinion and you all have yours. I'm sure we'll find out during the playoffs.

 

This is the extent of your "argument":

 

1. The Magic were better in the past.

2. The Magic dominated the Bulls in one game.

3. I refuse to listen to anything that suggests anything other than what I think.

 

All I'm saying is as of right now, in the NBA, there appears to be a clear top two tiers:

 

Tier 1: Boston, Miami, San Antonio

Tier 2: Dallas, LA Lakers, Utah, Orlando, Chicago

 

Of those teams, Chicago has played, by far, the toughest schedule in the first 25 games. With the division down this year, their best case scenario is to finish 3rd in the East, ahead of Orlando. This is actually possible.

 

I'm assuming your tiers are based on Sagarin, or something similar? I'd bump LA to tier 1, and put OKC and ATL in tier 2.

Combination of Sagarin, BP, and Hollinger. LA should be tier 1, but they've played like a tier 2 team so far. Which, with their crappy division, still will allow them to coast to the playoffs where they'll have to actually try. So, maybe they're a tier 1 team playing like a tier 2 team because they can.

 

OKC and Atlanta struggled early and have caught fire lately. I'd probably have them and Denver together in a small third tier. After that though, the dropoff is stark.

[UMFan83]

Rajon Rondo gets to the free throw line less per shot attempt than Derrick Rose does.

 

And it's a good thing, what with him being such a marksman from the line.

 

If the entire NBA wasn't so busy inadvertantly attacking him, maybe he'd be healthy enough to hit his free throws.

 

Rondo takes half as many shots as Rose, and is not even the 3rd scoring option that defenses key in on stopping. Rose is cutting through double teams and driving to the hole constantly.

[JonJayCutler]

And that's also contradictory. If they were better last year than their record showed, then how can they be "THAT much better" this year?

 

1. Changing Vinny Del Negro to Tom Thibodeau. I'm not sure the effect can be stated enough. This improved a decent defense to a near-top-of-the-league defense, and actually created an offense that consists of more than "GO DERRICK! DO SOMETHING!". Also, the team is now capable of using timeouts effectively. And Deng now shoots 3's instead of low-percentage 2's.

2. Upgrading from Hakim Warrick to Carlos Boozer. Technically, Taj was the starter last year, so it's upgrading Gibson to Boozer and Warrick to Gibson, but the net benefit is Boozer instead of Warrick. Do I even need to describe how big of an upgrade that is?

3. Signing Korver and Brewer instead of Hinrich and Flip Murray. Brewer is about as good a defender as Hinrich, and Korver gives the team 3-point range that was sorely missing the past two years, requiring opposing defenses to actually defend perimeter shots instead of sitting back to defend Rose.

 

So, the team is defending better, a real offense exists, and the opposing defense has to work harder to defend people other than Rose. Coupled with the continued improvement of Rose, Noah and Gibson, and the team is a LOT better than last year. And they weren't terrible last year.

 

Then I guess we define what "THAT much better" means differently. To me it means that Chicago is now a top tier team, which they would pretty much have to be in order to be better than Orlando. But you just pointed out they're Tier 2, and I agree.