College Football - Week 9 (Oct. 30th)

[shnsajax]

Those lifts have signage on them that states clearly that operating in high winds is prohibited. It would be nice of Indiana OSHA dropped the hammer on Notre Dame for criminal negligence, but I'm not holding my breath

 

that's just dumb

 

Its really no different than a construction accident where a company is in negligence to code. I don't know what he means by drop the hammer but the university will be held liable for something.

[Tracer Bullet]

Those lifts have signage on them that states clearly that operating in high winds is prohibited. It would be nice of Indiana OSHA dropped the hammer on Notre Dame for criminal negligence, but I'm not holding my breath

 

that's just dumb

 

Its really no different than a construction accident where a company is in negligence to code. I don't know what he means by drop the hammer but the university will be held liable for something.

 

there's almost 0 chance that they don't compensate the family greatly regardless of whether they're ever legally found to be at fault (and I doubt any civil suit will ever be filed). but wanting a hammer dropped on ND for criminal negligence is just meaningless message board fist pounding.

[shnsajax]

Those lifts have signage on them that states clearly that operating in high winds is prohibited. It would be nice of Indiana OSHA dropped the hammer on Notre Dame for criminal negligence, but I'm not holding my breath

 

that's just dumb

 

Its really no different than a construction accident where a company is in negligence to code. I don't know what he means by drop the hammer but the university will be held liable for something.

 

there's almost 0 chance that they don't compensate the family greatly regardless of whether they're ever legally found to be at fault (and I doubt any civil suit will ever be filed). but wanting a hammer dropped on ND for criminal negligence is just meaningless message board fist pounding.

 

If that happens there won't be a civil suit as that would be written into the settlement. The end result would be the same, lots of money going to the family.

[Tracer Bullet]

Those lifts have signage on them that states clearly that operating in high winds is prohibited. It would be nice of Indiana OSHA dropped the hammer on Notre Dame for criminal negligence, but I'm not holding my breath

 

that's just dumb

 

Its really no different than a construction accident where a company is in negligence to code. I don't know what he means by drop the hammer but the university will be held liable for something.

 

there's almost 0 chance that they don't compensate the family greatly regardless of whether they're ever legally found to be at fault (and I doubt any civil suit will ever be filed). but wanting a hammer dropped on ND for criminal negligence is just meaningless message board fist pounding.

 

If that happens there won't be a civil suit as that would be written into the settlement. The end result would be the same, lots of money going to the family.

 

well obviously, which is why I said I don't think a civil suit will be filed.

 

the point (from ND's perspective) isn't the money going to the family, it's the story. neither the family nor the university benefit from a law suit and I can't imagine ND is dumb enough to drag this out at all.

[jersey cubs fan]

But from the sounds of things something criminal happened.

[Tracer Bullet]

But from the sounds of things something criminal happened.

 

i'm not sure if something criminal happened or not. fairly sure that's why they have investigations. i'm amazed you can make that determination. oh wait, you're just speculating. nm

[SpongeWorthy]

But from the sounds of things something criminal happened.

 

i'm not sure if something criminal happened or not. fairly sure that's why they have investigations. i'm amazed you can make that determination. oh wait, you're just speculating. nm

 

Sounds like you're just as certain that ND isn't guilty of criminal negligence when you say that it's just meaningless message board banter to characterize it that way.

[Tracer Bullet]

But from the sounds of things something criminal happened.

 

i'm not sure if something criminal happened or not. fairly sure that's why they have investigations. i'm amazed you can make that determination. oh wait, you're just speculating. nm

 

Sounds like you're just as certain that ND isn't guilty of criminal negligence when you say that it's just meaningless message board banter to characterize it that way.

 

where did I say it was meaningless banter to characterize anything? I said it was message board fist pounding to want the "hammer dropped" (at least in part b/c no one knows what really happened yet).

[jersey cubs fan]

But from the sounds of things something criminal happened.

 

i'm not sure if something criminal happened or not. fairly sure that's why they have investigations. i'm amazed you can make that determination. oh wait, you're just speculating. nm

 

Sounds like you're just as certain that ND isn't guilty of criminal negligence when you say that it's just meaningless message board banter to characterize it that way.

 

where did I say it was meaningless banter to characterize anything? I said it was message board fist pounding to want the "hammer dropped" (at least in part b/c no one knows what really happened yet).

 

The hammer talk isn't very clear but you have adopted the message board apologist stance.

 

It seems to me very likely that something criminal happened. If they practiced indoors because of dangerous conditions then went outside the next day under same conditions and sent a kid into a structure that is not supposed to be used under those conditions it seems pretty clear to me that something criminal happened.

[SpongeWorthy]

Well drop the hammer is a phrase that can be used to mean anything. I'm sure ND has the war chest to weather just about any punitive damages that are doled out and I'd be very surprised if the football program is directly harmed, nor should it, unless something really negligent comes out.

 

So yes, in that case, it's unlikely that ND will have the hammer dropped on it in a way that will jeopardize its standing as a university or the football team. On the other hand, reflexively saying that it's nothing more than meaningless message board pounding is speculative too considering we don't know what the investigation concludes. It really seemed like you were saying there's no way anything criminally negligent happened because you sound convinced there won't even be a civil suit, let alone a criminal one.

[abuck1220]

they should put the pope in jail.

[abuck1220]

they'll have plenty of money to pay the family what with the income generated off their upcoming appearance in the motor city bowl.

[Butterscup1679666578]

they'll have plenty of money to pay the family what with the income generated off their upcoming appearance in the motor city bowl.

 

oh come on.

 

notre dame isn't going to make a bowl game.

[Tracer Bullet]

But from the sounds of things something criminal happened.

 

i'm not sure if something criminal happened or not. fairly sure that's why they have investigations. i'm amazed you can make that determination. oh wait, you're just speculating. nm

 

Sounds like you're just as certain that ND isn't guilty of criminal negligence when you say that it's just meaningless message board banter to characterize it that way.

 

where did I say it was meaningless banter to characterize anything? I said it was message board fist pounding to want the "hammer dropped" (at least in part b/c no one knows what really happened yet).

 

The hammer talk isn't very clear but you have adopted the message board apologist stance.

 

It seems to me very likely that something criminal happened. If they practiced indoors because of dangerous conditions then went outside the next day under same conditions and sent a kid into a structure that is not supposed to be used under those conditions it seems pretty clear to me that something criminal happened.

 

message board apologist? how about "let's see what happens before we tear people down in a tragedy." We can say whatever we want about dropping hammers on ND, but the reality is there is an individual or individuals who were closest to this kid (in terms of his employment). They may have some liability for him being up there. But even if they don't, I guarantee they're living with incredible guilt right now. So maybe, on the off chance that they didn't do anything wrong, we should wait a few hours for the investigation before villifying them.

 

as for your criminal negligence logic - it's air tight, I'm sure. But I'll be shocked if this kid didn't sign a pretty solid waiver in ND's favor (if you look around online, you can find the one that applies and it says pretty much what you'd want it to say if you were ND - assuming the kid got the training that the policy requires). And if the equipment says right on it the wind restrictions and no one forced him to go up there (at least threatening him with his job - which isn't paid, btw - or more), then how liable is the kid himself? (he tweeted that he was terrified up there about 30 minutes before the collapse - why didn't he come down or tell his boss or someone that it wasn't safe?)

 

Here's the thing about tragedies. You can either fault the organization b/c it's easy and it makes you feel better or you can look at something critically and possibly lay some blame at the feet of the victim. That sucks and it's really hard, but sometimes that's the way these things play out. So I don't know what OSHA will conclude but this isn't as easy as "oh, they practiced inside yesterday and outside today, so they're criminally negligent." There's a hell of a lot more to it than that.

[Flames24Rulz]

they'll have plenty of money to pay the family what with the income generated off their upcoming appearance in the motor city bowl.

 

oh come on.

 

notre dame isn't going to make a bowl game.

 

I like abuck's guess.

 

How about losing in the Motor City Bowl to NIU? Perfect.

[Tracer Bullet]

Well drop the hammer is a phrase that can be used to mean anything. I'm sure ND has the war chest to weather just about any punitive damages that are doled out and I'd be very surprised if the football program is directly harmed, nor should it, unless something really negligent comes out.

 

So yes, in that case, it's unlikely that ND will have the hammer dropped on it in a way that will jeopardize its standing as a university or the football team. On the other hand, reflexively saying that it's nothing more than meaningless message board pounding is speculative too considering we don't know what the investigation concludes. It really seemed like you were saying there's no way anything criminally negligent happened because you sound convinced there won't even be a civil suit, let alone a criminal one.

 

let's separate out the pieces b/c it seems like you're confused. the reason i say there won't be a civil suit is ND will likely pay the family a lot of money. I'm fairly certain this kid signed a waiver and if ND wanted to, they could defend a law suit. Heck, they might even have a really good chance of winning, depending on the factors and exactly what the waiver says. But that's not wise business policy and I don't think they'll do it. I think they'll move quickly to settle with the family quietly. Unless something really bad happened, like Coach Kelly threatened to punch the kid if he didn't go up in the lift, I doubt the family wants this tragedy to be a national news item. So that's why I don't think there will be a civil case.

 

I've said nothing about a criminal action nor even implied anything. I've said I think we should wait until the investigation concludes before vilifying ND or anyone else. The investigation will tell us whether there will be a criminal action.

 

I take issue with reading this story and grabbing your e-pitchforks b/c you don't know everything that happened and you look kind of dumb. My issue with was the "drop the hammer" language, nothing more. [not you as in you, sponge, you in the collective sense]

[Tracer Bullet]

they should put the pope in jail.

 

now i'm on board with that. i wonder if derwood has an e-pitchfork i can borrow.

[Andy]

I for one can't believe they practiced outside in those winds. I live here and the wind was ridiculous the last two days. I feel horrible for the kid's family and I don't understand why Kelly held practice outside in those conditions, or at least why people felt the need to film from above in them.

 

R.I.P. Declan Sullivan.

[hawkeyecub]

Oh come on, no one has pointed out that the first and last sentences of GR's sig are "We are Notre Dame football. Prepare to die."

 

It's insanity that they were up there and will be interesting to see if he made his concerns known and whether he was ordered to still stay up there.

[Tracer Bullet]

Oh come on, no one has pointed out that the first and last sentences of GR's sig are "We are Notre Dame football. Prepare to die."

 

It's insanity that they were up there and will be interesting to see if he made his concerns known and whether he was ordered to still stay up there.

 

i have sigs off. I totally forgot about that. It's from a letter exchange b/t an old ND blog and Michigan blog. Obviously referencing Princess Bride.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Oh come on, no one has pointed out that the first and last sentences of GR's sig are "We are Notre Dame football. Prepare to die."

 

It's insanity that they were up there and will be interesting to see if he made his concerns known and whether he was ordered to still stay up there.

 

i have sigs off. I totally forgot about that. It's from a letter exchange b/t an old ND blog and Michigan blog. Obviously referencing Princess Bride.

Uh huh. Where were you yesterday?

[Derwood]

if someone on ND's staff told a student to go up in a lift when the conditions were hazardous for the student to do so, someone needs to be held liable. I doubt the kid went up on his own. The safe (and legal) operation of machinery falls on the employer

[hawkeyecub]

Apparently sportscenter ran a clip from Tressel two days ago whee he said they would be practicing inside because he was concerned about putting his video guys 50 feet in the air with that kind of wind.

[snoodmonger]

they'll have plenty of money to pay the family what with the income generated off their upcoming appearance in the motor city bowl.

 

oh come on.

 

notre dame isn't going to make a bowl game.

 

he meant in 2012

[Guest]

But when will they make a bowl game that they'll accept a bid to?