Derosa to Indians for Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer, John Gaub

[dew1679666265]

Dexter you said, "the Cubs lost because they couldn't hit RHP" is false and is a myth? What more evidence do you need to see in the POST SEASON. I don't give a hoot about the regular season and how well they did against some of the3, 4 and 5 RH starters in league during the REGULAR SEASON. In the POST SEASON, you are going against 1's and 2's RH Pitchers on most teams, this is where the Cubs have failed. I guess Jim and Lou disagree with you then about the need for left handed hitting. Meh, what do they know, they have only about 80 years of baseball knowledge to fall back on...

 

So the answer to great right handed pitching is to acquire bad left handed hitters? I don't see the logic. And Hendry isn't infallible - he signed Neifi Perez, Jose Macias, Shawn Estes and traded for Antonio Alfonseca. This is one case where I think he's wrong.

 

If you want good left handed hitting (which is fine), don't focus on Bradley at all costs or Aaron Miles, go after Jeremy Hermida or Luke Scott and keep a good hitter (DeRosa).

[mikeyt34]

The day I trust the opinion of a message board poster (Dexter), or my own opinion for that matter, over two seasoned veteran personnel decision makers (Jim and Lou), I will quit my day job and become a GM. Dexter...This isn't a competition to see how many opinions you can rip into in one day, I see your combative posts every day and they are tiresome. Try some decaf dude.

[Monco]

Dexter you said, "the Cubs lost because they couldn't hit RHP" is false and is a myth? What more evidence do you need to see in the POST SEASON. I don't give a hoot about the regular season and how well they did against some of the3, 4 and 5 RH starters in league during the REGULAR SEASON. In the POST SEASON, you are going against 1's and 2's RH Pitchers on most teams, this is where the Cubs have failed. I guess Jim and Lou disagree with you then about the need for left handed hitting. Meh, what do they know, they have only about 80 years of baseball knowledge to fall back on...

 

Search through the board, this has been discussed thoroughly. The Cubs hit good RHP well in the regular season too.

 

And of course you use the biggest copout, which is that Lou and Hendry agree with it. What about when Dusty was batting Patterson Neifi in the 1-2 spots and doing all sorts of other dumb things? We can't question him, because he has years of baseball knowledge, right? Basically you're saying we can never question anybody in charge of running a baseball team, which is really dumb considering that they make huge mistake all the time. Really weak.

Piniella seems to get the benefit of the doubt alot . Lou doesn't play Pie because hes not ready /good etc. but Dusty doesn't play him because he hates young kids etc. Lilly throwing 130 pitches in a game is ok because "Lou knows his pitchers"If Dusty did that.....

[anabiono]

Dexter you said, "the Cubs lost because they couldn't hit RHP" is false and is a myth? What more evidence do you need to see in the POST SEASON. I don't give a hoot about the regular season and how well they did against some of the3, 4 and 5 RH starters in league during the REGULAR SEASON. In the POST SEASON, you are going against 1's and 2's RH Pitchers on most teams, this is where the Cubs have failed. I guess Jim and Lou disagree with you then about the need for left handed hitting. Meh, what do they know, they have only about 80 years of baseball knowledge to fall back on...

 

Search through the board, this has been discussed thoroughly. The Cubs hit good RHP well in the regular season too.

 

And of course you use the biggest copout, which is that Lou and Hendry agree with it. What about when Dusty was batting Patterson Neifi in the 1-2 spots and doing all sorts of other dumb things? We can't question him, because he has years of baseball knowledge, right? Basically you're saying we can never question anybody in charge of running a baseball team, which is really dumb considering that they make huge mistake all the time. Really weak.

Piniella seems to get the benefit of the doubt alot . Lou doesn't play Pie because hes not ready /good etc. but Dusty doesn't play him because he hates young kids etc. Lilly throwing 130 pitches in a game is ok because "Lou knows his pitchers"If Dusty did that.....

 

i like lou a heck of a lot better than dusty...but lou has made some pretty craptacular calls/non calls in the last two postseasons...

[17 Seconds]

The day I trust the opinion of a message board poster (Dexter), or my own opinion for that matter, over two seasoned veteran personnel decision makers (Jim and Lou), I will quit my day job and become a GM. Dexter...This isn't a competition to see how many opinions you can rip into in one day, I see your combative posts every day and they are tiresome. Try some decaf dude.

 

i'm just saying, it's really weak to just say "well jim and lou say it and they know more than you" and it pretty much tells everybody that you can't defend your argument. it's a copout. so next time somebody gives juan pierre 50 million or barry zito 126 million, you can't say anything...... ecause those contracts were issues by "seasoned veteran personnel decision maker" and you're just an message board poster.

 

the truth is that these guys make mistakes all the time, and a lot of the time you can spot the mistakes right when they happen.

[17 Seconds]

Dexter you said, "the Cubs lost because they couldn't hit RHP" is false and is a myth? What more evidence do you need to see in the POST SEASON. I don't give a hoot about the regular season and how well they did against some of the3, 4 and 5 RH starters in league during the REGULAR SEASON. In the POST SEASON, you are going against 1's and 2's RH Pitchers on most teams, this is where the Cubs have failed. I guess Jim and Lou disagree with you then about the need for left handed hitting. Meh, what do they know, they have only about 80 years of baseball knowledge to fall back on...

 

Search through the board, this has been discussed thoroughly. The Cubs hit good RHP well in the regular season too.

 

And of course you use the biggest copout, which is that Lou and Hendry agree with it. What about when Dusty was batting Patterson Neifi in the 1-2 spots and doing all sorts of other dumb things? We can't question him, because he has years of baseball knowledge, right? Basically you're saying we can never question anybody in charge of running a baseball team, which is really dumb considering that they make huge mistake all the time. Really weak.

Piniella seems to get the benefit of the doubt alot . Lou doesn't play Pie because hes not ready /good etc. but Dusty doesn't play him because he hates young kids etc. Lilly throwing 130 pitches in a game is ok because "Lou knows his pitchers"If Dusty did that.....

 

i wasn't really comparing lou to dusty, i was just giving in example of how a person being in charge doesn't mean he's right all the time (or even often).

[dew1679666265]

Dexter you said, "the Cubs lost because they couldn't hit RHP" is false and is a myth? What more evidence do you need to see in the POST SEASON. I don't give a hoot about the regular season and how well they did against some of the3, 4 and 5 RH starters in league during the REGULAR SEASON. In the POST SEASON, you are going against 1's and 2's RH Pitchers on most teams, this is where the Cubs have failed. I guess Jim and Lou disagree with you then about the need for left handed hitting. Meh, what do they know, they have only about 80 years of baseball knowledge to fall back on...

 

Search through the board, this has been discussed thoroughly. The Cubs hit good RHP well in the regular season too.

 

And of course you use the biggest copout, which is that Lou and Hendry agree with it. What about when Dusty was batting Patterson Neifi in the 1-2 spots and doing all sorts of other dumb things? We can't question him, because he has years of baseball knowledge, right? Basically you're saying we can never question anybody in charge of running a baseball team, which is really dumb considering that they make huge mistake all the time. Really weak.

Piniella seems to get the benefit of the doubt alot . Lou doesn't play Pie because hes not ready /good etc. but Dusty doesn't play him because he hates young kids etc. Lilly throwing 130 pitches in a game is ok because "Lou knows his pitchers"If Dusty did that.....

 

I don't know, I've seen a ton of hatred for Lou over not playing Pie. We had multiple threads during the season asking if Lou was better than Dusty, does Lou know what the crap he's doing, here are all the bad moves Lou's making, etc. There were also the usual "Free Pie" and "Play Pie" posts and sigs and whatnot. He took a lot of flack.

 

And pitching Lilly for 130 pitches is a lot different than pitching a young Mark Prior or Kerry Wood that many pitches. Lou also took a lot of flack if he let Z get much over 100 pitches. He's taken plenty of flack, he's just gotten less than Dusty because he's such a better manager than Dusty.

[Monco]

The day I trust the opinion of a message board poster (Dexter), or my own opinion for that matter, over two seasoned veteran personnel decision makers (Jim and Lou), I will quit my day job and become a GM. Dexter...This isn't a competition to see how many opinions you can rip into in one day, I see your combative posts every day and they are tiresome. Try some decaf dude.

 

i'm just saying, it's really weak to just say "well jim and lou say it and they know more than you" and it pretty much tells everybody that you can't defend your argument. it's a copout. so next time somebody gives juan pierre 50 million or barry zito 126 million, you can't say anything...... ecause those contracts were issues by "seasoned veteran personnel decision maker" and you're just an message board poster.

 

the truth is that these guys make mistakes all the time, and a lot of the time you can spot the mistakes right when they happen.

 

Seasoned veteran. How about Theo Epstein ?

[Monco]

Dexter you said, "the Cubs lost because they couldn't hit RHP" is false and is a myth? What more evidence do you need to see in the POST SEASON. I don't give a hoot about the regular season and how well they did against some of the3, 4 and 5 RH starters in league during the REGULAR SEASON. In the POST SEASON, you are going against 1's and 2's RH Pitchers on most teams, this is where the Cubs have failed. I guess Jim and Lou disagree with you then about the need for left handed hitting. Meh, what do they know, they have only about 80 years of baseball knowledge to fall back on...

 

Search through the board, this has been discussed thoroughly. The Cubs hit good RHP well in the regular season too.

 

And of course you use the biggest copout, which is that Lou and Hendry agree with it. What about when Dusty was batting Patterson Neifi in the 1-2 spots and doing all sorts of other dumb things? We can't question him, because he has years of baseball knowledge, right? Basically you're saying we can never question anybody in charge of running a baseball team, which is really dumb considering that they make huge mistake all the time. Really weak.

Piniella seems to get the benefit of the doubt alot . Lou doesn't play Pie because hes not ready /good etc. but Dusty doesn't play him because he hates young kids etc. Lilly throwing 130 pitches in a game is ok because "Lou knows his pitchers"If Dusty did that.....

 

I don't know, I've seen a ton of hatred for Lou over not playing Pie. We had multiple threads during the season asking if Lou was better than Dusty, does Lou know what the crap he's doing, here are all the bad moves Lou's making, etc. There were also the usual "Free Pie" and "Play Pie" posts and sigs and whatnot. He took a lot of flack.

 

And pitching Lilly for 130 pitches is a lot different than pitching a young Mark Prior or Kerry Wood that many pitches. Lou also took a lot of flack if he let Z get much over 100 pitches. He's taken plenty of flack, he's just gotten less than Dusty because he's such a better manager than Dusty.

 

Managers seem to get too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose.

[dew1679666265]

Dexter you said, "the Cubs lost because they couldn't hit RHP" is false and is a myth? What more evidence do you need to see in the POST SEASON. I don't give a hoot about the regular season and how well they did against some of the3, 4 and 5 RH starters in league during the REGULAR SEASON. In the POST SEASON, you are going against 1's and 2's RH Pitchers on most teams, this is where the Cubs have failed. I guess Jim and Lou disagree with you then about the need for left handed hitting. Meh, what do they know, they have only about 80 years of baseball knowledge to fall back on...

 

Search through the board, this has been discussed thoroughly. The Cubs hit good RHP well in the regular season too.

 

And of course you use the biggest copout, which is that Lou and Hendry agree with it. What about when Dusty was batting Patterson Neifi in the 1-2 spots and doing all sorts of other dumb things? We can't question him, because he has years of baseball knowledge, right? Basically you're saying we can never question anybody in charge of running a baseball team, which is really dumb considering that they make huge mistake all the time. Really weak.

Piniella seems to get the benefit of the doubt alot . Lou doesn't play Pie because hes not ready /good etc. but Dusty doesn't play him because he hates young kids etc. Lilly throwing 130 pitches in a game is ok because "Lou knows his pitchers"If Dusty did that.....

 

I don't know, I've seen a ton of hatred for Lou over not playing Pie. We had multiple threads during the season asking if Lou was better than Dusty, does Lou know what the crap he's doing, here are all the bad moves Lou's making, etc. There were also the usual "Free Pie" and "Play Pie" posts and sigs and whatnot. He took a lot of flack.

 

And pitching Lilly for 130 pitches is a lot different than pitching a young Mark Prior or Kerry Wood that many pitches. Lou also took a lot of flack if he let Z get much over 100 pitches. He's taken plenty of flack, he's just gotten less than Dusty because he's such a better manager than Dusty.

 

Managers seem to get too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose.

 

That's usually very true.

[mikeyt34]

I can defend my argument...I have watched the heavy RH hitting Cubs line up fail consecutively two straight years in the post season and a change needed to happen. Whether it's Bradley, Dunn, Abreu, Hermida, Hoffpauir, or Miles, the Cubs need some left handed hitting, who can argue they don't? It's just plain to see. Lou has said it, Jim has said it, Steve Stone has even said it. Sorry but I think they may be on to something, and to enter the post season with Fukudome and Gathright as your main LH hitters is pathetic.

[SouthSideRyan]

The only consolation in this coming year's playoff exit will be when Jim Hendry with a straight face goes into next offseason saying how we need to get more right-handed. It's gonna be so awesome. Edited January 2, 2009 by SouthSideRyan

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Sorry but I think they may be on to something, and to enter the post season with Fukudome and Gathright as your main LH hitters is pathetic.

 

But Aaron Miles makes that less pathetic?

 

DeRosa is much better at hitting RHP than Miles.

[Monco]

I can defend my argument...I have watched the heavy RH hitting Cubs line up fail consecutively two straight years in the post season and a change needed to happen. Whether it's Bradley, Dunn, Abreu, Hermida, Hoffpauir, or Miles, the Cubs need some left handed hitting, who can argue they don't? It's just plain to see. Lou has said it, Jim has said it, Steve Stone has even said it. Sorry but I think they may be on to something, and to enter the post season with Fukudome and Gathright as your main LH hitters is pathetic.

We all agree that they could use another quality bat. If lefty,even better. Aaron Miles is a poor example though. He doesn't hit right handed pitching better than Theriot and fields worse. Bradley,Hermida etc. that would help. Miles platooning with Fontenot is much less production than Derosa platooning with Derosa. Our top hitters tanking in the post season has been the biggest problem. They need to step up. Getting another lefty bat without the others showing up still means an early exit.

[Monco]

Baseball Americas take on the trade

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/trade-central/2009/267390.html

[17 Seconds]

I can defend my argument...I have watched the heavy RH hitting Cubs line up fail consecutively two straight years in the post season and a change needed to happen. Whether it's Bradley, Dunn, Abreu, Hermida, Hoffpauir, or Miles, the Cubs need some left handed hitting, who can argue they don't? It's just plain to see. Lou has said it, Jim has said it, Steve Stone has even said it. Sorry but I think they may be on to something, and to enter the post season with Fukudome and Gathright as your main LH hitters is pathetic.

 

You've defended nothing. You've seen a Cubs lineup fail 2 straight years, but you have shown nothing to say that the fact that they were RH had anything to do with it. You're looking for reasons when in reality they froze up. THAT is what is plain to see. If it did have something to do with them beng right handed, it's not the reason they lost. Okay so add one or 2 left handed hitters. Now you lose by like 4 runs instead of 5. Sweet. Either way, they got blown out because they couldn't handle the moment. During the regular season they hit good RHP just fine, but the postseason starts and they suddenly are helpless? Right. I think I know what the more reasonable theory is.

 

And once again you end your post with a copout by naming 3 guys who have said it (by the way, did you know Lou and Jim work for the organization? What are they going to say? "We choked. This same group is going to choke next year too probably." No, they're going to lose for ways to change things, and this happens to be it. Again though, citing them is dumb. I've already explained to you why, you just are ignoring it. I'm sure I could find plenty of "seasoned veterans" who disagreed about the RHP nonsense. Hey, I'm pretty sure Mark Grace and Steve Phillips both said after the game that it was just a matter of them not handling the pressure. They must be right! Again, that's just a copout because you can't back up your argument, which is evident by the weak "I saw them play!" argument. As though good RHP suddenly become superhuman RHP in the playoffs.

 

By the way none of this matters becuase DeRosa has hit RHP MUCH better than Miles has in the past 3 seasons

[mikeyt34]

Dexter, you are such an angry little poster...Welcome to my ignore list..you are insufferable.

[Monco]

Fukodome was brought in at 4/48 to be the left handed middle of the order RF. He didn't hit in the post season either.

[17 Seconds]

Dexter, you are such an angry little poster...Welcome to my ignore list..you are insufferable.

 

Translation: You've just made arguments that have exposed everything I've been saying as BS, so I'm going to insult you and then put you on ignore so I don't have to back my claims up

[mikeyt34]

Sorry but I think they may be on to something, and to enter the post season with Fukudome and Gathright as your main LH hitters is pathetic.

 

But Aaron Miles makes that less pathetic?

 

DeRosa is much better at hitting RHP than Miles.

 

But this isn't about Miles, it's about acquiring Milton Bradley. Look, I hate losing DeRosa, never said I didn't, but as Hendry said, they couldn't move Ramirez, Soriano, Fukudome, or Lee, so DeRosa was the next name on the list that Hendry considered expendable to make salary room for a Milton Bradley contract. 3yrs of Milton Bradley + the 3 prospects from the Indians V.S. 1 more year of DeRosa...I don't like it necessarily, but I understand it.

[cubsfan26]

And Hendry isn't infallible - he signed Neifi Perez, Jose Macias, Shawn Estes and traded for Antonio Alfonseca.

 

 

He signed Neifi in 2004-2005, Macias in 2004 and Estes was brought in to be the 5th starter at 1y. Estes sucked that year but it can't really go down as a horrible move. Alfonseca also included Matt Clement and that deal was made by Andy MacPhail. Neifi was signed to please his manager at the time, who thought he couldn't have enough middle infielders. Hendry isn't infalliable and obviously the Fukudome signing looks scary right now, but when you look at the moves he made the last two years, and how much the team has improved he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

A year ago people were saying Hendry a idiot he moved Dempster into the rotation he's gonna get killed. They also were saying how can they keep Theriot at SS? He most likely overachieved in 2007 due to a big July, and will be even worse in 08. Then in May, people were saying Jim Edmonds, he sucks, he's done, Hendry is a idiot just play Pie. Then after the Rich Harden trade, and the good moves in 06-07. I'm willing to give Hendry the benefit of the doubt with Gregg, Bradley and using Fontenot as the primary 2b. The funny thing is Hendry got bashed for signing DeRosa in the first place, now two years later the same guy who made the good move in the first place is getting bashed for trading the guy. I think that should be a sign that we should just wait and see what happens, before we flip out. With the way things have working out for Hendry over the last two years, odds are things moves will work out better then people think.

Edited January 2, 2009 by cubsfan26

[17 Seconds]

The problem is you're only picking out his good moves and leaving out all the bad ones. Every GM has made some good moves and some bad moves.

[cubsfan26]

The problem is you're only picking out his good moves and leaving out all the bad ones. Every GM has made some good moves and some bad moves.

 

 

Other then Fukudome(who I still feel we haven't seen the best of him yet) what bad moves have their really been? We could even add making Wood the closer last year to that list of good moves as well, when many were saying he couldn't stay healthy enough to be the closer. In the last two years Hendry has made very few bad moves, and when he did it was often crap for crap. When a GM makes plenty of good moves, very few bad moves, and takes the team from the worse in the NL to the best in the NL in two years, he's doing a good job and deserves the benefit of the doubt on somewhat questionable moves until proven otherwise. Since many of his questionable moves over the last two years have worked out very well for us.

[17 Seconds]

The problem is you're only picking out his good moves and leaving out all the bad ones. Every GM has made some good moves and some bad moves.

 

 

Other then Fukudome(who I still feel we haven't seen the best of him yet) what bad moves have their really been? We could even add making Wood the closer last year to that list as well, even when many were saying he couldn't stay healthy. In the last two years Hendry has made very few bad moves, and when he did it was often crap for crap. When a GM makes plenty of good moves, very few bad moves, and takes the team from the worse in the NL to the best in the NL in two years, he's doing a good job and deserves the benefit of the doubt on somewhat questionable moves until proven otherwise.

 

Nolasco/Pinto/Mitre for Pierre

Soriano for 8/136

Fukudome was overpaid

Jones was overpaid and we ended up dumping him for nothing before the contract even ended

Marquis was overpaid and we're about to dump him for basically nothing

Jerry Blevins for 3 months of Jason Kendall

2 prospects for Steve Traschel

 

Those are just the ones I can think of from the past couple years. I'm not even saying this to rip Hendry though, I just think you're skewing his track record in his favor by only pointing out his good moves when he's had his share of bad ones. The Dempster contract could easily be another one, Miles is way overpaid, and I'm scared of what the Bradley contract might look like

Ceda for Gregg (imo)

 

And again, I don't think we should be congratulating him for making the playoffs 2 years in a row (one of which was luck and because we played in an awful division) considering that he has an enormous payroll and has also pretty depleted the farm system. When you're using that amounts of resources we better be making the playoffs and be a serious contender. Plus you mention that he took us from the worst team in the NL to the best in 2 years, but he was the one that got us to being the worst team in the NL in the first place.

 

I think overall Hendry is an average to slighly below average GM, but that's about as high as I'll go on him. I think he's really good at forming relationships but I think strictly baseball wise, he makes a lot of bad decisions and overpays a lot

[cubsfan26]

Nolasco/Pinto/Mitre for Pierre

Soriano for 8/136

Fukudome was overpaid

Jones was overpaid and we ended up dumping him for nothing before the contract even ended

Marquis was overpaid and we're about to dump him for basically nothing

Jerry Blevins for 3 months of Jason Kendall

2 prospects for Steve Traschel

 

 

I was talking about Hendry since Piniella took over, the last two years. There's plenty of other good moves Hendry made between 03-05 that I didn't mention as well. The Pierre trade is the only trade I really feel was poor, and some of the other stuff you listed is very debateable. Soriano is a 17m per year player in this market, we don't know if we will age good or bad yet. Jones made 5.3m per year, and we got two solid years from him and dumped him before he lost it.

 

 

I don't see how it's a bad move to sign a guy, but get rid of him before he's bad. Sometimes you gotta sign a guy for more years then you want to get him to come to your team, and if you got the most use out of him, then get rid of him before he goes into the tank thats still a good outcome. Same thing goes with Marquis, he's gone 23-18 with a 4.43 in 61 starts(with a good chunk of innings) the last two years, and been a solid 4-5 starter for us. He's been worth the contract we paid him for the last two years. Were now dumping him because we no longer have use for a pitcher like him due to better cheaper options on the roster. With all the free agent pitchers signings over the last two years, I'm sure Marquis deal would be on the postive outcome list so far. At the time we signed Marquis we needed a pitcher who could eat up innings and who was durable, and Marquis was as good as we could have asked for.

 

 

 

Fukudome looks like he could be a bust right now, but lets see how he does next season before we draw a outcome there. As for the Kendall/Blevins trade, keep in mind we got Ryan Flaherty due to trading for Kendall as well. The Steve Trachsel deal was crap for crap, we gave up two crappy guys to see if Trachsel can give us 4-5 solid starts. It didn't work out, but it didn't really hurt us either when you look at the crap we gave up.

 

 

And again, I don't think we should be congratulating him for making the playoffs 2 years in a row (one of which was luck and because we played in an awful division) considering that he has an enormous payroll and has also pretty depleted the farm system. When you're using that amounts of resources we better be making the playoffs and be a serious contender.

 

If having a high payroll means making the playoffs two years in a row, we would have seen alot of other teams being alot better then they were. I hate when people say well Hendry is doing good because he's had money to spend. People can go look at teams with simliar or higher payrolls then us, and only one of those teams won more games then us last year. The Cubs aren't the only ones spending money, their just doing it more wisely then others, and deserve some credit for that.

 

 

Plus you mention that he took us from the worst team in the NL to the best in 2 years, but he was the one that got us to being the worst team in the NL in the first place.

 

Thats true, but he also had MacPhail there holding him back. Having Lee, Prior and Wood hurt had alot to do with our struggles as well. But to me, It's kinda hard to believe, that the same GM we have today, signed guys like Jacque Jones, Neifi and trading for Pierre. I really believe Hendry has improved alot as a GM over the last few seasons(stopped being old school and realize OBP is important), or he has at least alot better scouts working for him. Because the guy has made plenty of good moves the last two years, that very few expected to work out.

Edited January 2, 2009 by cubsfan26