2009 Chicago Bears offseason

[jersey cubs fan]

It has been upgraded, but it is a patch job, nothing more. Going into 2010 they are likely to be very desperate for linemen. The guards are all questionable, and Kreutz is not worth his cap number.

 

You keep saying this and I still don't know where you are coming from. What should the Bears have done that wasn't, in your opinion, a patch job? There was not a single free agent that they could have signed that would have been a long-term solution on the line. There has not been a single lineman traded that could have been a long-term solution on the line. The best they could have done to upgrade the line and not patch it up is the draft, which hasn't even happened yet.

 

If you are still upset that the line wasn't upgraded for the last few years, then that's a completely different issue. But the fact is, they got MUCH better at LT, while getting just 1 year older. They probably got better at RT, and got 7-8 years younger. They got bigger at LG, and stayed young. They have 4 lineman 27 or younger, with a decent chance of 3 of them starting.

 

I don't see how they are likely going be "very" desperate for lineman either way. Worst case scenario is Pace being forced to retire, Williams and Omiyale both failing miserably. I'd say it's a longshot that all 3 happens. They have a solid backup OT in Shaffer. They have Kruetz's replacement in Beekman. I could see them needing a guard, but it won't be out of desperation.

 

They needed to draft lineman early in previous years and draft them early this year. I'm not complaining about what they've done this year, but you're deluding yourself if you think they are set longterm. None of the guards are sure things, and Pace is a lock to miss time and/or deteriorate. Williams is still unknown. If he is anything short of franchise tackle, this team will have huge holes by 2010, let alone 2011. Shafer isn't young at all, and he's nothing but a backup, a placeholder, a guy you'd like to replace almost immediately after he'd take the job.

 

For now, they are fine. But they probably need a lineman in this year's top 4/5 rounds, and another in next year's as well. Now that they have a franchise QB, they are no longer going to have the freedom to go out and sign multiple free agent linemen, they are going to have to draft guys they can control and reasonable cost, because by the end of this season, they are probably going to have to talk extension with Cutler. And I'm not sure how long Forte is going to be happy under his very cheap rookie contract. Plus, Olsen is going to get a big deal if he starts getting real numbers under Cutler.

 

The defense is already deteriorating, and the best way to make up for that is with an elite offensive line that can control games. This line might be able to do that in the short term, but there's a lot of age and uncertainty there.

 

When did I ever say they were set longterm? I'm just arguing against you constantly bringing up that the line is a patch job like there was another alternative. They do still need to draft a lineman this year (probably a G in the 3rd or 4th). They still do need to spend a high draft pick on OL next year. I never said otherwise.

 

You keep going on about Shaffer being a backup, but he was part of one of the best OLs in the league in 2007. He regressed some in 08', but still gave up just 2.5 sacks and Cleveland was 8th in the NFL in rushing to the right side of the formation. If Pace goes down and Williams is ineffective, I have no problem with him stepping in. I still think he'll compete at RG. And no he is not young, but he's not old either at 29.

 

"If Williams is anything short of franchise tackle, this team will have huge holes by 2010". That's not even close to being true. There are plenty of teams that win a whole bunch of games without franchise tackles on either side (last year's superbowl teams to name two). Plus, if Williams is even a little better than servicable this year, that doesn't mean he can't be a franchise tackle in the future. If he falls flat on his face, you may have an argument here, but still I think Shaffer/Pace can hold the fort while the Bears bring in someone else.

 

Pitt won with a defense the Bears can only dream of having. And without any top draft slots available, they won't get back there for a long time, if ever.

 

The point is, the line is settled, for now, but clearly not for long.

 

oh and while you may not have said set longterm chiding my shortterm patch job comment suggests so

[rawaction]

 

Please tell me where there are "a lot" of areas that need upgraded? I think you are looking wayyyy to deep into last years defense, instead of keeping it in perspective a little. The D wasnt very good last year, but they have been very good in the past and its not like all the guys on D suddenly got old. They had a bad year, and had a [expletive] for a D coordinator. We have Marinelli who many NFL guys and players regard as the best DLine coach in the game.

 

I don't think you are looking deep enough. There are clearly a lot of areas that need upgrades. Still need a better pass rushing DE. Still need 1 more DT since you can't count on Dusty to help. Still need a FS worthy of an NFL roster. Still need an SLB upgrade. And that's just the defense. Offensively, the team needs 2 WRs and a FB at the least, and are weak at RG.

 

Marinelli and Lovie aren't going to make these guys better simply by their presence. And no, the defense didn't "suddenly" get old. It's been getting old since 2006, the last time they were even in the top 20 in defense in the league. Urlacher has gone from an elite MLB, to just a good one. Hillenmeyer has gone from underrated to a possible training camp cut. Mike Brown has gone from pro-bowl caliber S to unemployed and possibly retiring before the season starts. Tillman is 28, past the prime for a CB. Vasher is young, but an injury risk. Same with Tommie. Both starting DEs are over 30.

 

There are 2 ways to look at the defense. One is that this is the same defense (save for Tank and the safeties) that played 2 Superbowls ago. The other is that the Bears got a great defense by bringing in fresh, young, hungry talent in a system that maximized their abilities. Now if you look at the fact that many of the D doesn't have the same ability they had before due to being 2-3 years older and the only young talent they brought in has been Harrison and Payne....then things get very shaky on defense. I still say the Bears need to find at least 2 players that can contribute on defense in this draft (DL, DB) and still need the couple young guys they do have to step up in order to be any better defensively.

[Jehrico]

They needed to draft lineman early in previous years and draft them early this year. I'm not complaining about what they've done this year, but you're deluding yourself if you think they are set longterm. None of the guards are sure things, and Pace is a lock to miss time and/or deteriorate. Williams is still unknown. If he is anything short of franchise tackle, this team will have huge holes by 2010, let alone 2011. Shafer isn't young at all, and he's nothing but a backup, a placeholder, a guy you'd like to replace almost immediately after he'd take the job.

 

For now, they are fine. But they probably need a lineman in this year's top 4/5 rounds, and another in next year's as well. Now that they have a franchise QB, they are no longer going to have the freedom to go out and sign multiple free agent linemen, they are going to have to draft guys they can control and reasonable cost, because by the end of this season, they are probably going to have to talk extension with Cutler. And I'm not sure how long Forte is going to be happy under his very cheap rookie contract. Plus, Olsen is going to get a big deal if he starts getting real numbers under Cutler.

 

The defense is already deteriorating, and the best way to make up for that is with an elite offensive line that can control games. This line might be able to do that in the short term, but there's a lot of age and uncertainty there.

I don't understand the concern about the line in 2010 or 2011. The line is about the easiest thing to shore up in the draft, it won't be hard to address that hole when the time comes.

[SpongeWorthy]

I can't believe Peanut is already coming into his 7th season in the league.

[Jehrico]

 

Really? Is it that ridiculous to be concerned that the upgrade at quarterback might not help enough to offset the poor group of receivers, questionable offensive line, and average and aging defense? It is also reasonable to doubt that Cutler will be a perennial All Pro with the Bears. I hope it happens, but I don't think it's the slam dunk like most seem to think.

No, but it's ridiculous to think the Cutler move was a bad move just because the team had numerous needs. I don't think anyone was expecting them to turn what they had last year into a sure-bet superbowl team in one season. Getting Cutler was the single biggest move they could make to upgrade the team. The line can be addressed in the draft if needed (I don't think it's as bad as some are making it out to be). The defensive questions were going to exist regardless (although I think it's more a question of Babich not being a good coordinator than aging). Criticizing the Cutler move because Cutler can't improve the defense (at least not directly...if he can increase our time of possession he'll help) or other such things is kind of ridiculous.

[rawaction]

They needed to draft lineman early in previous years and draft them early this year. I'm not complaining about what they've done this year, but you're deluding yourself if you think they are set longterm. None of the guards are sure things, and Pace is a lock to miss time and/or deteriorate. Williams is still unknown. If he is anything short of franchise tackle, this team will have huge holes by 2010, let alone 2011. Shafer isn't young at all, and he's nothing but a backup, a placeholder, a guy you'd like to replace almost immediately after he'd take the job.

 

For now, they are fine. But they probably need a lineman in this year's top 4/5 rounds, and another in next year's as well. Now that they have a franchise QB, they are no longer going to have the freedom to go out and sign multiple free agent linemen, they are going to have to draft guys they can control and reasonable cost, because by the end of this season, they are probably going to have to talk extension with Cutler. And I'm not sure how long Forte is going to be happy under his very cheap rookie contract. Plus, Olsen is going to get a big deal if he starts getting real numbers under Cutler.

 

The defense is already deteriorating, and the best way to make up for that is with an elite offensive line that can control games. This line might be able to do that in the short term, but there's a lot of age and uncertainty there.

I don't understand the concern about the line in 2010 or 2011. The line is about the easiest thing to shore up in the draft, it won't be hard to address that hole when the time comes.

 

That's a hard argument to win considering the Bears haven't shored up the OL in any drafts recently and had to bring in 3 free agents just to make it respectable this year.

[Keener98]

 

Please tell me where there are "a lot" of areas that need upgraded? I think you are looking wayyyy to deep into last years defense, instead of keeping it in perspective a little. The D wasnt very good last year, but they have been very good in the past and its not like all the guys on D suddenly got old. They had a bad year, and had a [expletive] for a D coordinator. We have Marinelli who many NFL guys and players regard as the best DLine coach in the game.

 

I don't think you are looking deep enough. There are clearly a lot of areas that need upgrades. Still need a better pass rushing DE. Still need 1 more DT since you can't count on Dusty to help. Still need a FS worthy of an NFL roster. Still need an SLB upgrade. And that's just the defense. Offensively, the team needs 2 WRs and a FB at the least, and are weak at RG.

 

Marinelli and Lovie aren't going to make these guys better simply by their presence. And no, the defense didn't "suddenly" get old. It's been getting old since 2006, the last time they were even in the top 20 in defense in the league. Urlacher has gone from an elite MLB, to just a good one. Hillenmeyer has gone from underrated to a possible training camp cut. Mike Brown has gone from pro-bowl caliber S to unemployed and possibly retiring before the season starts. Tillman is 28, past the prime for a CB. Vasher is young, but an injury risk. Same with Tommie. Both starting DEs are over 30.

 

There are 2 ways to look at the defense. One is that this is the same defense (save for Tank and the safeties) that played 2 Superbowls ago. The other is that the Bears got a great defense by bringing in fresh, young, hungry talent in a system that maximized their abilities. Now if you look at the fact that many of the D doesn't have the same ability they had before due to being 2-3 years older and the only young talent they brought in has been Harrison and Payne....then things get very shaky on defense. I still say the Bears need to find at least 2 players that can contribute on defense in this draft (DL, DB) and still need the couple young guys they do have to step up in order to be any better defensively.

 

I agree with what you said and in my next post after the one you quoted I acknowledged there are areas that need upgraded. However the guys we have here on our D should be able to form at least an average group on D if not slightly above average. I trust ANgelo enough to find some players in the draft for the D.

[dew1679666265]

They needed to draft lineman early in previous years and draft them early this year. I'm not complaining about what they've done this year, but you're deluding yourself if you think they are set longterm. None of the guards are sure things, and Pace is a lock to miss time and/or deteriorate. Williams is still unknown. If he is anything short of franchise tackle, this team will have huge holes by 2010, let alone 2011. Shafer isn't young at all, and he's nothing but a backup, a placeholder, a guy you'd like to replace almost immediately after he'd take the job.

 

For now, they are fine. But they probably need a lineman in this year's top 4/5 rounds, and another in next year's as well. Now that they have a franchise QB, they are no longer going to have the freedom to go out and sign multiple free agent linemen, they are going to have to draft guys they can control and reasonable cost, because by the end of this season, they are probably going to have to talk extension with Cutler. And I'm not sure how long Forte is going to be happy under his very cheap rookie contract. Plus, Olsen is going to get a big deal if he starts getting real numbers under Cutler.

 

The defense is already deteriorating, and the best way to make up for that is with an elite offensive line that can control games. This line might be able to do that in the short term, but there's a lot of age and uncertainty there.

I don't understand the concern about the line in 2010 or 2011. The line is about the easiest thing to shore up in the draft, it won't be hard to address that hole when the time comes.

 

That's a hard argument to win considering the Bears haven't shored up the OL in any drafts recently and had to bring in 3 free agents just to make it respectable this year.

 

The positive, though, is that this draft is very deep on interior offensive linemen. If Angelo chooses to address it in this draft, he should have a multitude of strong options even in the third and fourth rounds.

[Jehrico]

That's a hard argument to win considering the Bears haven't shored up the OL in any drafts recently and had to bring in 3 free agents just to make it respectable this year.

No, that's an easy argument to win. Show me where they ever put any emphasis into trying to shore up the OL in recent drafts. They haven't because they thought they were going to get more time out of the guys that they lost, so they focused on other areas. All they've drafted in the last couple of years was Beekman (who will replace Kruetz when his time comes), Grant in the 7th Round of 2007, and Chris Williams (who they knew was hurt last year when they drafted him but should be ready to go this year) last year. Beekman is on track, and they think Williams will be a major contributor. That's 2 out of 3 guys in two years coming along. They underestimated their future needs on the line a little bit, but that doesn't mean they can't fix it next year if need be. We shouldn't have to waste any picks on RB, QB, TE, or CB in the early rounds the next year or two barring any unforeseen circumstances.

[Jehrico]

 

That's a hard argument to win considering the Bears haven't shored up the OL in any drafts recently and had to bring in 3 free agents just to make it respectable this year.

 

The positive, though, is that this draft is very deep on interior offensive linemen. If Angelo chooses to address it in this draft, he should have a multitude of strong options even in the third and fourth rounds.

And, as history has proven, Angelo is better at plucking quality guys in the 3-5th rounds than he is in the first round.

[Jehrico]

 

Please tell me where there are "a lot" of areas that need upgraded? I think you are looking wayyyy to deep into last years defense, instead of keeping it in perspective a little. The D wasnt very good last year, but they have been very good in the past and its not like all the guys on D suddenly got old. They had a bad year, and had a [expletive] for a D coordinator. We have Marinelli who many NFL guys and players regard as the best DLine coach in the game.

 

I don't think you are looking deep enough. There are clearly a lot of areas that need upgrades. Still need a better pass rushing DE. Still need 1 more DT since you can't count on Dusty to help. Still need a FS worthy of an NFL roster. Still need an SLB upgrade. And that's just the defense. Offensively, the team needs 2 WRs and a FB at the least, and are weak at RG.

 

Marinelli and Lovie aren't going to make these guys better simply by their presence. And no, the defense didn't "suddenly" get old. It's been getting old since 2006, the last time they were even in the top 20 in defense in the league. Urlacher has gone from an elite MLB, to just a good one. Hillenmeyer has gone from underrated to a possible training camp cut. Mike Brown has gone from pro-bowl caliber S to unemployed and possibly retiring before the season starts. Tillman is 28, past the prime for a CB. Vasher is young, but an injury risk. Same with Tommie. Both starting DEs are over 30.

 

There are 2 ways to look at the defense. One is that this is the same defense (save for Tank and the safeties) that played 2 Superbowls ago. The other is that the Bears got a great defense by bringing in fresh, young, hungry talent in a system that maximized their abilities. Now if you look at the fact that many of the D doesn't have the same ability they had before due to being 2-3 years older and the only young talent they brought in has been Harrison and Payne....then things get very shaky on defense. I still say the Bears need to find at least 2 players that can contribute on defense in this draft (DL, DB) and still need the couple young guys they do have to step up in order to be any better defensively.

 

I agree with what you said and in my next post after the one you quoted I acknowledged there are areas that need upgraded. However the guys we have here on our D should be able to form at least an average group on D if not slightly above average. I trust ANgelo enough to find some players in the draft for the D.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought a big reason for the dropoff on D last year was Babich. Hopefully he figures out how to best use the guys we have.

[Keener98]

 

That's a hard argument to win considering the Bears haven't shored up the OL in any drafts recently and had to bring in 3 free agents just to make it respectable this year.

 

The positive, though, is that this draft is very deep on interior offensive linemen. If Angelo chooses to address it in this draft, he should have a multitude of strong options even in the third and fourth rounds.

And, as history has proven, Angelo is better at plucking quality guys in the 3-5th rounds than he is in the first round.

 

On defense yes, but he hasnt proven he can find offensive talent in the later rounds of the draft.

[Keener98]

I agree Babich was a big problem, but he cant be blamed for the entire collapse of the D.

[Jehrico]

 

That's a hard argument to win considering the Bears haven't shored up the OL in any drafts recently and had to bring in 3 free agents just to make it respectable this year.

 

The positive, though, is that this draft is very deep on interior offensive linemen. If Angelo chooses to address it in this draft, he should have a multitude of strong options even in the third and fourth rounds.

And, as history has proven, Angelo is better at plucking quality guys in the 3-5th rounds than he is in the first round.

 

On defense yes, but he hasnt proven he can find offensive talent in the later rounds of the draft.

He's never really focused much on the OLine in the 3-5 rounds.

[Keener98]

Right, so as I said, he hasnt proven he could find offensive talent in the later rounds. :D Hell it could be argued hes never found offensvie talent in any round, minus Forte.

[Guest]

I agree Babich was a big problem, but he cant be blamed for the entire collapse of the D.

Between Babich and the amount of time spent on the field, I think that accounts for a good portion of the defensive decline. I looked but couldn't find the defensive rankings by quarter. It seems as though an awful lot of the yardage and points allowed by the team was in the 4th quarter in 2008 (big caveat there, of course).

[Keener98]

I agree Babich was a big problem, but he cant be blamed for the entire collapse of the D.

Between Babich and the amount of time spent on the field, I think that accounts for a good portion of the defensive decline. I looked but couldn't find the defensive rankings by quarter. It seems as though an awful lot of the yardage and points allowed by the team was in the 4th quarter in 2008 (big caveat there, of course).

 

 

I agree that Babich sucked, and Ive been beating the drum of our D being better now that they shouldnt on the field as much throughout this thread. However, I dont know how much Babich can be blamed for the Dlines inability to get to the QB, Vasher getting torn apart, etc... Hopefully with Lovie in more control he will change up some schemes, and hopefully Marnelli is as good as Warren Sapp and Simeon Rice have said he is.

[Jehrico]

Right, so as I said, he hasnt proven he could find offensive talent in the later rounds. :D Hell it could be argued hes never found offensvie talent in any round, minus Forte.

Man, looking at Angelos last seven drafts, it's amazing how few offensive linemen he's taken. In 2002, he took Columbo in the 1st and Metcalf in the 3d round. In 2003, he took Bryan Anderson in the 7th round. In 2004 and 2005, he took no offensive linemen. In 2006, he took Tyler Reed in the 6th. In 2007, he took Beekman in the 4th and Grant in the 7th. In 2008, he took Chris Williams in the 1st, and a couple of no names in the 7th. Over 7 years, that's a grand total of 9 offensive lineman. That's two first rounders, two guys between rounds 3 and 5, and the rest are 6th and 7th rounders. Both of his first rounders started their careers with injury problems. The other two he took in the middle of the draft (3d through 5th rounds) haven't been super starts but have been more than justified their picks. In the 6th or 7th rounds, he hasn't done well on offense or defense (but then again, what GM is good at landing picks in those rounds?), with the lone notable pick being Chris Harris in the 6th in 2005.

 

I still think that there's on reason to be concerned about 2010 and beyond for the line...there's plenty of time to fix it, and like it was mentioned earlier, this is a great year to draft offensive linemen.

[BDWeav71]

Right, so as I said, he hasnt proven he could find offensive talent in the later rounds. :D Hell it could be argued hes never found offensvie talent in any round, minus Forte.

Man, looking at Angelos last seven drafts, it's amazing how few offensive linemen he's taken. In 2002, he took Columbo in the 1st and Metcalf in the 3d round. In 2003, he took Bryan Anderson in the 7th round. In 2004 and 2005, he took no offensive linemen. In 2006, he took Tyler Reed in the 6th. In 2007, he took Beekman in the 4th and Grant in the 7th. In 2008, he took Chris Williams in the 1st, and a couple of no names in the 7th. Over 7 years, that's a grand total of 9 offensive lineman. That's two first rounders, two guys between rounds 3 and 5, and the rest are 6th and 7th rounders. Both of his first rounders started their careers with injury problems. The other two he took in the middle of the draft (3d through 5th rounds) haven't been super starts but have been more than justified their picks. In the 6th or 7th rounds, he hasn't done well on offense or defense (but then again, what GM is good at landing picks in those rounds?), with the lone notable pick being Chris Harris in the 6th in 2005.

 

I still think that there's on reason to be concerned about 2010 and beyond for the line...there's plenty of time to fix it, and like it was mentioned earlier, this is a great year to draft offensive linemen.

 

 

Very few offensive lineman. I remember reading somewhere that since JA took over we have drafted the fewest amount of OL of any team.

[NCCubFan]

edit: You have to be kidding me...ret@rd is filtered out above? Come on now...

Yes, because many people consider it demeaning to mentally challenged people. You could call Turner a moron instead.

[Jehrico]

edit: You have to be kidding me...ret@rd is filtered out above? Come on now...

Yes, because many people consider it demeaning to mentally challenged people. You could call Turner a moron instead.

We filter out ret@rd, but we allow slant, [expletive], [expletive], and a whole plethora of other insults? Seems like a pretty inconsistent policy. Ret@rd is a stupid place to draw the line.

[Guest]

edit: You have to be kidding me...ret@rd is filtered out above? Come on now...

Yes, because many people consider it demeaning to mentally challenged people. You could call Turner a moron instead.

We filter out ret@rd, but we allow slant, [expletive], [expletive], and a whole plethora of other insults? Seems like a pretty inconsistent policy. Ret@rd is a stupid place to draw the line.

The word filter is one we have continually struggled with. It is tough to draw a hard and fast line. What we have done lately is to take the list from another website and run with that.

 

You will always find words that slip past the filter. And, frankly, if I find someone using the above ethnic slurs in most imaginable situations, it's going to be a near auto-ban anyway.

[cubweiser03]

I was at a bar last night with friends to watch the bball games. I was wearing one of my Bears shirts and to no surprise discussion about Cutler came up. A prevailinig topic was 'he has no weapons'. People discount Hester too much and ignore the TE's but whatever. You know who never has had WR weapons or stud #1 except for 1.5 seasons....Donovan Mcnabb.

[Jehrico]

A prevailinig topic was 'he has no weapons'. People discount Hester too much and ignore the TE's but whatever.

Hopefully opposing defenses will feel the same. I won't complain if they do.

 

Also, Forte was one of the top receiving running backs in the league too.

[Magnetic Curses]

weapons are borne out of time to throw and quarterbacks that can throw when that time comes.

 

it doesn't hurt to have a receiver that is 6-4 220 and runs a 4.3 with great routes. but not many of those types are out there. think of how many teams with a good quarterback not only have one good receiver, but two. now think of how many teams that have a revolving door at qb that have none.

 

besides, a lot of guys would love to have a TE like olsen and a RB like forte. incidentally, those were the guys that excelled last year, and, most usually were the only 2 reads that orton had time to make. think of what a cannon like cutler will do with a couple more seconds to throw and a couple more reads to make.

 

the receiver thing will take care of itself.