Re: 5/25 Cubs (Lilly) @ Pirates (Maholm) 12:35 PM WGN

[Mizzou]

Saying it's okay that Soriano dropped the ball because he hit the HR doesn't make sense. He's supposed to get hits and drive runners in. You can't say that because he did his job at the plate, it offsets his play in the 9th.

 

If Soriano catches the ball the Cubs win. He didn't, and they didn't. This loss is entirely on him.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Stupid Soriano and his 2-run HR.

 

All he needs to do... ALL he needs to do, is catch a routine fly ball that he's caught 1,000 times before, and we're all celebrating.

 

Yes, he hit the 2-run homer, but he also cost us the game, so that cancels out, don't you think?

2 runs > 1 run

 

Not buying this argument in the least.

 

 

I'm with ya here. The 2 >1 fallacy assumes we expect players to make the plays they should and do nothing with the bat. That's not true at all. We want them to make the plays in the field and provide something with the bat. Is Soriano's bat good enough to compensate for some miscues? yes. But for the status he's been given, I expect either more with the glove or more with the bat, or a little of both.

[illiniguy]

He was staring straight into the sun, it happens. It sucks, and there's not much you can do about it, especially when you already have sunglasses on. Now, the "well Bay caught a fly ball an inning later" is the argument where you question whether or not people has played baseball. Trajectory is everything in those situations.

I put it more on lou still, why the hell is he still in there. He can't field. Take him out and move Johnson over.

[Guest]

Stupid Soriano and his 2-run HR.

 

All he needs to do... ALL he needs to do, is catch a routine fly ball that he's caught 1,000 times before, and we're all celebrating.

 

Yes, he hit the 2-run homer, but he also cost us the game, so that cancels out, don't you think?

2 runs > 1 run

 

The difference is that he's expected to hit home runs. He shouldn't be congratulated for successfully doing the ONE thing he does well. He gets paid 18 mil a year, so he better hit home runs.

 

Stop acting like it evens out, because it doesn't.

So if Hoffpauir, making major league minimum, and hit a 2-run HR but dropped the same fly ball, he would have come out ahead?

 

And I never said it evened out. I said he came out ahead.

 

A player is expected to get hits sometimes. That's what they get paid to do. They're also paid to catch routine fly balls. Saying it's play to screw up a routine play because you did something else you're expected to do is silly.

 

Actually, I believe all Jon is saying is the loss doesn't solely or even primarily fall on Soriano's shoulders.

[Mizzou]

Dodges take a 2-1 lead over the poopybirds.

 

Come on Vance. You know better.

What's wrong with saying the poopybirds?

[UMFan83]

Second place Cubs.

 

Leave the team Soriano.

 

how did you feel a week ago

 

When he was hot? I still didn't like him. Someone described h im as Pre 1998 Sammy Sosa, and that thought has stuck with me. An OK player to have on the team I guess, but nothing we can't live without.

Edited May 25, 2008 by UMFan83

[Magnetic Curses]

bad loss, i think our luck has run out against the pirates.

[Jon]

A player is expected to get hits sometimes. That's what they get paid to do. They're also paid to catch routine fly balls. Saying it's play to screw up a routine play because you did something else you're expected to do is silly.

So if you think catching routine fly balls and hitting HRs are even in terms of expectations, one play that results in 2 runs should be more valuable than another play that results in 1 run.

[pitchcs]

Stupid Soriano and his 2-run HR.

 

All he needs to do... ALL he needs to do, is catch a routine fly ball that he's caught 1,000 times before, and we're all celebrating.

 

Yes, he hit the 2-run homer, but he also cost us the game, so that cancels out, don't you think?

2 runs > 1 run

 

Not buying this argument in the least.

1 run > 2 runs? I'm confused.

 

 

Not buying the argument that it somehow makes up for the fact he dropped a pop up to end the game, because it doesn't.

[Sosa21MVP]

Anybody else worried about the Dodgers sweeping us?

 

No, not at all.

[Guest]

Dodges take a 2-1 lead over the poopybirds.

 

Come on Vance. You know better.

What's wrong with saying the poopybirds?

 

It didn't use to say that.

[pitchcs]

Stupid Soriano and his 2-run HR.

 

All he needs to do... ALL he needs to do, is catch a routine fly ball that he's caught 1,000 times before, and we're all celebrating.

 

Yes, he hit the 2-run homer, but he also cost us the game, so that cancels out, don't you think?

2 runs > 1 run

 

The difference is that he's expected to hit home runs. He shouldn't be congratulated for successfully doing the ONE thing he does well. He gets paid 18 mil a year, so he better hit home runs.

 

Stop acting like it evens out, because it doesn't.

So if Hoffpauir, making major league minimum, and hit a 2-run HR but dropped the same fly ball, he would have come out ahead?

 

And I never said it evened out. I said he came out ahead.

 

A player is expected to get hits sometimes. That's what they get paid to do. They're also paid to catch routine fly balls. Saying it's play to screw up a routine play because you did something else you're expected to do is silly.

 

Actually, I believe all Jon is saying is the loss doesn't solely or even primarily fall on Soriano's shoulders.

 

 

I'd say that any time a player drops a pop up hit directly to them to cause extra innings is the "primary" reason for the loss. Obviously not solely, but definitely primary.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Phillies are up 15-6 over the Astros. They are going to end a series like we did where you lose the series while winning the run differential.

[dbeider]

I think the reaction to Soriano dropping the ball and overall this particular loss is pretty funny, including my own reaction when he dropped the ball.

 

The fact that this team has not won one series on the road other than the sweep in Pittsburgh is the issue.

[pitchcs]

A player is expected to get hits sometimes. That's what they get paid to do. They're also paid to catch routine fly balls. Saying it's play to screw up a routine play because you did something else you're expected to do is silly.

So if you think catching routine fly balls and hitting HRs are even in terms of expectations, one play that results in 2 runs should be more valuable than another play that results in 1 run.

 

 

They aren't even in expectations. One should be completed 99.8% of the time, the other 6% or so (estimating).

EDIT: Whoops, hits...so 28% of the time.

Edited May 25, 2008 by pitchcs

[sneakypower]

i'll never understand why everyone is terrified of the Cardinals and Astros

[illiniguy]

i'll never understand why everyone is terrified of the Cardinals and Astros

I think because they are in our division and winning games. That would just be a guess though.

[Jon]

Saying it's okay that Soriano dropped the ball because he hit the HR doesn't make sense. He's supposed to get hits and drive runners in. You can't say that because he did his job at the plate, it offsets his play in the 9th.

 

If Soriano catches the ball the Cubs win. He didn't, and they didn't. This loss is entirely on him.

If Marmol had struck him out, the Cubs would have won. Is the loss also entirely on him? Does nothing before that play matter? If not, how could the Cubs have the lead? A full game consists on more than 1 play.

 

Again, I'm not saying they offset. I'm saying Soriano still came out ahead.

[UMFan83]

i'll never understand why everyone is terrified of the Cardinals and Astros

 

Probably because its almost June and they are right there with us. That and some of us dont think we are as invincible as our record indicates. Maybe if our number 2 starter didn't have an ERA in the mid 5's I'd feel a little better

[17 Seconds]

I'm having flashbacks to 2004.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PIT/PIT200405281.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PIT/PIT200405282.shtml

[Guest]

It's not like Soriano just miffed on a fly ball or didn't go for a ball he should have (like earlier in the season). He lost a ball in the sun. Good lord, it happens to everyone who's played in the OF at some point and time. Soriano's other deficiencies are clouding some of your judgement.

[Guest]

Stupid Soriano and his 2-run HR.

 

All he needs to do... ALL he needs to do, is catch a routine fly ball that he's caught 1,000 times before, and we're all celebrating.

 

Yes, he hit the 2-run homer, but he also cost us the game, so that cancels out, don't you think?

2 runs > 1 run

 

The difference is that he's expected to hit home runs. He shouldn't be congratulated for successfully doing the ONE thing he does well. He gets paid 18 mil a year, so he better hit home runs.

 

Stop acting like it evens out, because it doesn't.

So if Hoffpauir, making major league minimum, and hit a 2-run HR but dropped the same fly ball, he would have come out ahead?

 

And I never said it evened out. I said he came out ahead.

 

A player is expected to get hits sometimes. That's what they get paid to do. They're also paid to catch routine fly balls. Saying it's play to screw up a routine play because you did something else you're expected to do is silly.

 

Actually, I believe all Jon is saying is the loss doesn't solely or even primarily fall on Soriano's shoulders.

 

 

I'd say that any time a player drops a pop up hit directly to them to cause extra innings is the "primary" reason for the loss. Obviously not solely, but definitely primary.

 

Primary!? The last play of the game isn't the only play of the game.

[Guest]

<3 Kershaw

[Mizzou]

Saying it's okay that Soriano dropped the ball because he hit the HR doesn't make sense. He's supposed to get hits and drive runners in. You can't say that because he did his job at the plate, it offsets his play in the 9th.

 

If Soriano catches the ball the Cubs win. He didn't, and they didn't. This loss is entirely on him.

If Marmol had struck him out, the Cubs would have won. Is the loss also entirely on him? Does nothing before that play matter? If not, how could the Cubs have the lead? A full game consists on more than 1 play.

 

Again, I'm not saying they offset. I'm saying Soriano still came out ahead.

What's your point then, that Soriano shouldn't be blamed for the loss? I see your logic, I just don't think it makes any sense. To me it's very simple... if he catches a routine fly ball, the game is over. It's his fault that the Cubs didn't win.

[Guest]

Saying it's okay that Soriano dropped the ball because he hit the HR doesn't make sense. He's supposed to get hits and drive runners in. You can't say that because he did his job at the plate, it offsets his play in the 9th.

 

If Soriano catches the ball the Cubs win. He didn't, and they didn't. This loss is entirely on him.

If Marmol had struck him out, the Cubs would have won. Is the loss also entirely on him? Does nothing before that play matter? If not, how could the Cubs have the lead? A full game consists on more than 1 play.

 

Again, I'm not saying they offset. I'm saying Soriano still came out ahead.

What's your point then, that Soriano shouldn't be blamed for the loss? I see your logic, I just don't think it makes any sense. To me it's very simple... if he catches a routine fly ball, the game is over. It's his fault that the Cubs didn't win.

 

No, it's not his fault the Cubs didn't win. There was more of the game to be played after the dropped popout. He made a play that greatly decreased the Cubs chances of winning.