Lou Pinella, What the hell are you doing?

[CUBZ99]

so when the Cubs are good we can't complain about anything. do I have this right? don't want to upset anyone's delicate sensibilities

 

I believe that just by being a Cub fan, we are entitled to (and should) complain whenever we choose.

[TheDude]

As I said in the game thread, Lou has to be one of the five worst managers in baseball.

 

It's fine to criticize the Cubs, but this is way over the top.

This is a message board. There is no such thing as moderation in the general population of a message board. There is only room for extremes and emotes.

[rocket]

and let the record show that once again z was horrible after coming off a high pitch count. hopefully lou learns his lesson.

[NCCubFan]

Agreed. We need to hit a stretch where we use Marmol 2x/week for a couple of weeks. Let the other guys pitch in the 8th and if we lose, we lose.

I agree. The Cubs have built up enough of a cushon they can afford to lose a game or two if that's what it takes to give Marmol a little rest. They're nowhere even close to being in any must-win situations. They'll be many more losses before the season ends anyway; nothing wrong with one or two of them being to give Marmol some rest.

[CubColtPacer]

and let the record show that once again z was horrible after coming off a high pitch count. hopefully lou learns his lesson.

 

Once again? Z had 5 starts last year coming off a high pitch count (120 or more) 4 of them were quality starts.

 

9 innings, 1 run

8 innings, 1 run

7 innings, 3 runs

6 2/3 innings, 0 runs

5 innings, 6 runs

 

for a total ERA of 2.77 after a high pitch count last year, which is quite a bit better than his ERA for the season last year.

 

Taking a quick look through game logs from previous seasons (when Z was over 120 with some regularity) it does not look like Z was noticeably worse coming off high pitch counts than any other time.

[rocket]

and let the record show that once again z was horrible after coming off a high pitch count. hopefully lou learns his lesson.

 

Once again? Z had 5 starts last year coming off a high pitch count (120 or more) 4 of them were quality starts.

 

9 innings, 1 run

8 innings, 1 run

7 innings, 3 runs

6 2/3 innings, 0 runs

5 innings, 6 runs

 

for a total ERA of 2.77 after a high pitch count last year, which is quite a bit better than his ERA for the season last year.

 

Taking a quick look through game logs from previous seasons (when Z was over 120 with some regularity) it does not look like Z was noticeably worse coming off high pitch counts than any other time.

 

i could have sworn someone once posted z's stats after big pitch counts and they weren't pretty. perhaps i misremembered.

[jersey cubs fan]

and let the record show that once again z was horrible after coming off a high pitch count. hopefully lou learns his lesson.

 

Once again? Z had 5 starts last year coming off a high pitch count (120 or more) 4 of them were quality starts.

 

9 innings, 1 run

8 innings, 1 run

7 innings, 3 runs

6 2/3 innings, 0 runs

5 innings, 6 runs

 

for a total ERA of 2.77 after a high pitch count last year, which is quite a bit better than his ERA for the season last year.

 

Taking a quick look through game logs from previous seasons (when Z was over 120 with some regularity) it does not look like Z was noticeably worse coming off high pitch counts than any other time.

 

i could have sworn someone once posted z's stats after big pitch counts and they weren't pretty. perhaps i misremembered.

 

I believe it was the last time he went 130 that he came off that with a few bad games in a row.

[Electron Blue]

and let the record show that once again z was horrible after coming off a high pitch count. hopefully lou learns his lesson.

 

Once again? Z had 5 starts last year coming off a high pitch count (120 or more) 4 of them were quality starts.

 

9 innings, 1 run

8 innings, 1 run

7 innings, 3 runs

6 2/3 innings, 0 runs

5 innings, 6 runs

 

for a total ERA of 2.77 after a high pitch count last year, which is quite a bit better than his ERA for the season last year.

 

Taking a quick look through game logs from previous seasons (when Z was over 120 with some regularity) it does not look like Z was noticeably worse coming off high pitch counts than any other time.

 

i could have sworn someone once posted z's stats after big pitch counts and they weren't pretty. perhaps i misremembered.

 

maybe you're thinking of Z's number in starts after getting extra rest. I believe those are pretty bad . . .

[inari]

Marmol's ERA in the last 30 days: 3.94 :?

[CubbieBum]

so when the Cubs are good we can't complain about anything. do I have this right? don't want to upset anyone's delicate sensibilities

 

might want to read all of my posts and not skim ... I have said I believe twice in this thread now he's made some mistakes and people can criticize those but to call him one of the worst managers or a bad manager when we are 16 games above .500 is just plain idiotic.

[inari]

so when the Cubs are good we can't complain about anything. do I have this right? don't want to upset anyone's delicate sensibilities

 

might want to read all of my posts and not skim ... I have said I believe twice in this thread now he's made some mistakes and people can criticize those but to call him one of the worst managers or a bad manager when we are 16 games above .500 is just plain idiotic.

 

Dusty Baker had us 16 games above .500, so why is it idiotic?

[Tracer Bullet]

so when the Cubs are good we can't complain about anything. do I have this right? don't want to upset anyone's delicate sensibilities

 

might want to read all of my posts and not skim ... I have said I believe twice in this thread now he's made some mistakes and people can criticize those but to call him one of the worst managers or a bad manager when we are 16 games above .500 is just plain idiotic.

 

not really

[David]

I'm not saying that I agree with the people that say Lou is terrible, but using the Cubs record as evidence that he's not is a beyond horrible way to argue the point.

 

You really would think Cubs fans would know better after Dusty Baker.

[Cubfanintheknow]

I just want to say that you know the season is going pretty well (so far) when there's a heated argument going on about what you can or cannot complain about.

[Tyrant]

I'm not saying that I agree with the people that say Lou is terrible, but using the Cubs record as evidence that he's not is a beyond horrible way to argue the point.

 

You really would think Cubs fans would know better after Dusty Baker.

 

Good point.

 

I think Lou is a fine manager, but using W-L record probably isn't the best way to prove that.

 

I give him credit for instilling a good approach with the team, and for appearing to be a pretty good judge of talent. For all the crowing about certain players not getting enough time, Lou has done a decent job of getting the right players into prominent roles (yes, I know someone is going to bring up Marquis or Reed Johnson or whatever).

 

Tactically, he has issues. But every major league manager has tactical issues. We just see Lou's more frequently because we watch the Cubs every day and are more invested in their success.

 

But I've said all this before, and no one cares.

[David]

I'm not saying that I agree with the people that say Lou is terrible, but using the Cubs record as evidence that he's not is a beyond horrible way to argue the point.

 

You really would think Cubs fans would know better after Dusty Baker.

 

Good point.

 

I think Lou is a fine manager, but using W-L record probably isn't the best way to prove that.

 

I give him credit for instilling a good approach with the team, and for appearing to be a pretty good judge of talent. For all the crowing about certain players not getting enough time, Lou has done a decent job of getting the right players into prominent roles (yes, I know someone is going to bring up Marquis or Reed Johnson or whatever).

 

Tactically, he has issues. But every major league manager has tactical issues. We just see Lou's more frequently because we watch the Cubs every day and are more invested in their success.

 

But I've said all this before, and no one cares.

 

 

I agree completely. I'm incredibly happy with the team's offensive approach now (outside of a few qualms with stealing bases and hit and runs and crap) and I think that's at the very least partially Lou's doing.

 

He really needs to figure out what the hell he's doing with the bullpen, though.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm not saying that I agree with the people that say Lou is terrible, but using the Cubs record as evidence that he's not is a beyond horrible way to argue the point.

 

You really would think Cubs fans would know better after Dusty Baker.

 

Good point.

 

I think Lou is a fine manager, but using W-L record probably isn't the best way to prove that.

 

I give him credit for instilling a good approach with the team, and for appearing to be a pretty good judge of talent. For all the crowing about certain players not getting enough time, Lou has done a decent job of getting the right players into prominent roles (yes, I know someone is going to bring up Marquis or Reed Johnson or whatever).

 

Tactically, he has issues. But every major league manager has tactical issues. We just see Lou's more frequently because we watch the Cubs every day and are more invested in their success.

 

But I've said all this before, and no one cares.

 

I don't really have a problem with his in-game tactics. Compared to Dusty he's a savant in that regard. It's mostly about usage and curious freak outs.

 

Marmol and Wood have been used a heck of a lot for a young kid and an injury prone veteran new to the relief game. And some guys are being used in situations where they are likely to fail. Then throw in the unnecessary extending of Zambrano and that sums it up.

 

Lou has done enough good that my reaction is more about surprise at the dumb things than outright anger like when Dusty pulled the same crap over and over.

[Electron Blue]

Good point.

 

I think Lou is a fine manager, but using W-L record probably isn't the best way to prove that.

 

I give him credit for instilling a good approach with the team, and for appearing to be a pretty good judge of talent. For all the crowing about certain players not getting enough time, Lou has done a decent job of getting the right players into prominent roles (yes, I know someone is going to bring up Marquis or Reed Johnson or whatever).

 

Tactically, he has issues. But every major league manager has tactical issues. We just see Lou's more frequently because we watch the Cubs every day and are more invested in their success.

 

But I've said all this before, and no one cares.

 

If this sort of discussion has a take-home message, the bolded is probably it, IMO.

[CuseCubFan69]

Good point.

 

I think Lou is a fine manager, but using W-L record probably isn't the best way to prove that.

 

I give him credit for instilling a good approach with the team, and for appearing to be a pretty good judge of talent. For all the crowing about certain players not getting enough time, Lou has done a decent job of getting the right players into prominent roles (yes, I know someone is going to bring up Marquis or Reed Johnson or whatever).

 

Tactically, he has issues. But every major league manager has tactical issues. We just see Lou's more frequently because we watch the Cubs every day and are more invested in their success.

 

But I've said all this before, and no one cares.

 

If this sort of discussion has a take-home message, the bolded is probably it, IMO.

 

And it's not usually everyone. No matter what you do sometimes someone is going to complain on how you did it, especially when you have a huge fan base like the Cubs. Plus, a guy may be sick and throwing up or whatever and that might be a reason why Lou or any manager makes a move that doesn't seem to make sense.

[TruffleShuffle]

my biggest complaint with lou is that he manages too many games with the short-term goal in mind of winning that game - see soto, theriot, marmol, wood overuse - and loses track of the big picture, which is keeping players fresh for the stretch run and the playoffs. i sure hope the cubs win the division by 10 games and can give some of the guys a break, because it sure doesn't look like lou is going to do this over the course of a season.

[Guest]

and let the record show that once again z was horrible after coming off a high pitch count. hopefully lou learns his lesson.

 

Once again? Z had 5 starts last year coming off a high pitch count (120 or more) 4 of them were quality starts.

 

9 innings, 1 run

8 innings, 1 run

7 innings, 3 runs

6 2/3 innings, 0 runs

5 innings, 6 runs

 

for a total ERA of 2.77 after a high pitch count last year, which is quite a bit better than his ERA for the season last year.

 

Taking a quick look through game logs from previous seasons (when Z was over 120 with some regularity) it does not look like Z was noticeably worse coming off high pitch counts than any other time.

 

i could have sworn someone once posted z's stats after big pitch counts and they weren't pretty. perhaps i misremembered.

 

It certainly was the case early in his career (2003-2004)...I remember Tim posting those numbers and they weren't that good.

[weis21]

my biggest complaint with lou is that he manages too many games with the short-term goal in mind of winning that game - see soto, theriot, marmol, wood overuse - and loses track of the big picture, which is keeping players fresh for the stretch run and the playoffs. i sure hope the cubs win the division by 10 games and can give some of the guys a break, because it sure doesn't look like lou is going to do this over the course of a season.

This is really my only problem with him as well. His handling of the pen last night was atrocious. He double switches and hit-and-runs way to often, but those are just some of those "old school" characteristics your going to get with some managers. As long as he doesn't single handedly ruin our pen *crosses fingers* I'm pretty happy with him.

[Tyrant]

my biggest complaint with lou is that he manages too many games with the short-term goal in mind of winning that game - see soto, theriot, marmol, wood overuse - and loses track of the big picture, which is keeping players fresh for the stretch run and the playoffs. i sure hope the cubs win the division by 10 games and can give some of the guys a break, because it sure doesn't look like lou is going to do this over the course of a season.

 

I agree with this. Some of his old-schooly moves drive me nuts (that removal of Lee in a double-switch was inexcusable). I also don't like the hits and runs.

 

There have been some valid points raised about Lou in the last few posts, and it's good discourse. They've definitely been more level-headed than some of the others I've seen, like "Lou is one of the five worst managers in baseball."

[soapy]

Lou's done a reasonable job aside from the bullpen usage. That's the only thing that's really gotten to me.

 

Some minor issues I've had are getting rest for Soto and Theriot. The Theriot thing is especially curious because the convinient excuse last year was that he broke down. Cedeno was red hot for a while and still couldn't sniff a spot at SS most of the time. They've (Lou and/or Hendry) specifically mentioned that Derosa is a candidate for "wearing down" when playing everyday. Between SS and 2B, Cedeno should be able to get 2-3 starts every week. I also would have liked to see Pie get more of a chance to start the season.

 

My biggest concern (as with any manager) coming into Lou's tenure was SP use/abuse. I've been relatively pleased in that regard despite the (IMO) poor handling of the Hill situation and Trachsel last year.

 

Lineup construction doesn't really get to me too much becuase I just don't think it matters much unless you're putting terrible hitters (Neifi, Macias, etc.) at the top of the order.

[C.C.]

His abuse of Marmol is just weird? He for the most part protects the starters really well, that's why it's so puzzling why he is so in favor of using Marmol every damn day!