Lou Pinella, What the hell are you doing?

[Keener98]

I thought Lou managed fine last night. Getting Hill out saved the game temporarily for the Cubs. If Marmol hadn't pitched more than one inning last game, he would have come in for Fox. Those who wanted Marmol in the 11th are ridiculous because I bet you are the same people that complain that he is being overused. Plus if the game stayed tied, you would have to use Marmol again, which is dangerous, or use a position player, or use Marquis. The circumstances were difficult and you can't manage the wya you do in a 9 inning game.

Lou made the circumstances even more difficult than they needed to be. Marmol was already up in the pen so use him.

[17 Seconds]

I thought Lou managed fine last night. Getting Hill out saved the game temporarily for the Cubs. If Marmol hadn't pitched more than one inning last game, he would have come in for Fox. Those who wanted Marmol in the 11th are ridiculous because I bet you are the same people that complain that he is being overused. Plus if the game stayed tied, you would have to use Marmol again, which is dangerous, or use a position player, or use Marquis. The circumstances were difficult and you can't manage the wya you do in a 9 inning game.

 

How about when he used a long reliever for one out in a game where the bullpen was getting crushed? How about when he put in Fontenot for Cedeno for NO reason?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I thought Lou managed fine last night. Getting Hill out saved the game temporarily for the Cubs. If Marmol hadn't pitched more than one inning last game, he would have come in for Fox. Those who wanted Marmol in the 11th are ridiculous because I bet you are the same people that complain that he is being overused. Plus if the game stayed tied, you would have to use Marmol again, which is dangerous, or use a position player, or use Marquis. The circumstances were difficult and you can't manage the way you do in a 9 inning game.

 

What lost the game was a lack of hitting.

 

Marmol would have been more easily available if he hadn't pitched in a blowout two games before.

 

It's the stupidity that leads to the inevitable bad move that gets the Cubs, not the inevitably bad move. They've done this time and again.

[CubColtPacer]

Hill-agreed, although Hill would have struggled with his control any day you threw him, the coaching staff didn't do him any favors. So his problems last night weren't all on the coaching staff, but they definitely share the blame.

 

Marshall-agreed, although what do you do? Do you let Lieber try to finish the inning there? 4 out of the 5 previous balls hit off Lieber were hit decently hard. It was about time for him to go, and then Marshall's spot came up that next inning.

 

As far as Cedeno and Fontenot, Fontenot came into the game to save the bullpen. Lou decided Howry needed to go 2 innings, and he could have only gone 1 if they had left Cedeno in the game because Cedeno was locked into the 9 spot, while Fontenot could go into the 4 spot. I agree with Lou on this one. They needed Howry at that point to go 2 innings with what they had left behind him in the bullpen.

I would have agreed with it even if it didn't work, but it did. Howry pitched 2 strong innings, and Fontenot got on base twice in 3 tries last night.

 

If you bring in Marmol, you're just creating a worse situation down the road. They didn't want to use Marmol for more than one inning last night, so if you bring in Marmol to relieve Fox and he gets out of the 11th, now you have to use Marquis in the 12th and mess up your rotation. Leaving Fox in was the only course of action at that point.

 

As far as Sori in LF, you had to see during the drills and fielding practice that his range was really poor right now. That was a really bad decision by Lou to leave him in there on Thursday.

 

Regarding Marmol, you try to win the game you are playing and worry about the future after the game. We have some guys in minors who could have came up and made a spot start if Marquis had been needed last night. Also, this goes back to the whole Marshall thing. Had Lou let him face more than 1 guy, he could have pushed everybody back in the bullpen, but no for some reason Marshall is only allowed to face a lefty. Same goes for the Cedeno/Fontenot thing, it was a product of Lous bad decision making that made this a neccessity.

 

I might agree with you on the general point about Marmol, although when I think about the specific game last night I still think I have more faith in Fox/Marmol than Marmol/Marquis. As average as Marquis is as a starter, he has proven to be really bad out of the pen during his career.

 

As for Marshall, the question remains. Do you leave Lieber in to try to get out of the inning? Do you double-switch when Marshall comes into the game? (which isn't the best part of the batting order for it. The Cubs had just finished with the 5 spot in the order, so there really isn't anybody to double-switch unless you are willing to take Fukudome out in order for Marshall to pitch an extra inning, which I'm not). Those are the only two ways that Marshall could have avoided only pitching to 1 batter, because you had to pinch-hit for him with a runner on.

 

 

That early in the game I dont think pinch hitting for him would be neccessary.

 

It was the 7th inning with the Cubs down by a run. I don't think you can be throwing away chances to score when you're down that late in the game.

 

I was thinking it was an inning or 2 earlier, but heres another question. Why do you bring in Wuertz as the 1st guy out of the pen, instead of our long man Lieber? You could have went with Lieber and Marshall as combo long men, and maybe saved our middle relief for later in the game like normal.

 

Lieber is not used to coming in with runners on base. He is a starter who is used to a little margin for error and being able to slowly settle in, and he is hittable. Bringing him into a bases loaded, 2 out situation isn't a good situation for him.

[SouthSideRyan]

Just from last nights game, lets start with having a starting pitcher, who has a history of control problems, sit for 9 days in between starts. Yea good call Lou, that will help him throw strikes.

 

Ridiculous. Hill is a frigging major-league pitcher. He should be able to throw strikes after skipping a start. He had side sessions and bullpen work. It's not like he didn't pick up a baseball for six months.

 

Why are people here to ready to apologize for certain players and so ready to jump all over coaches?

 

Because the Cubs' handling of Rich Hill relative to the horrible performance of our 2 cagey veterans who've also sucked is absurd???

 

BUT BUT BUT Marquis and Lilly have track records!!!

 

SO DOES HILL!!! Hill was a very good pitcher the last year and a half, but for some reason he's been jerked around since day 1 this year. Lou Piniella gave up on Hill in game 3 last year, and he's never forgiven him for it. Lou is a huge douchebag and doesn't know what the f he's doing.

[Tyrant]

Lou is a huge douchebag and doesn't know what the f he's doing.

 

Thanks for the needless hysterics.

[SouthSideRyan]

If you were to go look over game logs throughout the years, and take every pitcher who is pitching on 7,8 or even 9 days rest Ill bet you control has been a problem.

 

He hasn't been throwing strikes ever since he showed up in Mesa this year.

 

To be honest, I'm worried he's hiding an injury.

 

his velocity seems to be fine. I think he's mechanically a mess right now. Give him some time in AAA to get back on track. He'll be fine.

 

Listening to Lou last night, I think he's going down. He said something to the effect of "I can start Hill anymore, not like this" or whatever.

 

Rich Hill's not gonna see the big leagues again til August at the earliest, and it'll probably cost us the division.

[17 Seconds]

lol @ today's lineup.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

If nothing else, Lou Piniella is a liar and I'd gladly call him one to his face. So much for finding starts for Cedeno.

[Keener98]

Game hasnt even started yet and yet Lous already done something to make Saturdays list. Dont worry Im sure todays list will grow as the game goes on.

[Outshined_One]

The Hill thing I can understand to a certain degree. He hasn't looked the same as he did last season.

 

However, what drives me nuts are the following things:

 

1) Where has this been with Ted Lilly and Jason Marquis? Both have been pretty bad this season, but I haven't heard anything from the Cubs about demoting them to the bullpen or putting them on the DL to work out whatever issues are bothering them. Yet, with Hill, the team pushes the panic button? I don't get it.

 

2) Starting Jon Lieber against the Reds on Wednesday. Lieber is good against right handed hitters, but throws batting practice against lefties. The Reds have very good left handed hitters in their lineup. What's worse, Lieber hasn't been stretched out this season. I have a lot of trouble seeing how he'll last past the third inning. Why call up Gallagher and throw him into the long man role when he could most likely pitch better than Lieber at this point?

 

3) Ryan Theriot.

 

4) Mike Fontenot.

 

5) Ronny Cedeno's mysterious disappearance.

 

6) Alfonso Soriano not being sent down to the minors to re-acclimate to playing in the field and hitting.

 

7) Putting Soriano back in the leadoff spot on his return.

 

8) Felix Pie's mysterious disappearance.

 

9) Reed Johnson continuing to hit against right handers.

 

This team hasn't been making sense for awhile now...

[Keener98]

O_O I wonder if Hill not looking like he did last season has anything to do with our brilliant manager trying to change his mechanics?

[Outshined_One]

O_O I wonder if Hill not looking like he did last season has anything to do with our brilliant manager trying to change his mechanics?

 

Somebody (I think Bob's Keeper?) had a chart of Hill's pitches and release points comparing this season to last season. They clearly tweaked his delivery.

 

I remember there was a fight between Larry Rotchschild and one of the Cubs' minor league pitching coaches a few years ago over Hill's mechanics, with the coach basically calling Rothschild a complete and total idiot for messing with Hill's mechanics on his call-up and having to re-adjust Hill when he was sent back down. I want to say this was in 2006?

[Rob]

A good manager wont win you many games, but a bad manager can lose you a bunch.

 

Lou is managing very, very badly right now.

[Keener98]

O_O I wonder if Hill not looking like he did last season has anything to do with our brilliant manager trying to change his mechanics?

 

Somebody (I think Bob's Keeper?) had a chart of Hill's pitches and release points comparing this season to last season. They clearly tweaked his delivery.

 

I remember there was a fight between Larry Rotchschild and one of the Cubs' minor league pitching coaches a few years ago over Hill's mechanics, with the coach basically calling Rothschild a complete and total idiot for messing with Hill's mechanics on his call-up and having to re-adjust Hill when he was sent back down. I want to say this was in 2006?

 

Yea I dont understand why you change anything on a guy who was in the top 30-40 pitchers in all of baseball last year.

[Jon]

If nothing else, Lou Piniella is a liar and I'd gladly call him one to his face. So much for finding starts for Cedeno.

It's okay that Cedeno isn't playing even though he's the hot hand. If we learned anything from Dusty, it's that putting players in favorable matchups so they can succeed (fail in limited playing time) trumps playing the hot hand if that hot hand is a young player with a ceiling.

[Bobson Dugnutt]

For all the (well-deserved) criticism Dusty received about his handling of young players, Lou has been just as bad. Pie, Cedeno, Marshall, Hill...it's amazing Soto wasn't benched in favor of Blanco after his K streak.

 

ETA: His handling of Murton last year was terrible as well, and it took for too long for him to give Soto ABs over Jason flipping Kendall.

[TruffleShuffle]

while everyone complains about cedeno - where is pie in today's lineup? last time i checked, kyle lohse was a right handed pitcher, which means that felix pie should be playing, not reed johnson.

[Jon]

while everyone complains about cedeno - where is pie in today's lineup? last time i checked, kyle lohse was a right handed pitcher, which means that felix pie should be playing, not reed johnson.

Next time the Cubs face Cy Young, I'm sure we'll see Pie in the lineup. But we all know Felix would be in over his head against these "regular" pitchers.

[Keener98]

while everyone complains about cedeno - where is pie in today's lineup? last time i checked, kyle lohse was a right handed pitcher, which means that felix pie should be playing, not reed johnson.

 

 

I dont think you get many arguments. My thing with Cedeno is Lou flat out said he was going to get him in the lineup, but even with ARam out, he still doesnt.

[TruffleShuffle]

while everyone complains about cedeno - where is pie in today's lineup? last time i checked, kyle lohse was a right handed pitcher, which means that felix pie should be playing, not reed johnson.

 

 

I dont think you get many arguments. My thing with Cedeno is Lou flat out said he was going to get him in the lineup, but even with ARam out, he still doesnt.

 

i wasn't referring so much to that. the cedeno hand-wringing is much more prevalent on this board than the concern about pie's lack of playing time, but at least the cubs have a SS who is hitting well to this point. reed johnson hasn't been bad but he hasn't been good either - he's been pretty much what you'd expect him to be.

 

also, if i recall correctly, the cubs did say that felix pie was their everyday CF, which apparently lasted all of two weeks.

[Keener98]

while everyone complains about cedeno - where is pie in today's lineup? last time i checked, kyle lohse was a right handed pitcher, which means that felix pie should be playing, not reed johnson.

 

 

I dont think you get many arguments. My thing with Cedeno is Lou flat out said he was going to get him in the lineup, but even with ARam out, he still doesnt.

 

i wasn't referring so much to that. the cedeno hand-wringing is much more prevalent on this board than the concern about pie's lack of playing time, but at least the cubs have a SS who is hitting well to this point. reed johnson hasn't been bad but he hasn't been good either - he's been pretty much what you'd expect him to be.

 

also, if i recall correctly, the cubs did say that felix pie was their everyday CF, which apparently lasted all of two weeks.

 

You wont get any arguments from me. There has been plenty of us saying Pie is getting screwed around and should be playing regularly if they expect him to contribute. The Cedeno hand wringing has to do with the fact the guy is OPS'ing over a 1.000 and still cant buy a start, even when our starting 3rd baseman is out.

[cheapseats]

Just from last nights game, lets start with having a starting pitcher, who has a history of control problems, sit for 9 days in between starts. Yea good call Lou, that will help him throw strikes.

 

Ridiculous. Hill is a frigging major-league pitcher. He should be able to throw strikes after skipping a start.

 

There's plenty of evidence that shorter periods in between starts are beneficial for starting pitchers.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Marmol is pitching with a six-run lead as I type.

 

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Keener98]

HAHAHAHAHA first we use Marmol in a 19-5 game this week, and that is reasoning why we let Fox go 2 innings Fri night. Now we use him in a 9-3 game, when we could use Gallagher, or maybe even Marshall since he threw 1 freaking pitch last night. Oh wait Marshall can only face lefties.

 

 

Im thinking this thread may need stickied cause theres going to be alot more to add here Im afraid.