Seattle Newspaper: Cubs possibly interested in Bedard

[rawaction]

Why is it laughable that a prospect failed that people were excited about? The end result doesn't mean that player should have never been highly regarded in the first place. It just means they didn't work out or were a "bust" if you prefer.

 

Just because Patterson, Choi and Hill didn't make it doesn't mean they didn't have the talent to do so. And if definitely doesn't mean people are stupid (or whatever adjective) for believing they could be great.

[UMFan83]

Why is it laughable that a prospect failed that people were excited about? The end result doesn't mean that player should have never been highly regarded in the first place. It just means they didn't work out or were a "bust" if you prefer.

 

Just because Patterson, Choi and Hill didn't make it doesn't mean they didn't have the talent to do so. And if definitely doesn't mean people are stupid (or whatever adjective) for believing they could be great.

 

Woah woah woah. I didn't say that people weren't justified for their attitudes towards top prospects. I was in that boat too. I'm just saying its funny to look back at players who we were all going crazy about who didn't pan out. You don't think its funny to look back at 2003 and see the types of trades people were turning down because they involved Bobby Hill? I feel like I'm fighting both sides of this argument now.

[Tyrant]

you cant compare them dont pretend you can jesus

 

Oh and I'm not Jesus but I appreciate the comparison.

 

Sometimes I read Meph and think he sounds like Napoleon Dynamite.

[davearm2]

IF we can get Bedard without giving up Pie or Hill i'm all for it. Think they would bite on Murton, Marshall, Gallagher, and a 4th?

 

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes.

 

Felix Pie first 177 AB:

.215/.270/.333

 

Alex Rodriguez first 184 AB:

.223/.270/.348

 

Boy, I bet the Mariners are glad that they didn't give up and trade him away after the first 184 AB.

 

what a [expletive] comparison

 

let's see.....Pie was a decent prospect who was 22. Rodriguez was the best prospect in the game, probably the best prospect in the history of the game -- even better than Griffey Jr, and was 18.

 

 

you cant compare them dont pretend you can jesus

 

Somehow I think my point went way over your head. I'm simply saying that over 180 ABs, there is absolutely no way you can say Felix Pie is a bust. I then found an example of a player who had similar numbers and obviously changed that around quickly. Felix obviously does not have the credentials that ARod did, nor am I even coming close to making that point. But Felix is not Ronny Cedeno or some other lightly regarded prospect either. He has consistantly been among the top prospects in baseball according to Baseball America. That alone should state that you shouldn't use his first 177 freaking ABs to determine how he is going to do the rest of his baseball career. Get it now??

 

Oh and I'm not Jesus but I appreciate the comparison.

Actually it's pretty astonishing that someone would read the original quote and somehow conclude that Pie is being compared to ARod.

 

The point is obviously not anywhere close to that. The point is that the first few hundred ABs of a player's career are usually a terrible indicator of what their entire career will turn out like.

[davearm2]

Go through the list and for every Zambrano and Hill there are five Jason Dubois', five Hee Seop Choi's, five Corey Patterson's, five Ryan Harvey's, etc. I've been watching this board for years and seeing people say we can't possibly trade Dubois, Patterson, etc.

 

A) One Zambrano for every five Dubois is probably an excellenct ratio.

 

B) You could not have possibly seen people say we can't possibly trading Dubois. It just never happened. The revisionist history of Dubois has gotten out of control. Dubois was never a big time prospect that everybody loved. Dubois was a guy some people thought could be halfway decent if they had 2 other solid outfielders to play alongside him. He was never an untouchable or anything close. He was never a darling. He was simply a guy people were willing to live so that the team could spend money on actual players. I was actually one of his bigger supporters on the board, but I never envisioned an OF of Dubois, Hollandsworth, Burnitz and Patterson. Dubois was just a body to fill a spot. Had they gone after a real corner OF, perhaps they could have lived with Dubois numbers. As it turns out, he never even came close to fulfilling the rather small expectations people actually had for him.

Jersey I think you're underestimating the level of DuBois hype that existed after the guy lit up the PCL to the tune of 31 HRs and a 1.000+ OPS in 2004.

 

Those numbers are much like the ones Soto just put up in '07, and the resulting enthusiasm for DuBois heading into 2005 was on the same level that we're seeing for Soto in '08.

 

I distinctly recall people hyperventilating over the prospect of Hollandsworth taking ABs from DuBois. Lots of folks were awfully gung-ho.

[jersey cubs fan]

Jersey I think you're underestimating the level of DuBois hype that existed after the guy lit up the PCL to the tune of 31 HRs and a 1.000+ OPS in 2004.

 

Those numbers are much like the ones Soto just put up in '07, and the resulting enthusiasm for DuBois heading into 2005 was on the same level that we're seeing for Soto in '08.

 

I distinctly recall people hyperventilating over the prospect of Hollandsworth taking ABs from DuBois. Lots of folks were awfully gung-ho.

 

Dubois hype didn't compare to Soto.

 

People didn't want Hollandsworth getting playing time over him because Todd was the mediocre veteran that was a known quantity, while Dubois was the unknown, not because they were convinced he was the next big thing. There were expectations for Dubois to do better than he eventually did, but it was not what is being portrayed here.

Edited December 17, 2007 by jersey cubs fan

[SouthSideRyan]

Those numbers are much like the ones Soto just put up in '07, and the resulting enthusiasm for DuBois heading into 2005 was on the same level that we're seeing for Soto in '08.

 

Definitely not true. Dubois was old doing that in AAA. Geo was not.

 

I distinctly recall people hyperventilating over the prospect of Hollandsworth taking ABs from DuBois. Lots of folks were awfully gung-ho.

 

And there's the key point. It was Todd Hollandsworth that was pissing people off a lot more than a lack of Jason Dubois.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Jersey I think you're underestimating the level of DuBois hype that existed after the guy lit up the PCL to the tune of 31 HRs and a 1.000+ OPS in 2004.

 

Those numbers are much like the ones Soto just put up in '07, and the resulting enthusiasm for DuBois heading into 2005 was on the same level that we're seeing for Soto in '08.

 

I distinctly recall people hyperventilating over the prospect of Hollandsworth taking ABs from DuBois. Lots of folks were awfully gung-ho.

Another thing to consider here is part of Soto's hype is centered around the fact that he's very good at his position defensively. I don't expect 389/433/667 over a full season from him by any means, but there are plenty of signs pointing to him having a much better translation to the MLB because of his overall game. DuBois was always a 1-trick pony.

[CubColtPacer]

Those numbers are much like the ones Soto just put up in '07, and the resulting enthusiasm for DuBois heading into 2005 was on the same level that we're seeing for Soto in '08.

 

Definitely not true. Dubois was old doing that in AAA. Geo was not.

 

I distinctly recall people hyperventilating over the prospect of Hollandsworth taking ABs from DuBois. Lots of folks were awfully gung-ho.

 

And there's the key point. It was Todd Hollandsworth that was pissing people off a lot more than a lack of Jason Dubois.

 

Dubois was a little less than 10 months older than Soto was in their big years in the minors. I certainly don't think that qualifies one to be old and one to be not old.

 

The better reason of course is positional scarcity. An 800 OPS for Soto with his defense would mean the Cubs have a greatly above average catcher. An 800 OPS for Dubois playing a below average left field would make him a below average left fielder overall.

[davearm2]

Those numbers are much like the ones Soto just put up in '07, and the resulting enthusiasm for DuBois heading into 2005 was on the same level that we're seeing for Soto in '08.

 

Definitely not true. Dubois was old doing that in AAA. Geo was not.

Not sure I'm real sold on the age argument.

 

For one, the difference is only a year (DuBois 25 in '04; Soto 24 in '07)

 

For another, DuBois was getting his first crack at AAA, while Soto was spending his third straight year at AAA.

 

I guess I just recall things differently that you guys, because I recall people being awfully excited to add a (perceived) middle of the order thumper to the Cubs' lineup, despite his well-recognized defensive and baserunning shortcomings.

[Ryno12]

Somehow I think my point went way over your head. I'm simply saying that over 180 ABs, there is absolutely no way you can say Felix Pie is a bust. I then found an example of a player who had similar numbers and obviously changed that around quickly. Felix obviously does not have the credentials that ARod did, nor am I even coming close to making that point. But Felix is not Ronny Cedeno or some other lightly regarded prospect either. He has consistantly been among the top prospects in baseball according to Baseball America. That alone should state that you shouldn't use his first 177 freaking ABs to determine how he is going to do the rest of his baseball career. Get it now??

 

Oh and I'm not Jesus but I appreciate the comparison.

pie sucks, ronnys better

 

I'm just trying to figure out where Meph's dislike for Pie is coming from. Pie has a solid track record throughout the Minors at below or at age-appropriate levels, plays above average defense, and shows potential to hit for power in a position where power is ussually an added bonus.

 

I'm not saying Pie is going to develop into a great player, but I don't see how you can advocate for Cedeno, and rag on Pie. Cedeno is probably a better option than Theriot, but that's not saying much. What other than 177 ML abs and a bad Dominican League showing are you basing the "Pie sucks" statement on.

[CUBZ99]

Those numbers are much like the ones Soto just put up in '07, and the resulting enthusiasm for DuBois heading into 2005 was on the same level that we're seeing for Soto in '08.

 

Definitely not true. Dubois was old doing that in AAA. Geo was not.

Not sure I'm real sold on the age argument.

 

For one, the difference is only a year (DuBois 25 in '04; Soto 24 in '07)

 

For another, DuBois was getting his first crack at AAA, while Soto was spending his third straight year at AAA.

 

I guess I just recall things differently that you guys, because I recall people being awfully excited to add a (perceived) middle of the order thumper to the Cubs' lineup, despite his well-recognized defensive and baserunning shortcomings.

 

How did this discussion go from the Cubs being unwilling to trade their top prospects to a comparison of Dubois and Soto? Neither one of those guys are that highly thought of and if they were rated in the top five Cubs prospects at any time it was more of an indication of how weak the Cubs farm system is/was.

[Athletics36]

Pie, Gallagher, Cedeno, Ceda, Veal, and Roquet for Bedard and Roberts.

 

A net gain of only one 40-man roster guy for them.

 

Actually this would be a gain of 3 as Gallagher, Pie and Cedeno are on the 40 man

[rawaction]

Pie, Gallagher, Cedeno, Ceda, Veal, and Roquet for Bedard and Roberts.

 

A net gain of only one 40-man roster guy for them.

 

Actually this would be a gain of 3 as Gallagher, Pie and Cedeno are on the 40 man

 

They are losing 2.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Pie, Gallagher, Cedeno, Ceda, Veal, and Roquet for Bedard and Roberts.

 

A net gain of only one 40-man roster guy for them.

 

Actually this would be a gain of 3 as Gallagher, Pie and Cedeno are on the 40 man

 

Net gain of 1, they lose Bedard and Roberts.

[wilk]

I'm just trying to figure out where Meph's dislike for Pie is coming from.

 

He could support it but he doesn't feel like it. A luxury you have when you fool yourself into thinking you're smarter than you are is never having to prove you're right nor accept you're wrong - and if you come out looking like an idiot you don't have to care because you're a genius and they're the idiot, Jesus! Meph takes to the Bart Simpson "I can do that but I don't wanna!" school of proof.

[David]

Don't forget the Creature threads/sigs.

[cubfan]

Pie, Gallagher, Cedeno, Ceda, Veal, and Roquet for Bedard and Roberts.

 

A net gain of only one 40-man roster guy for them.

 

Actually this would be a gain of 3 as Gallagher, Pie and Cedeno are on the 40 man

 

 

Actually, it would be a net gain of only one since the O's can subtract Bedard and Roberts from their 40 man.

[CubColtPacer]

Those numbers are much like the ones Soto just put up in '07, and the resulting enthusiasm for DuBois heading into 2005 was on the same level that we're seeing for Soto in '08.

 

Definitely not true. Dubois was old doing that in AAA. Geo was not.

Not sure I'm real sold on the age argument.

 

For one, the difference is only a year (DuBois 25 in '04; Soto 24 in '07)

 

For another, DuBois was getting his first crack at AAA, while Soto was spending his third straight year at AAA.

 

I guess I just recall things differently that you guys, because I recall people being awfully excited to add a (perceived) middle of the order thumper to the Cubs' lineup, despite his well-recognized defensive and baserunning shortcomings.

 

How did this discussion go from the Cubs being unwilling to trade their top prospects to a comparison of Dubois and Soto? Neither one of those guys are that highly thought of and if they were rated in the top five Cubs prospects at any time it was more of an indication of how weak the Cubs farm system is/was.

 

Soto is Number 2 on the Cubs prospects list for both BA and Sickels. This is for a farm system that cannot really be labeled as strong, but is probably closer to average than weak. Certainly if you were able to add 3 prospects that would be graded higher than Soto to the Cubs system (making him 5th, the mininum criteria for your statement) the Cubs system would be graded highly. I think you're underrating Soto's projection right now, and I'm not even one of his huge fans. His positional value is just too much to be ignored, even if he regresses quite a bit with the bat.

[imb]

I'm just trying to figure out where Meph's dislike for Pie is coming from.

 

He could support it but he doesn't feel like it. A luxury you have when you fool yourself into thinking you're smarter than you are is never having to prove you're right nor accept you're wrong - and if you come out looking like an idiot you don't have to care because you're a genius and they're the idiot, Jesus! Meph takes to the Bart Simpson "I can do that but I don't wanna!" school of proof.

 

Wait what post is this attacking

[Clem Fandango]

I'm just trying to figure out where Meph's dislike for Pie is coming from.

 

He could support it but he doesn't feel like it. A luxury you have when you fool yourself into thinking you're smarter than you are is never having to prove you're right nor accept you're wrong - and if you come out looking like an idiot you don't have to care because you're a genius and they're the idiot, Jesus! Meph takes to the Bart Simpson "I can do that but I don't wanna!" school of proof.

 

Wait what post is this attacking

 

Meph wrote "Pie sucks, Ronny's better" or something.

[imb]

I'm just trying to figure out where Meph's dislike for Pie is coming from.

 

He could support it but he doesn't feel like it. A luxury you have when you fool yourself into thinking you're smarter than you are is never having to prove you're right nor accept you're wrong - and if you come out looking like an idiot you don't have to care because you're a genius and they're the idiot, Jesus! Meph takes to the Bart Simpson "I can do that but I don't wanna!" school of proof.

 

Wait what post is this attacking

 

Meph wrote "Pie sucks, Ronny's better" or something.

 

Oh, a simple "I disagree, here's why" would have probably worked out better.

[SouthSideRyan]

Huh, I thought Dubois was older than that.

[Tyrant]

Wait what post is this attacking

 

I think this one.

[imb]

Wait what post is this attacking

 

I think this one.

 

I clicked that and immediately fear a rickroll

 

I need to be smarter